Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

Options
1…231232234236237…334

Comments

  • Options
    #6992
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    phil1nj wrote: »
    The IBM shares will generate income via a dividend for me. What income does a house (my home/primary residence) generate for me? Especially one in negative equity?

    Okay - substitute widgets for IBM shares (or non dividend paying shares for IBM shares).

    The house isn't worth 300k - maybe it will be someday soon, maybe not - but it's taxed and valued at it's actual market value - 200k

    The dividends are a red herring in any case - the value of the shares would take the dividends into account - they're still only valued at 200k. You could take in a renter in your house to generate extra income too - but it's not going to change the valuation on your house.


  • Options
    #6993
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    I m not going to pay my charge as the council don't offer me services I don't already pay for, or pay privately for. You asked if I used roads. Why did you ask that?

    You said you dont avail of any of the Council's services, so I assumed then you dont use the roads pretty clear too when I said it originally


  • Options
    #6994
    phil1nj
    Registered Users Posts: 716 ✭✭✭phil1nj


    alastair wrote: »
    Okay - substitute widgets for IBM shares (or non dividend paying shares for IBM shares).

    The house isn't worth 300k - maybe it will be someday soon, maybe not - but it's taxed and valued at it's actual market value - 200k

    Right so, to continue the shares analogy, if I sell my 300K shares at a market price of 200K (-100K down from teh purchase price). I can offset CGT against these shares. Surely I should be able to offset my property tax against the current value of the house i.e. market value of 200k against the 300k I paid for it. Therefore my liability is 100k (less than market value and less than what I paid for it).

    This then leads to the next argument i.e. that a property only generates wealth when it is sold. Same as shares are only liable for CGT when they are sold. Surely then a property should only be taxed when it is sold as a) it doesn't generate any wealth whilst I am living in it b) who can rightly determine the value of the property at any time (especially a property market in free fall a la Ireland 2012)


  • Options
    #6995
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    phil1nj wrote: »
    Right so, to continue the shares analogy, if I sell my 300K shares at a market price of 200K (-100K down from teh purchase price). I can offset CGT against these shares. Surely I should be able to offset my property tax against the current value of the house i.e. market value of 200k against the 300k I paid for it. Therefore my liability is 100k (less than market value and less than what I paid for it).

    This then leads to the next argument i.e. that a property only generates wealth when it is sold. Same as shares are only liable for CGT when they are sold. Surely then a property should only be taxed when it is sold as a) it doesn't generate any wealth whilst I am living in it b) who can rightly determine the value of the property at any time (especially a property market in free fall a la Ireland 2012)

    You can seemingly opt for an offset on the upcoming tiered property tax until the sale of the property. Or at least that was the position stated by the FG spokesperson on Drivetime the other day. It makes no sense to apply the same arrangement to an annual 100 euro charge.

    Revenue can be generated from your home through renting out.

    The rest of the world don't seem to have a problem tackling how to value a property for taxation purposes. I doubt we're that special.


  • Options
    #6996
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    donalg1 wrote: »
    LA's receive funding from more areas than just your motor tax, this money is then divided up between local authorities with each section being given their budget allocation by the DOE each year so it is a collection of sources that provide money for the maintenance of roads.

    Maybe you should research how LA's obtain there funding each year before you start posting about their finances, just an idea

    If the roads cost 500 million to maintain, and motoring taxes provide 500 million, if they spend that 500 million on building playgrounds, and take the 500 million to maintain roads from income tax, well, there is your front pocket back pocket thing.

    The same actual €50 euro note you hand in at the motor tax office does not have to be handed to the fella filling pot holes, for that €50 to have been paid.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #6997
    Orando Broom
    Registered Users Posts: 3,351 ✭✭✭Orando Broom


    alastair wrote: »
    Tax evasion - illegal - you don't pay applicable taxes.
    Tax avoidance - legal - you ensure they aren't applicable to you.

    It is your duty as a citizen to actively avoid paying tax. It is a key component of the system in fact.


  • Options
    #6998
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    If the roads cost 500 million to maintain, and motoring taxes provide 500 million, if they spend that 500 million on building playgrounds, and take the 500 million to maintain roads from income tax, well, there is your front pocket back pocket thing.

    The same actual €50 euro note you hand in at the motor tax office does not have to be handed to the fella filling pot holes, for that €50 to have been paid.

    Who exactly is this supposed to be a response to?

    Do motor taxes get applied solely to local authorities? No they don't.
    Are Household Charge taxes applied solely to local authorities? Yes they are.

