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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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    #4472
    golfwallah
    Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭golfwallah


    smash wrote: »
    This has absolutely nothing to do with paying a household charge.

    Back to the original point that householders aren't the type to engage in mass campaigns about issues like this.

    But, it's a free country, so feel free to prove me wrong by organising your mass campaign, if that's what you want!


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    #4473
    RiseToTheTop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭RiseToTheTop


    The funny thing is before this bill was even put in it was stipulated ex TD's wouldn't have to pay a cent of it.

    99% certain that is the case.


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    #4474
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Am Chile wrote: »
    No rallies? no helpline?
    Read my post again. I'm aware there have been rallies and a helpline. The amount of people who've attended the rallies and used the helpline is minimal, especially considering the assertions that "most" people won't pay.
    Ghandee wrote: »
    The time to really stand up is only just approaching, (probably too quickly for the pro brigade).
    The time to stand up is when something can be done about it. Striking while the iron is hot and all that. It's too late.
    Desperation and unpredictability is not a good trait for any govt to have, and when the first wave of whatever repercussions for non payers start to get publicised, expect to see a wave of revolt from the Irish people never seen before in the history of this state.
    I think you're overestimating the anti-payment sentiment. IMO the majority of non-payment can be chalked down to plain old leaving it till the last minute and the "wait and see" brigade. Most people don't pay things until the last minute. I would be very surprised in fact if we'd seen huge payment rates at this stage.

    I would however be surprised if 50% of households haven't paid up by the end of May, and 75% by the end of the year.


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    #4475
    golfwallah
    Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭golfwallah


    RiseToTheTop wrote: »
    The funny thing is before this bill was even put in it was stipulated ex TD's wouldn't have to pay a cent of it.

    99% certain that is the case.

    This is pure rubbish!

    Exemptions include:
    "Residential property vested in a Minister of the Government or the Health Service Executive".

    There's no mention of ex TDs - see link attached, which contains all details, including exemptions:
    https://www.householdcharge.ie/Faq.aspx#fk46


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    #4476
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    golfwallah wrote: »
    Back to the original point that householders aren't the type to engage in mass campaigns about issues like this.

    But, it's a free country, so feel free to prove me wrong by organising your mass campaign, if that's what you want!
    House owners are the ones who are currently organising protests and campaigns!


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    #4477
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    RiseToTheTop wrote: »
    The funny thing is before this bill was even put in it was stipulated ex TD's wouldn't have to pay a cent of it.

    99% certain that is the case.
    Link for this outrageous claim?


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    #4478
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    seamus wrote: »
    Read my post again. I'm aware there have been rallies and a helpline. The amount of people who've attended the rallies and used the helpline is minimal, especially considering the assertions that "most" people won't pay.
    The time to stand up is when something can be done about it. Striking while the iron is hot and all that. It's too late.
    I think you're overestimating the anti-payment sentiment. IMO the majority of non-payment can be chalked down to plain old leaving it till the last minute and the "wait and see" brigade. Most people don't pay things until the last minute. I would be very surprised in fact if we'd seen huge payment rates at this stage.

    I would however be surprised if 50% of households haven't paid up by the end of May, and 75% by the end of the year.

    Some said that at the start of february with low numbers registered then, wait until the end of february there shall be higher numbers registered the end of the month, while there might of been more numbers registered, it was still nowhere near what they actually needed,with 1.6 million currently unregistered those feeling undecided will have more confidence not to register.


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    #4479
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Am Chile wrote: »
    Some said that at the start of february with low numbers registered then, wait until the end of february there shall be higher numbers registered the end of the month, while there might of been more numbers registered, it was still nowhere near what they actually needed,with 1.6 million currently unregistered those feeling undecided will have more confidence not to register.

    It's instructive to look at how late most people were in signing up for SSIA schemes - free money. No doubt many people will be late with the Household Charge payments, and there will be the usual 11th hour mad dash between procrastinators and those who begrudge paying the thing before the very final days/hours. It's the default Irish way with these things - more than any groundswell of opposition.


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    #4480
    golfwallah
    Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭golfwallah


    smash wrote: »
    House owners are the ones who are currently organising protests and campaigns!

    Oh, so we've moved from "mass campaigns" to mere "protests and campaigns" - that's OK - at long last we agree on something.;)

    There was nothing "mass" about the "anti-household tax protest march" I witnessed outside the Dail on 29th February last.

    They numbered in the hundreds ...... but maybe that's "mass" by your standards.

    Come back when you have 10s of thousands ...... although there won't be enough room for pints, tea and sandwiches in Buswell's Hotel after the "mass" march, if ever you do.:)


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    #4481
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    alastair wrote: »
    It's instructive to look at how late most people were in signing up for SSIA schemes - free money. No doubt many people will be late with the Household Charge payments, and there will be the usual 11th hour mad dash between procrastinators and those who begrudge paying the thing before the very final days/hours. It's the default Irish way with these things - more than any groundswell of opposition.

    Currently more then 1.5 million unregistered and unpaid, sixteen days left, for the other 1.5 million to register works out at around 100.000 per day to register and pay.

    It paints an unbelievable picture of aroiund 100.000 people a day logging on, filling out the online form, then processing a payment of 100 Euro from their pocket.

    Broken down in that way........ it seems highly improbable.

    This is not U2 tickets we are talking about here.


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    #4482
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    @golfwallah: I would consider mass non payment as a mass protests would you not?


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    #4483
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Am Chile wrote: »
    Currently more then 1.5 million unregistered and unpaid, sixteen days left, for the other 1.5 million to register works out at around 100.000 per day to register and pay.

    It paints an unbelievable picture of aroiund 100.000 people a day logging on, filling out the online form, then processing a payment of 100 Euro from their pocket.

    Broken down in that way........ it seems highly improbable.

    This is not U2 tickets we are talking about here.

    What seems improbable? That the majority of the 85% will end up paying their Household Charge, with or without a fine attached? Not at all.


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    #4484
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    smash wrote: »
    @golfwallah: I would consider mass non payment as a mass protests would you not?
    The due date isn't until the end of the month and the recent opinion poll shows a majority are intending to pay.


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    #4485
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,497 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    golfwallah wrote: »
    Oh, so we've moved from "mass campaigns" to mere "protests and campaigns" - that's OK - at long last we agree on something.;)

    There was nothing "mass" about the "anti-household tax protest march" I witnessed outside the Dail on 29th February last.

    They numbered in the hundreds ...... but maybe that's "mass" by your standards.

    Come back when you have 10s of thousands ...... although there won't be enough room for pints, tea and sandwiches in Buswell's Hotel after the "mass" march, if ever you do.:)

    Were you there spying for your master ?
    I would not attend an anti household tax march but i am still not paying. I know many others in the same boat too.


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    #4486
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    dvpower wrote: »
    The due date isn't until the end of the month and the recent opinion poll shows a majority are intending to pay.

    Are you ever going to enter a political thread and not side with the current government and participate in scaremongering and throwing out opinion poll statements?

    And my question wasn't an open one, it was directed at a specific user. Not you.


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    #4487
    Buford Tannen
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭Buford Tannen


    Mr CJ wrote: »
    Everyone has to register exempt or not so this is 1.8million

    No just people in general, my friend was on the luas and someone asked him out of the blue are you paying the household charge? he said no, her reply was fair play to ya!! Even people you would not expect a reaction from when I mentioned it to the cashier at the bank she laughed at how very few has paid it hardly no one she said and she aint paying either, all my neighbours are disgusted with it and are not paying either so to me compliance seems to be a great big 0 from where I am

    I only know two people who say that they will pay,one is an ex PS employee who is worried about his pension being cut and the other is a school teacher due a large increment this year.

    Is there a similar pattern here.Do the majority of those that have paid or say that they will pay work for the state?


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    #4488
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Buford Tannen wrote: »
    I only know two people who say that they will pay,one is an ex PS employee who is worried about his pension being cut and the other is a school teacher due a large increment this year.

    Is there a similar pattern here.Do the majority of those that have paid or say that they will pay work for the state?

    I've paid the charge and it's had nothing to do with fear of pensions being tinkered with, or any other fears tbh. Property tax is a sensible component of a sustainable future tax base, and (if the govt get the recipe right) a fair and equitable one. If revenues don't come from here, then where makes up the difference?


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    #4489
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    Buford Tannen wrote: »
    I only know two people who say that they will pay,one is an ex PS employee who is worried about his pension being cut and the other is a school teacher due a large increment this year.

    Is there a similar pattern here.Do the majority of those that have paid or say that they will pay work for the state?

    Good observation in your post, from my experience canvassing only a small people I spoke to Intend to pay,some cases for example one was a maths teacher, the other a retired esb worker, a relative of a former fianna fail counciler.


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    #4490
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    alastair wrote: »
    I've paid the charge and it's had nothing to do with fear of pensions being tinkered with, or any other fears tbh. Property tax is a sensible component of a sustainable future tax base, and (if the govt get the recipe right) a fair and equitable one. If revenues don't come from here, then where makes up the difference?

    From this post you paid the household charge because by the sounds of this post it sound like you have a vested Interest in it, I have yet to meet anyone who agrees with the double taxation of stamp duty combined with property tax.


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    #4491
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Am Chile wrote: »
    From this post you paid the household charge because by the sounds of this post it sound like you have a vested Interest in it, I have yet to meet anyone who agrees with the double taxation of stamp duty combined with property tax.

    Nice conspiracy theory, but no. Maybe you need to get out more?


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    #4492
    golfwallah
    Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭golfwallah


    smash wrote: »
    @golfwallah: I would consider mass non payment as a mass protests would you not?

    "Mass non payment" - the jury is out on that one, as we won't know how many haven't paid for some time yet.

    And a lot of people who are shouting protest now, will eventually pay.

    Look - I detest this tax and the reckless behaviour of people who got us into this mess as much as you do - just, that I think the rule of law and the democratic process are much more important.

    According to Churchill: "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried".

    A sense of perspective is needed here. And bad and all as things seem to be here - I'm just grateful we live in a democracy and can debate issues like household charges publicly - unlike the unfortunates living in places like Syria.


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    #4493
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,497 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    alastair wrote: »
    I've paid the charge and it's had nothing to do with fear of pensions being tinkered with, or any other fears tbh. Property tax is a sensible component of a sustainable future tax base, and (if the govt get the recipe right) a fair and equitable one. If revenues don't come from here, then where makes up the difference?

    I would have the opposite view.
    I think this is an attack on home owners, many of whom are in negative equity. Your home is YOUR home and there should not be a tax on it. It is not right and I don't care whether other countries have it or not.
    They can raise taxes some other way.


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    #4494
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    tayto lover wrote: »
    I would have the opposite view.
    I think this is an attack on home owners, many of whom are in negative equity. Your home is YOUR home and there should not be a tax on it. It is not right and I don't care whether other countries have it or not.
    They can raise taxes some other way.

    Such as?

    Your car is YOUR own too - and yet there's tax liable on it's use on the public highways, fuel, the licence to drive it, the regular roadworthyness test, etc, etc. Your house remains your own, regardless of your obligation to pay property tax (which as you concede, is the norm internationally).

    Negative equity is a red herring btw - you still pay motor tax even when depreciation has reduced the value of your car to a fraction of what you paid. The future (tiered) household charge will be on the basis of market value - not what you paid originally.


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    #4495
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    smash wrote: »
    And my question wasn't an open one, it was directed at a specific user. Not you.
    Use the PM feature for private correspondence or don't post on a public forum.


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    #4496
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    smash wrote: »
    Done that. No you go and read the thread again and actually answer people's questions seeing as how you have all the answers.

    That won't happen, when dv gets stumped the old passive/aggressive insults start flying!


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    #4497
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    dvpower wrote: »
    smash wrote: »
    And my question wasn't an open one, it was directed at a specific user. Not you.
    Use the PM feature for private correspondence or don't post on a public forum.
    Or you know, just don't reply to posts that were directed at a particular individual who wasn't you.


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    #4498
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Am Chile wrote: »
    Good observation in your post, from my experience canvassing only a small people I spoke to Intend to pay,some cases for example one was a maths teacher, the other a retired esb worker, a relative of a former fianna fail counciler.

    I've noticed that myself, my wife's sister and her husband, both PS employees have paid but her other sister and her husband, private sector, will not.
    I wonder are PS employees living in fear??
    I'm self-employed and won't be paying either.


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    #4499
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    dvpower wrote: »
    Use the PM feature for private correspondence or don't post on a public forum.

    Now, dv, your not a moderator yet!!;)


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    #4500
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    I'm self-employed and won't be paying either.

    Maybe not now, but I'm betting time will tell another story.


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    #4501
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    smash wrote: »
    Or you know, just don't reply to posts that were directed at a particular individual who wasn't you.
    No. I think I'll continue to reply to any post I see fit.
    If you don't want to see my posts, there is an ignore feature.


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