"The Origin of Specious Nonsense"

dlofnep wrote: »

Were Lions stored on the ark?

Their Common Ancestors ... The Big Cat Kind ... certainly were on board the Ark.

J C wrote: »

Their Common Ancestors ... The Big Cat Kind ... certainly were on board the Ark.

Any chance of the full list of kinds I asked you for the other day?

MrP

Sarky wrote: »

Just the list of kinds would be nice. No need for any of that scripture crap.

Some evidence for the spontaneous production of genetic information would also be nice.

Sarky wrote: »

Oh, and that rigorous mathematical definition Dembski said he had. Otherwise he's still a lying scumbag.

You will have to raise your reservations with Dr Dembski himself ... but I must say that I find him to be an honest man ... and a very capable scientist.

MrPudding wrote: »

Any chance of the full list of kinds I asked you for the other day?

MrP

The Bible lists occurrences of the Hebrew word "kind", as follows. :-

Genesis 1:11
And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

Genesis 1:12
And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:21
And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:24
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Genesis 1:25
And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 6:20
Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

Genesis 7:14
They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

Leviticus 11:14
And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;

Leviticus 11:15
Every raven after his kind;

Leviticus 11:16
And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,

Leviticus 11:19
And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.

Leviticus 11:22
Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.

Leviticus 11:29
These also shall be unclean unto you among the creeping things that creep upon the earth; the weasel, and the mouse, and the tortoise after his kind,

Leviticus 19:19
Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.

Deuteronomy 14:13
And the glede, and the kite, and the vulture after his kind,

Deuteronomy 14:14
And every raven after his kind,

Deuteronomy 14:15
And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,

Deuteronomy 14:18
And the stork, and the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.

J C wrote: »

The Bible lists occurrences of the Hebrew word "kind", as follows. :-

Genesis 1:11
And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

Genesis 1:12
And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:21
And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:24
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Genesis 1:25
And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 6:20
Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

Genesis 7:14
They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

Leviticus 11:14
And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;

Leviticus 11:15
Every raven after his kind;

Leviticus 11:16
And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,

Leviticus 11:19
And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.

Leviticus 11:22
Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.

Leviticus 11:29
These also shall be unclean unto you among the creeping things that creep upon the earth; the weasel, and the mouse, and the tortoise after his kind,

Leviticus 19:19
Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.

Deuteronomy 14:13
And the glede, and the kite, and the vulture after his kind,

Deuteronomy 14:14
And every raven after his kind,

Deuteronomy 14:15
And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,

Deuteronomy 14:18
And the stork, and the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.

Awesome. Surely the conventionally qualified creation scientist have done some work on this? Surely there must be some kind of scientifically defined list of kinds?

The list you have given seems a bit... woolly? We keep hearing christians telling us the bible is not a scientific text. Please tell me the entire creationist movement is not using the text from the bible you have just quoted to define kinds? Please...

Surely there must be a peer reviewed breakdown of kinds?

MrP

MrPudding wrote: »

Not meaning to back seat mod, but I think you can safely assume no such invitation exists.

MrP

So disappointed ... got my hopes up there for a while!!!:D;)

... but discretion is the better part of valour ... and I have no wish to completely dash all of your misconceptions about Evolution.:D

MrPudding wrote: »

Surely there must be a peer reviewed breakdown of kinds?

MrP

http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/37/37_2/baraminology.htm
... and here is one peer-reviewed list of a few Mammal Kinds ... or Baramin with their sub-Baramin:-

Proboscid (Elephant) Baramin
Elephantidae Baramin
Elephas
Straight-tusked Elephant Elephas antiquus († Extinct)
Straight-tusked Elephant Elephas a. antiquus
Cyprus Dwarf Elephant Elephas a. cypriotes
Sicilian Dwarf Elephant Elephas a. falconeri
Naumann's Dwarf Elephant Elephas a. naumanni
Asian Elephant Elephas maximus
Sri Lankan Elephant Elephas m. maximus
Sumatran Elephant Elephas m. sumatranus
Indian Elephant Elephas m. indicus
Chinese Elephant Elephas m. rubridens († extinct)
Syrian Elephant Elephas m. asurus († extinct)
Mammuthus
Steppe Mammoth Mammuthus armeniacus († Extinct)
Wooly Mammoth Mammuthus a. primigenius
Imperial Mammoth Mammuthus a. imperator
Pygmy Channel Is. Mammoth Mammuthus a. exilis
Loxodonta
African Elephant Loxodonta africana
Savanna Elephant Loxodonta a. africana
Forest Elephant Loxodonta a. cyclotis
North African Elephant Loxodonta a. pharaoensis († extinct)