    Choose whatever pocket you like.


  • Options
    #6999
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Orando Broom wrote: »
    It is your duty as a citizen to actively avoid paying tax. It is a key component of the system in fact.
    Not sure what the basis for that is, but anyway...

    Its your duty as a citizen to pay your lawful taxes - like the Household charge.


  • Options
    #7000
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    DoesNotCompute wrote: »
    Seen Mick Wally driving down Westland Row past Pearse station this morning, in his BMW jeep. (Amazingly, he wasn't driving into oncoming traffic this time)

    Nice to see the downtrodden working class hero can still afford to keep his jeep on the road by not paying his taxes.

    Couldn't give a toss about any politician. I'm on my own on this. I don't need any lefties or righties to convince me that this tax is wrong. I feel it in me bones.


  • Options
    #7001
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    alastair wrote: »
    You'll end up paying your tax, along with whatever fines are applicable.

    Property taxes are happening regardless of your opinion of the govt and their 'manners'. We need to build a sustainable revenue model, and property tax forms a part of that model.

    Really. Would we have been told the same story if this was being introduced during the "brown envelope planning spree " that many of the same politicians of all hues were using for "their" property ?
    If you believe what a politician tells you then you have no sense and less hope.
    The only sustainable model those boys were interested in were the ones sitting on their knees in the Shelbourne or such place late at night.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #7002
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    dvpower wrote: »
    Not sure what the basis for that is, but anyway...

    Its your duty as a citizen to pay your lawful taxes - like the Household chargePUBLIC SECTOR WAGE/"ENTITLEMENTS" SUBSIDY.

    FYP.:)


  • Options
    #7003
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Where To wrote: »
    I haven't met one single person angered by the household charge.
    Slightly annoyed but paying anyway maybe, but not angered.

    And I'm a taxi driver in a disadvantaged area :eek:

    Sorry but that is a bit like Bertie's evidence to the Tribunal --- hard to believe.


  • Options
    #7004
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Really. Would we have been told the same story if this was being introduced during the "brown envelope planning spree " that many of the same politicians of all hues were using for "their" property ?
    If you believe what a politician tells you then you have no sense and less hope.
    The only sustainable model those boys were interested in were the ones sitting on their knees in the Shelbourne or such place late at night.

    I'm not in the business of believing any politician - try finding an economist (of any shade) who believes that a property tax isn't an appropriate part of fixing our mess. Try finding a nation that doesn't believe that property tax is a just and proper component of their taxation system.


  • Options
    #7005
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    alastair wrote: »
    I'm not in the business of believing any politician - try finding an economist (of any shade) who believes that a property tax isn't an appropriate part of fixing our mess. Try finding a nation that doesn't believe that property tax is a just and proper component of their taxation system.
    Then the similarities disappear.
    The definition of the property tax differs after that.
    In other countries they get services. We still have to pay for them even if we pay the Property Tax. Bins, water etc.


  • Options
    #7006
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    50,000 people required to pay 100 Euro every day between now and the end of the month to reach just 50% compliance.
    Go on the pro-taxers.


  • Options
    #7007
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Then the similarities disappear.
    The definition of the property tax differs after that.
    In other countries they get services. We still have to pay for them even if we pay the Property Tax. Bins, water etc.

    I'm curious which model of property tax you're happy to pay? - just to check you're not a bull****ter - some of those countries provide services that make our sad arrangement look like Switzerland btw. Services will never improve without funding.


  • Options
    #7008
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    mikom wrote: »
    50,000 people required to pay 100 Euro every day between now and the end of the month to reach just 50% compliance.
    Go on the pro-taxers.

    As long as they all pay up at some point. Which they will.


  • Options
    #7009
    tin79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭tin79


    alastair wrote: »
    As long as they all pay up at some point. Which they will.

    You really have missed the point entirely haven`t you.


  • Options
    #7010
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    tin79 wrote: »
    You really have missed the point entirely haven`t you.

    Not at all. The point is ensuring the tax goes into effect. If people choose to pay late fees - that's their business.


  • Options
    #7011
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    alastair wrote: »
    As long as they all pay up at some point. Which they will.

    *sound of lapping of waves as boat is pushed out*

    The National Rally on Saturday March 24th at 1pm in the National Stadium promises to be a huge event with national and international media coverage, bringing together the campaign nationally, arming ourselves with the arguments for the last push in the battle for mass non-registration, and planning our next steps to defend mass non-payment.
    If you are coming, please try your best to get there as early as possible before the 1pm kick off.
    Buses are being organised from around the country. For more details for your county see below: http://nohouseholdtax.org/travel-details-for-national-rally/


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #7012
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    mikom wrote: »
    *sound of lapping of waves as boat is pushed out*

    Whatever. I'm more than happy to play the long game. Let's see how we stand this time next year.

