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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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    #5192
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    And what of the renters who are availing of the services this tax is paying for?

    And why so many exemptions? Everyone should pay.

    If you don't actually own a property, you can't really be expected to pay a tax on that equity can you? As to renters availing of public services - how is that any different to complaining that motor taxes go to benefit those who don't drive etc? It's a big pot and everyone gets something out of it.


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    #5193
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    alastair wrote: »
    If you don't actually own a property, you can't really be expected to pay a tax on that equity can you. As to renters availing of public services - how is that any different to complaining that motor taxes go to benefit those who don't drive etc? It's a big pot and everyone gets something out of it.

    Sorry but haven't you heard this €100 is not a property tax it is a household charge. The property tax won't come in until next year.

    Your argument using motor tax is ridiculous. People renting houses use water and have access to the services this Property Tax is going to pay.

    There should be a residential tax to go with a property owning tax if this is to be seen as fair.


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    #5194
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    alastair wrote: »
    If you don't actually own a property, you can't really be expected to pay a tax on that equity can you?

    In the UK everyone, including renters pay.
    They get a hell of a lot more for their money than we do here.


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    #5195
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »

    The tiered charge that will replace the flat €100 will be based on a property's actual market value,

    Yea but they can charge any amount they like and tier it upwards. Just because its tiered does not mean owners wont be hammered.

    so negative equity issues are something of a red herring. No-one forced people to buy at inflated prices.
    But you mentioned the equity as a justification to tax a property. A property in negative equity is in negative equity.

    You said a couple of years to end of your mortgage. So its easy for you to judge what others did with regards to buying an expensive house, and suggest they deserve to be taxed on the negative equity property, even though you justify this tax through an equity arguement.


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    #5196
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Does that sound democratic and fair?
    The majority of the govts voters, the people who put them there, show through lack of interest and refusing to register for a bum charge, yet you think they should be basically forced into towing the line?

    This is Ireland buddy, not north Korea.



    lol. It is democratic and fair. Of course they should be forced into towing the line. If everyone was simply asked to pay their own taxes and there was zero punishment for people who didn't we'd have very little tax intake.


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    #5197
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    Sorry but haven't you heard this €100 is not a property tax it is a household charge.

    And the household charge is a tax? No?

    And based on what? The birds in the trees?:D


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    #5198
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    how is that any different to complaining that motor taxes go to benefit those who don't drive etc? It's a big pot and everyone gets something out of it.

    Yes, but the pot is getting bigger, and some are being asked to refill extra into it, due to buying a house to live in.


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    #5199
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    And the household charge is a tax? No?

    And based on what? The birds in the trees?:D

    Its a tax but not The property tax we are promised for 2013-2014 when it will be closer to 1000 Euros for some.


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    #5200
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    If you don't actually own a property, you can't really be expected to pay a tax on that equity can you?

    But this equity thing is your own idea, as an answer when asked about taxing a persons home.

    The equity has absolutey nothing to do with it. Its being taxed because some see it as a taxable item, due to the status of the owner.

    But i said this lots of times, its simply a poll tax on the easiest to identify, ie home owners.


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    #5201
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    Its a tax but not The property tax we are promised for 2013-2014 when it will be closer to 1000 Euros for some.

    Its a property tax, the rest is just pedantics of posters. It will change. But its a property tax.

    When motor tax increases, they are still motor taxes. If they change its neame to road tax, it will still be motor tax, car tax. Pedantic tax.


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    #5202
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,497 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Tomorrow the CAHWT will be counting me in the 1. something million as supporting their campaing because I haven't paid. But I haven't paid yet because the money is not due yet. And there will be many more like me paying in the next two weeks.

    For once in your life stand up and be counted. If you think its wrong then don't pay. I am not paying as neither will many thousands more.


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    #5203
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,497 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Over 50% and the tax is in to stay. And the rest will provide a nice bit of extra income for the government when they pay up later.

    Will you look at the way they are spending the existing money. Just look at your own town. Ploughing money into useless projects like narrowing the streets and making the footpaths bigger like heli pads. Just look at Stapleton Place and Chapel Street and see the waste of money while at the same time slowing up the flow of traffic and congesting the town.
    Do you think your 100e will be spent wisely ?


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    #5204
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,497 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    alastair wrote: »
    The only problem being that ignoring the charge won't actually make it go away. Other than that...

    The Govt obviously want the money now though. So not getting it now will make them think. This unjust tax can be beaten.


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    #5205
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Freddie59 wrote: »

    As I said already - only in fcuking Ireland.

    And has already been said - only in every other state that has property taxes (pretty much everywhere).


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    #5206
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Yea but they can charge any amount they like and tier it upwards. Just because its tiered does not mean owners wont be hammered.



    But you mentioned the equity as a justification to tax a property. A property in negative equity is in negative equity.

    You said a couple of years to end of your mortgage. So its easy for you to judge what others did with regards to buying an expensive house, and suggest they deserve to be taxed on the negative equity property, even though you justify this tax through an equity arguement.

    The equity that the tax will be on will be modelled on the actual equity - not a historic one. No-one is going to be asked to pay on the overblown valuations they agreed to during the bubble. Even with negative equity on a mortgage, there's actual equity in the property.

    Obviously the tiered rates will be higher - no-one has suggested otherwise.


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    #5207
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Yes, but the pot is getting bigger, and some are being asked to refill extra into it, due to buying a house to live in.

    and? You have equity in that house - it's a tax on that equity.


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    #5208
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    But this equity thing is your own idea, as an answer when asked about taxing a persons home.

    The equity has absolutey nothing to do with it. Its being taxed because some see it as a taxable item, due to the status of the owner.

    But i said this lots of times, its simply a poll tax on the easiest to identify, ie home owners.

    It's not a poll tax. Householders who are not homeowners aren't liable. Therefore the tax is on the equity, not the householder.


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    #5209
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    tayto lover wrote: »
    The Govt obviously want the money now though. So not getting it now will make them think. This unjust tax can be beaten.

    No-one has actually articulated a reason why property taxes are unjust. And the state has both the need and mechanisms to enforce the tax - hoping they change their mind is pretty wishful stuff.


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    #5210
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,497 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    alastair wrote: »
    No-one has actually articulated a reason why property taxes are unjust. And the state has both the need and mechanisms to enforce the tax - hoping they change their mind is pretty wishful stuff.

    This lad agrees with us (or did before he got the hots for Angela)
    "It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a person's home" - Enda Kenny, 1994


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    #5211
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    alastair wrote: »
    And has already been said - only in every other state that has property taxes (pretty much everywhere).

    And - as has pointed to to you ad nauseum - this tax has been introduced because of the bailing out of failed business entities who owe each other a private debt. This has fcuk all to do with equity or the rest of Europe.


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    #5212
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    alastair wrote: »
    No-one has actually articulated a reason why property taxes are unjust.

    They are unjust because the revenue they hope to raise with it is to replace money which is being paid to people to whom we are not bound to pay. Jesus, how many times does this have to be pointed out to you?


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    #5213
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    alastair wrote: »
    and? You have equity in that house - it's a tax on that equity.

    Ah yes that home he owns. Which cost the State nothing to provide. For which he's being penalised. While the ones provided with free homes by the state are exempt.:rolleyes: Only in fcuking Ireland.


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    #5214
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    It's not a poll tax. Householders who are not homeowners aren't liable. Therefore the tax is on the equity, not the householder.

    Your meaning of equity is obviously a different meaning to most.


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    #5215
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    alastair wrote: »
    Feel free to vote for the parties that oppose the charge then. No biggie.

    I can assure you, I didn't vote for this shower of useless morons we have at the minute.

    The party that gets my vote certainly wouldn't have been bullied by the nazis.

    They'll be in govt next though, they'll get their chance.


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    #5216
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    They are unjust because the revenue they hope to raise with it is to replace money which is being paid to people to whom we are not bound to pay. Jesus, how many times does this have to be pointed out to you?
    That makes no sense at all. Is your objection to property taxes in general or specifically this property tax.

    Would you accept a property tax if the funds were ringfenced for local authority services and there was a corresponding reduction in other taxes?


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    #5217
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,507 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Ghandee wrote: »
    I can assure you, I didn't vote for this shower of useless morons we have at the minute.

    The party that gets my vote certainly wouldn't have been bullied by the nazis.

    They'll be in govt next though, they'll get their chance.

    Is that the party that collaborated with the Nazis (the real ones)?


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    #5218
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Ghandee wrote: »
    I can assure you, I didn't vote for this shower of useless morons we have at the minute.

    The party that gets my vote certainly wouldn't have been bullied by the nazis.

    They'll be in govt next though, they'll get their chance.
    SF I presume?
    Who do you think they'll be sharing power with?


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    #5219
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Is that the party that collaborated with the Nazis (the real ones)?


    Who Fine Gael?

    Certainly not!

    I've never voted for the blue shirts in my life?

    http://www.lookleftonline.org/2010/08/fine-gaels-fascist-roots/


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    #5220
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    dvpower wrote: »
    SF I presume?
    Who do you think they'll be sharing power with?[/    QUOTE]


    Who do you think they'll be sharing power with?

    I'll give you a hint though, it won't be Edna.


    After the fiscal treaty gets the thumbs down from the Irish people, it'll be Edna's curtain fall.


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    #5221
    n900guy
    Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭n900guy


    gurramok wrote: »
    So, the Dail is an authoritarian unelected institution?? Crazy stuff.



    No, I showed you the non-internet ways of paying. Do they live in Siberia or something?!


    OK, well let's see you vote if you are e.g., working in the UK for a few months. Nope - you can't vote. In ireland? Didn't want to vote for Mary Harney? Well tough, they share out the votes with transfers and unpopular (in the classic Greek sense) get your votes.

    Ireland will never function until our UK-style centralised government is dissolved, and we can have a consociational/direct demcoracy whch works a lot better for countries with so many internal difference. The UK system that we have (parliamentarian) exists to simply centralise income from whatever group it is administering.


This discussion has been closed.
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