List of Perrisodactyl (Odd-toed Ungulates) Baramins
Equidae Baramin
Equus
Wild Horse Equus ferus
Przewalski's Horse Equus ferus przewalskii
Domestic Horse Equus ferus caballus
Kiang Equus kiang
Asiatic Wild Ass (Onager) Equus hemionus
Mongolian Wild Ass Equus h. hemionus
Turkmenian Kulan Equus h. kulan
Persian Onager Equus h. onager
Indian Wild Ass or Khur Equus h. khur
Syrian Wild Ass Equus h. hemippus († extinct)
African Wild Ass Equus africanus
Nubian Wild Ass Equus a. africanus
Somali Wild Ass Equus a. somaliensis
Atlas Wild Ass Equus a. atlanticus
Domestic Donkey Equus a. asinus
Plains Zebra Equus quagga
Cape Quagga Equus q. quagga († extinct)
Burchell's Zebra Equus q. burchellii
Grant's Zebra Equus q. boehmi
Selous' Zebra Equus q. borensis
Chapman's Zebra Equus q. chapmani
Crawshay's Zebra Equus q. crawshayi
Mountain Zebra Equus zebra
Cape Mountain Zebra Equus z. zebra
Hartmann's Mountain Zebra Equus z. hartmannae
Grevy's Zebra Equus grevyi

Tapiridae Baramin
Tapirus
Baird's Tapir Tapirus bairdii
Malayan Tapir Tapirus indicus
Mountain Tapir Tapirus pinchaque
Brazilian Tapir Tapirus terrestris

Rhinocerotidae Baramin
Ceratotherium
White Rhinoceros Ceratotherium simum
Southern White Rhinoceros Ceratotherium s. simum
Northern White Rhinoceros Ceratortherium s. cottoni
Diceros
Black Rhinoceros Diceros bicornis
Desert/Cape Black Rhinoceros Diceros b. bicornis
South-central Black Rhinoceros Diceros b. minor
East African Black Rhinoceros Diceros b. michaeli
West African Black Rhinoceros Diceros b. longipes
Rhinoceros
Indian Rhinoceros Rhinoceros unicornis
Javan Rhinoceros Rhinoceros sondaicus
Dicerorhinus
Sumatran Rhinoceros Dicerorhinus sumatrensis
Coelodonta
Wooly Rhinoceros Coelodonta antiquitatis († Extinct)

List of Artiodactyl (Even-toed Ungulates) Baramins
Hippopotamidae Baramin
Hippopotamus
Hippopotamus Hippopotamus amphibius
Ancient Hippopotamus Hippopotamus a. antuquus († extinct)
Common Hippopotamus Hippopotamus a. amphibius
Malagasy Dwarf Hippopotamus Hippopotamus a. lemerlei († extinct)
Cretan Dwarf Hippopotamus Hippopotamus a. creutzburgi († extinct
Cyprus Dwarf Hippopotamus Hippopotamus a. minor († extinct)
Choeropsis
Pygmy Hippopotamus Choeropsis liberiensis

Suidae Baramin
Babyrousa
Golden Babirusa Babyrousa babyrussa
Sulawesi Babirusa Babyrousa celebensis
Togian Babirusa Babyrousa togeanensis
Hylochoerus
Giant Forest Hog Hylochoerus meinertzhageni
Potamochoerus
Bushpig Potamochoerus larvatus
Red River Hog Potamochoerus porcus
Sus
Palawan Bearded Pig Sus ahoenobarbus
Bearded Pig Sus barbatus
Vietnamese Warty Pig Sus bucculentus
Visayan Warty Pig Sus cebifrons
Celebes Warty Pig Sus celebensis
Flores Warty Pig Sus heureni
Mindoro Warty Pig Sus oliveri
Philippine Warty Pig Sus philippensis
Wild Boar Sus scrofa
Wild Boar Sus s. scrofa
Domestic Pig Sus s domesticus
Javan Warty Pig Sus verrucosus
Phacochoerus
Cape Warthog Phacochoerus aethiopicus
Cape Warthog Phacochoerus a. athiopicus († extinct)
Desert Warthog Phacochoerus a. delamerei
Common Warthog Phacochoerus africanus
Porcula
Pygmy Hog Porcula salvania
Tayassu
White-lipped Peccary Tayassu pecari
Catagonus
Chacoan Peccary Catagonus wagneri
Pecari
Collared Peccary Pecari tajacu
Giant Peccary Pecari maximus