    Are the 2,000 involved in the HUGE event going to sort out your gameplan for you then?


  • Options
    #7013
    DoesNotCompute
    Registered Users Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭DoesNotCompute


    crusher000 wrote: »
    What about all the chemicals our local water suppliers put in the water ? Fluroide etc. Some people should really think first before they sprout nonsense to others.

    Good point. You DON'T REGISTER, DON'T PAY lot seem to be spouting an awful load of shoite, yerselves. ;)


  • Options
    #7014
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    alastair wrote: »
    Let's see how we stand this time next year.

    Shoulder to shoulder hopefully.

    alastair wrote: »

    Are the 2,000 involved in the HUGE event going to sort out your gameplan for you then?

    Doooohhh
    *drools and slaps ears with cupped hands*


  • Options
    #7015
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    mikom wrote: »
    Shoulder to shoulder hopefully.

    Once you've paid up and shouldered your responsibilities - sure.


  • Options
    #7016
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    alastair wrote: »
    I'm curious which model of property tax you're happy to pay? - just to check you're not a bull****ter - some of those countries provide services that make our sad arrangement look like Switzerland btw. Services will never improve without funding.

    Maybe a bit of openness from Big Phil. Like telling us what kind of services we will receive for this extra payment.
    But no, introduce the charge and tell them nothing.


  • Options
    #7017
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Maybe a bit of openness from Big Phil. Like telling us what kind of services we will receive for this extra payment.
    But no, introduce the charge and tell them nothing.

    You want treats? The current (poor) level of services still need to be paid for.

    No clue yet as to which model of property taxation you favour?


  • Options
    #7018
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    alastair wrote: »
    You want treats? The current (poor) level of services still need to be paid for.

    No clue yet as to which model of property taxation you favour?

    No clue ?
    I don't favour paying any kind of tax on MY property at all. Simple.


  • Options
    #7019
    phil1nj
    Registered Users Posts: 716 ✭✭✭phil1nj


    alastair wrote: »
    Revenue can be generated from your home through renting out.

    The rest of the world don't seem to have a problem tackling how to value a property for taxation purposes. I doubt we're that special.

    There is separate taxation rules in place for people that rent out rooms. Not every person who owns a primary residence will rent out rooms either so I can't agree with that reasoning.

    The rest of the world didn't have a housing bubble fed by cheap money and encouraged by the government of the day. Nor did the rest of the world try and introduce a property tax in the middle of the worst recession seen in a generation (which was first preceded by a very poorly thought out flat rate household charge) whilst a significant proportion of still-mortgage-paying home owners are in negative equity. And all this after 5 austerity (ha!) budgets that have reduced people's take home pay back to levels seen 5 years ago. Also, most other countries actually get something in return for their property taxes. Unlike here, where you will get to live in your own home and be a tenant of the government until the day you die or go in to a care home (by which time you will have either sold the house or been hit with some other BS tax).

    I'm still in 2 minds about the household charge/property tax. I understand the need for such a charge but I don't feel that the Irish people are getting a fair bang for their buck. There is a massive hole in the finances but is enough being doing on the expenditure side to close it (as oppossed to constatntly hitting the populace with taxes and levies)? Do we trust the current policy makers with this money or is it just going in to a black hole from which many nests will be feathered first before things actually change?

    Ultimately it's up to individuals to make up their own minds.


  • Options
    #7020
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    tayto lover wrote: »
    No clue ?
    I don't favour paying any kind of tax on MY property at all. Simple.

    So - when you say that 'The definition of the property tax differs after that' - it's really a distraction from your core unwillingness to pay your way. Fair enough.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #7021
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    phil1nj wrote: »
    There is separate taxation rules in place for people that rent out rooms. Not every person who owns a primary residence will rent out rooms either so I can't agree with that reasoning.

    Eh? If you can rent out a room for profit - it's a source of income (taxed or not), and it doesn't really matter who opts in or out of this option - it's still a potential source of revenue.

    A fair whack of the world has had a housing bubble (USA, Australia, Spain, France, UK, Denmark, etc, etc) - we're not alone in that regard. Despite that, the vast majority of Irish homeowners are in positive equity.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement