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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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    #4322
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    gurramok wrote: »
    Its 100quid in 2012. What happens in 2013 is irrelevant as we're not discussing a higher sum.
    gurramok wrote: »
    You obviously didn't read. Its paltry for 2012 which is the year we're discussing.
    I see, so you have made a suggestion that a sky high income tax would be needed if this tax is not in. Now if we are only discussing this year, and next years higher tax has no relevance (according to you), well then this year, a sky high income tax as an alternative, would not be needed now, would it??

    The other poster was discussing the future and rightly it will have to go up as after all the deficit has to be narrowed. It works perfectly in nearly every other country in Europe, why not here. If not implemented out of greed by a section of naysayers, income tax will have to be raised to plug the hole.
    Its not greed though, its just not accepting every single thing thats thrown at us without question. If they brought in a 20k property tax next year, to solve everything, would you pay it without question?

    You will pay it, I don't think you are of the type that likes breaking the law.
    So i will pay by 31st of march you think, to keep within the law? I think your post there is more like a condescending "do the right thing" sort of attempt:pac:

    But I didnt actually ask what you think, i asked you what i said previously in the thread.


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    #4323
    golfwallah
    Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭golfwallah


    dvpower wrote: »
    The compliance rate for the NPPR was very high, so moving to proactive enforcement on the remainder probably isn't a priority.

    The question was what would they do if 80% didn't pay the household charge - that's a completely different ball game.

    You can be sure the Government has given this a lot more thought than the average person who puts up a "knee-jerk reaction" post on this forum.

    There is a lot more at stake here than a €100 household charge.

    Government has already stated that this "flat rate" charge is temporary, pending development of a more resilient value based system to levy property tax.

    What we're seeing now is the minor skirmishing before the real battle.

    Look, I no more like paying taxes than anyone else, protesting won't make them go away, but hopefully will concentrate Government minds more on drastically cutting the padding from central and local authority spending.

    For example, set spending cut targets for every Local Authority county manager - those that won't or can't do it should be asked to resign and replaced by people who will do the job.

    The same applies to Government Departments.

    Until Government takes back a real management role over the senior managers spending our money, nothing much will change - would like to see our National leaders having the balls to take back real control over the reins.


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    #4324
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    golfwallah wrote: »
    Look, I no more like paying taxes than anyone else, protesting won't make them go away

    Non compliance will.


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    #4325
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    I see, so you have made a suggestion that a sky high income tax would be needed if this tax is not in. Now if we are only discussing this year, and next years higher tax has no relevance (according to you), well then this year, a sky high income tax as an alternative, would not be needed now, would it??

    The 100quid as you well know is a precursor to a higher charge next year as laid down by the IMF. The poster was refusing to pay this years despite it being only 100quid. Start a thread for next year when it goes up.
    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Its not greed though, its just not accepting every single thing thats thrown at us without question. If they brought in a 20k property tax next year, to solve everything, would you pay it without question?

    Every single thing?! This 'thing' was abolished before by FF, its brought back as a general form of taxation. It should never have been abolished in teh first place.

    Why would they charge 20k? Thats ridiculous as you well know, the figure is set so the vast majority of homeowners can afford it.
    robbie7730 wrote: »
    So i will pay by 31st of march you think, to keep within the law? I think your post there is more like a condescending "do the right thing" sort of attempt:pac:

    But I didnt actually ask what you think, i asked you what i said previously in the thread.

    Yes you will pay, you are law abiding aren't you?


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    #4326
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    gurramok wrote: »
    The 100quid as you well know is a precursor to a higher charge next year as laid down by the IMF. The poster was refusing to pay this years despite it being only 100quid. Start a thread for next year when it goes up.
    Do you get that people are not refusing to pay because it's €100, they're refusing to pay because of the fact that it will rise :rolleyes:


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    #4327
    golfwallah
    Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭golfwallah


    smash wrote: »
    Non compliance will.

    Really?

    So you think Government haven't the will or resources to get this through.

    If they don't sort out the country's economic problems like they promised, then they will have to answer to the electorate and just be replaced by someone who will.

    The alternatives of default on loans or swingeing cuts in Social Welfare, Pensions, Public Service Pay, Water Services, etc. are even more unacceptable.

    Looks like we're between a rock and a hard place - so, what is it to be?

    "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things".


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    #4328
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    gurramok wrote: »
    The 100quid as you well know is a precursor to a higher charge next year as laid down by the IMF. The poster was refusing to pay this years despite it being only 100quid. Start a thread for next year when it goes up.
    No need, its directly related, but does not suit your arguement to link them, but for people struggling, they are strongly linked.
    Every single thing?! This 'thing' was abolished before by FF, its brought back as a general form of taxation. It should never have been abolished in teh first place.
    But it was abolished, and not in 2012. Only talk about 2012 you keep saying.
    Why would they charge 20k? Thats ridiculous as you well know, the figure is set so the vast majority of homeowners can afford it.
    But if they did bring in a massive property tax this year, would you pay no matter what the level? Or is there a level you would question, and not see questioning it as "selfish", (your most used word in this thread)

    Also, the figure is set for the vast majority to afford, we agree there. But this is to try to encourage maximum registrations, to then allow any level they see fit to be implemented. If it had been €500 this year, what level would of registered then? Get them in with bait, then slaughter.
    Yes you will pay, you are law abiding aren't you?
    The other posters are right, your having difficulty reading the posts properly.


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    #4329
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    smash wrote: »
    Do you get that people are not refusing to pay because it's €100, they're refusing to pay because of the fact that it will rise :rolleyes:
    robbie7730 wrote: »
    No need, its directly related, but does not suit your arguement to link them, but for people struggling, they are strongly linked.

    Contradictory are we?

    On this thread there are countless examples of posters listing 100quid as too much and also anecdotally. Make up your mind.
    robbie7730 wrote: »
    But it was abolished, and not in 2012. Only talk about 2012 you keep saying.
    Now you know why its justifiably being brought back. You stated 'every thing' like as its new when its not.
    robbie7730 wrote: »
    But if they did bring in a massive property tax this year, would you pay no matter what the level? Or is there a level you would question, and not see questioning it as "selfish", (your most used word in this thread)

    Also, the figure is set for the vast majority to afford, we agree there. But this is to try to encourage maximum registrations, to then allow any level they see fit to be implemented. If it had been €500 this year, what level would of registered then? Get them in with bait, then slaughter.

    I'd have no problem paying at a level of 500quid if it came to it. Thats just 1.37cents a day.
    robbie7730 wrote: »
    The other posters are right, your having difficulty reading the posts properly.

    No. The other posters(perhaps 2) denied it was the IMF that want this property tax as a term of the bailout. I provided direct proof and yet all I got was shrug of shoulders and posters going off in a huff.


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    #4330
    foxcoverteddy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭foxcoverteddy


    there is a lot of sense in saying the government needs to sort out the economy, true.
    However, it does not help people to understand when ex politicians are still riding around in government provided cars with a driver, not acceptable.
    Why are we not cutting the number of TD's? Local government is over burden with councillor's who all spend money on conferences and education, great if someone like us is funding them for 4 grand a year.
    What are we seeing for our money, precious little.
    If the household charge is to remain and increase does this indicate that private refuse collections will cease and be taken over by the council, who may well lease it out, but no charge being made to the householder.
    Will small villages get street lighting? Will there be more rural bus services?
    Will sewage and the like be part of the services to every house, doing away with septic tanks?
    Will someone have the integrity to send out notification of where and how the household tax is to be paid, do not tell me it is on line, how are those without a computer going to find out, buy the local paper? It is not a legal requirement to buy a local rag, watch TV, no legal requirement to watch RTE or TV3 or the Irish station.
    Suggest Phil Hogan get's off his butt and does something positive for those citizen's who wish to remain law biding.:eek::eek:


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    #4331
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    golfwallah wrote: »
    Really?

    So you think Government haven't the will or resources to get this through.
    To prosecute nearly 1/4 of the population. No, they don't


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    #4332
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    foxcoverteddy wrote: »
    Will someone have the integrity to send out notification of where and how the household tax is to be paid, do not tell me it is on line, how are those without a computer going to find out, buy the local paper? It is not a legal requirement to buy a local rag, watch TV, no legal requirement to watch RTE or TV3 or the Irish station.
    There was a nationwide leaflet drop to all households, although there was some hiccup on some of the printing on this.
    There was also a public awareness campaign involving radio, TV and print media.
    Aside from that there was been a fair bit of media coverage, especially over the last couple of weeks and I imagine this will continue.
    Anyone who doesn't know about the household charge by not must be living under a rock.

    There are various ways to pay - its not restricted to online.


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    #4333
    johnny_adidas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,977 ✭✭✭johnny_adidas


    dont know if this has been mentioned here already but just reading about the late payment fees
    "Furthermore, both the €100 charge and any accumulated late payment fee will be a charge against the property concerned and will continue to be such for twelve years after the charge or late payment penalties concerned became due."
    So does that mean after 12 years it's no longer liable?
    And is there also an additional fines scale or is it just the late payment fee ie 10%, 20% etc based on time


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    #4334
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    gurramok wrote: »
    Contradictory are we?

    On this thread there are countless examples of posters listing 100quid as too much and also anecdotally. Make up your mind.
    For a lot of people it is too much, budgets are stretched and there really is no free cash for them.
    gurramok wrote: »
    I'd have no problem paying at a level of 500quid if it came to it. Thats just 1.37cents a day.
    But you don't pay in on a daily basis, you pay a lump sum and that's hard for a lot of people to come up with.


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    #4335
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    smash wrote: »
    To prosecute nearly 1/4 of the population. No, they don't
    Prosecutions aren't required to collect tax.


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    #4336
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    gurramok wrote: »
    Contradictory are we?

    On this thread there are countless examples of posters listing 100quid as too much and also anecdotally. Make up your mind.

    Different people struggle at different levels. Some will strugle to get 100 together this year. Others will struggle next year when the tax is higher and they lose their jobs. You see no link. Good man.

    Now you know why its justifiably being brought back. You stated 'every thing' like as its new when its not.
    Its new for the people under 50 or 55 years of age. Unless people had houses when they were 10 or 15 year olds.

    I'd have no problem paying at a level of 500quid if it came to it. Thats just 1.37cents a day.
    Sure 20k is just 54 cent a day. Or 2.2 cent an hour.

    Would you pay at a €1500 level then, without a problem? Or would having a problem with that be selfish? At what level would having a problem with it not be selfish?
    No. The other posters(perhaps 2) denied it was the IMF that want this property tax as a term of the bailout. I provided direct proof and yet all I got was shrug of shoulders and posters going off in a huff.

    All i aksed was what was my statement earlier in the thread. I got a politician style answer.


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    #4337
    foxcoverteddy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭foxcoverteddy


    DV power, we have not had any leaflet's. media coverage you say, no legal reason why one should listen or watch irish media, we do not buy paper's, so how does one find out?
    There is a false presumption that we all watch RTE or listen to RTE oir have a computer, and no we do not live under a rock.
    If someone i.e. the government wants money put it in writing and send it by post, it is sheer ignorance the way Phil Hogan has gone about it , I have no objection to the charge, other than the normal one, why are we paying bond holder's.
    I demand to be treated the same way as the bond holder's perhaps the unlucky Eircom shareholders should now be reimbursed, what's the difference?


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    #4338
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    smash wrote: »
    But you don't pay in on a daily basis, you pay a lump sum and that's hard for a lot of people to come up with.


    You can pay in quarterly instalments like me, if you registered before the end of Feb. Presume this will be the same in the coming years.


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    #4339
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Sure 20k is just 54 cent a day. Or 2.2 cent an hour.
    I'd like to open a savings account at your bank please.