Camelidae Baramin
Camelus
Dromedary Camelus dromedarius
Bactrian Camel Camelus bactrianus
Lama
Llama Lama glama
Guanaco Lama guanicoe
Vicugna
Vicuña Vicugna vicugna
Alpaca Vicugna pacos

Tragulidae Baramin
Hyemoschus
Water Chevrotain Hyemoschus aquaticus
Moschiola
Indian Spotted Chevrotain Moschiola indica
Sri Lankan Spotted Chevrotain Moschiola meminna
Yellow-striped Chevrotain Moschiola kathygre
Tragulus
Java Mouse-deer Tragulus javanicus
Lesser Mouse-deer or Kanchil Tragulus kanchil
Greater Mouse-deer Tragulus napu
Philippine Mouse-deer Tragulus nigricans
Vietnam Mouse-deer Tragulus versicolor
Williamson's Mouse-deer Tragulus williamsoni

Moschidae Baramin
Moschus
Alpine Musk Deer Moschus chrysogaster
Siberian Musk Deer Moschus moschiferus
Dwarf Musk Deer Moschus berezovskii
Black Musk Deer Moschus fuscus
Anhui Musk Deer Moschus anhuiensis
Kashmir Musk Deer Moschus cupreus
White-bellied Musk Deer Moschus leucogaster
Hydropotes (Although this Genus is usually placed under the Cervidae it has little similarities with the True Cervid deer, and so it will tentatively be placed here.)
Chinese Water Deer Hydropotes inermis

Cervidae Baramin
Cervus
European Red Deer Cervus elaphus
Central Asian Red Deer Cervus wallichi
Elk Cervus canadensis
Sika Deer Cervus nippon
Przewalskium
Thorold's deer (White-lipped Deer) Przewalskium albirostris
Rucervus
Barasingha Rucervus duvaucelii
Schomburgk's Deer Rucervus schomburgki († extinct, 1938)
Eld's Deer (Thamin) Rucervus eldii
Rusa
Sambar Rusa unicolor
Sunda Sambar (Rusa Deer) Rusa timorensis
Philippine Sambar Rusa mariannus
Philippine Spotted Deer (Visayan Spotted Deer) Rusa alfredi
Axis
Chital (Axis Deer) Axis axis
Hog Deer Axis porcinus
Calamian Deer Axis calamianensis
Bawean Deer Axis kuhlii
Elaphurus
Père David's Deer Elaphurus davidianus
Dama
Fallow Deer Dama dama
Persian Fallow Deer Dama mesopotamica
Sicilian Fallow Deer Dama carburangelensis († extinct)
Megaloceros
Giant Deer Megaloceros giganteus († extinct)
Sardinian Dwarf Deer Megaloceros cazioti († extinct)
Odocoileus
White-tailed Deer Odocoileus virginianus
Mule deer (Black-tailed Deer) Odocoileus hemionus
Blastocerus
Marsh Deer Blastocerus dichotomus
Ozotoceros
Pampas Deer Ozotoceros bezoarticus
Hippocamelus
North Andean Deer (Taruca) Hippocamelus antisensis
Chilean Huemul (South Andean Deer) Hippocamelus bisulcus
Capreolus
European Roe Deer Capreolus capreolus
Siberian Roe Deer Capreolus pygargus
Rangifer
Caribou/Reindeer Rangifer tarandus
Alces
Moose Alces alces
Cervalces
Stag-moose Cervalces scotti († extinct)
Mazama (Although the species within this Genus has a wide diversity of characteristics that may later place them in a Baramin of their own, they will be accepted as true Cervid Deer tentatively until their Baraminic distance can be determined)
Red Brocket Mazama americana
Small Red Brocket (Bororo) Mazama bororo
Merida Brocket Mazama bricenii
Dwarf Brocket Mazama chunyi
Gray Brocket Mazama gouazoubira
Pygmy Brocket Mazama nana
Amazonian Brown Brocket Mazama nemorivaga
Yucatan Brown Brocket Mazama pandora
Little Red Brocket Mazama rufina
Central American Red Brocket Mazama temama
Pudu (As with the above mentioned Genus, the Pudu might well prove to be a different Baramin, but as this is not necessarily the case it will remain under the True Cervid Deer Baramin)
Northern Pudú Pudu mephistophiles
Southern Pudú Pudu pudu