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    #4340
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    dvpower wrote: »
    Prosecutions aren't required to collect tax.

    Enlighten me then as to how they will collect it if people don't pay, and refuse to pay a fine?
    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Sure 20k is just 54 cent a day. Or 2.2 cent an hour.

    No it's not :confused:


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    #4341
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    black francis wrote: »
    You can pay in quarterly instalments like me, if you registered before the end of Feb. Presume this will be the same in the coming years.

    Yes, and the leaflet stating this 29th of feb arrived here on march 5th.


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    #4342
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    robbie7730 wrote: »




    Sure 20k is just 54 cent a day. Or 2.2 cent an hour.

    Glad you're not our Minister for Finance with maths like that.


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    #4343
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    dvpower wrote: »
    I'd like to open a savings account at your bank please.

    Seems a good rate alright:eek:


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    #4344
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Yes, and the leaflet stating this 29th of feb arrived here on march 5th.


    Find out stuff yourself and don't be relying on someone dropping you in a leaflet to explain your options.

    Honestly, I've very little sympathy for this kind of argument.


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    #4345
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Different people struggle at different levels. Some will strugle to get 100 together this year. Others will struggle next year when the tax is higher and they lose their jobs. You see no link. Good man.

    Most who claim to be struggling are not, its their lifestyle that they won't compromise on. Especially anecdotally as you hear hit face to face, they'd spend 100quid on a night out.
    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Its new for the people under 50 or 55 years of age. Unless people had houses when they were 10 or 15 year olds.

    Never knew teaching in school was that bad, their parents never told them either?
    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Sure 20k is just 54 cent a day. Or 2.2 cent an hour.

    Would you pay at a €1500 level then, without a problem? Or would having a problem with that be selfish? At what level would having a problem with it not be selfish?

    Same level as the UK would be a good barometer. You may get a shock at what they pay.
    robbie7730 wrote: »
    All i aksed was what was my statement earlier in the thread. I got a politician style answer.

    I ain't a politician, just a taxpayer.


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    #4346
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    black francis wrote: »
    Glad you're not our Minister for Finance with maths like that.

    Yes luckily we had a competent one.


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    #4347
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    gurramok wrote: »
    I ain't a politician, just a taxpayer.

    Yes, but so am i.


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    #4348
    golfwallah
    Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭golfwallah


    foxcoverteddy wrote: »
    DV power, we have not had any leaflet's. media coverage you say, no legal reason why one should listen or watch irish media, we do not buy paper's, so how does one find out?
    There is a false presumption that we all watch RTE or listen to RTE oir have a computer, and no we do not live under a rock.
    If someone i.e. the government wants money put it in writing and send it by post, it is sheer ignorance the way Phil Hogan has gone about it , I have no objection to the charge, other than the normal one, why are we paying bond holder's.
    I demand to be treated the same way as the bond holder's perhaps the unlucky Eircom shareholders should now be reimbursed, what's the difference?

    Ever heard of Google?


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    #4349
    foxcoverteddy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭foxcoverteddy


    we might do a lot better if he was minister of finance, at least he thinks he is right where as the other one really hasn't a clue, like the rest of the chaps in power. Still avoids the question though.
    Easy for some to pay, try being on the bread line with no job and kids to cloth and feed, it is far from funny, despite some people treating it as a joke. Get a life


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    #4350
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    black francis wrote: »
    Find out stuff yourself and don't be relying on someone dropping you in a leaflet to explain your options.

    Honestly, I've very little sympathy for this kind of argument.

    Im not looking for sympathy. Just pointing out yet another of our govenrments money wastings.

    No point paying the expense of leaflets if they are useless.

    Fix the wastage before getting tax payers to pay for their mistakes.


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    #4351
    foxcoverteddy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭foxcoverteddy


    Golfwaller, what has google got to do with it? Please enlighten me, as far as I am concerned either contact me with a bill for the money, I do not expect to do the running round


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