Muntiacinae (tentative) Baramin
(Although this Genus is often placed under the Cervidae Baramin, thier Baraminic distance might well prove to be a reality after futher research. So until then these animals will be placed in a Baramin of their own)

Muntiacus
Southern Red Muntjac (Indian Muntjac) Muntiacus muntjak
Reeves's Muntjac (Chinese Muntjac) Muntiacus reevesi
Hairy-fronted Muntjac (Black Muntjac) Muntiacus crinifrons
Fea's Muntjac Muntiacus feae
Bornean Yellow Muntjac Muntiacus atherodes
Roosevelt's Muntjac Muntiacus rooseveltorum
Gongshan Muntjac Muntiacus gongshanensis
Giant Muntjac Muntiacus vuquangensis
Truong Son Muntjac Muntiacus truongsonensis
Leaf Muntjac Muntiacus putaoensis
Sumatran Muntjac Muntiacus montanum
Pu Hoat Muntjac Muntiacus puhoatensis
Elaphodus
Tufted Deer Elaphodus cephalophus

Giraffidae Baramin
Giraffa
Giraffe Giraffa camelopardalis
Okapia (Although this Genus will tentatively be placed in the Giraffidae Baramin, further research must still be done to prove its Baraminic relationship)
Okapi Okapia johnstoni

Bovinae Baramin
Bubalus
Asian Water Buffalo Bubalus bubalis
Domestic Asian Water Buffalo Bubalus b. bubalis
Wild Asian Water Buffalo Bubalus b. arnee
Lowland Anoa Bubalus depressicornis
Mountain Anoa Bubalus quarlesi
Tamaraw Bubalus mindorensis
Mindoro Dwarf Tamaraw Bubalus m. mindorensis
Cebu Tamaraw Bubalus m. cebuensis († extinct)
Bos
Auroch Bos primigenius
Wild Auroch Bos p. primigenius († extinct)
Domestic Cattle Bos p. taurus
Banteng Bos javanicus
Gaur Bos gaurus
Wild Gaur Bos g. gaurus
Domestic Gaur (Gayal) Bos g. frontalis
Yak Bos grunniens
Domestic Yak Bos g. grunniens
Wild Yak Bos g. mutus
Kouprey Bos sauveli
Pseudoryx
Saola Pseudoryx nghetinhensis
Syncerus
African Buffalo Syncerus caffer
Giant Buffalo Syncerus (Pelorovis) c. antiquus(† extinct)
Savanna Buffalo Syncerus c. caffer
Forest Buffalo Syncerus c. nanamus
Bison
American Bison Bison bison
Wisent Bison bonasus
Ancient Bison Bison antiquus († extinct)

Cephalophinae Baramin
Cephalophus
Abbott's Duiker Cephalophus spadix
Ader's Duiker Cephalophus adersi
Bay Duiker Cephalophus dorsalis
Black Duiker Cephalophus niger
Black-fronted Duiker Cephalophus nigrifrons
Brooke's Duiker Cephalophus brookei
Harvey's Duiker Cephalophus harveyi
Jentink's Duiker Cephalophus jentinki
Ogilby's Duiker Cephalophus ogilbyi
Peters's Duiker Cephalophus callipygus
Red-flanked Duiker Cephalophus rufilatus
Red Forest Duiker Cephalophus natalensis
Ruwenzori Duiker Cephalophus rubidis
Weyns's Duiker Cephalophus weynsi
White-bellied Duiker Cephalophus leucogaster
Yellow-backed Duiker Cephalophus sylvicultor
Zebra Duiker Cephalophus zebra
Philantomba
Blue Duiker Philantomba monticola
Maxwell's Duiker Philantomba maxwellii
Walter's Duiker Philantomba walteri
Sylvicapra
Common Duiker Sylvicapra grimmia
Hippotraginae Baramin
Hippotragus
Roan Antelope Hippotragus equinus
Sable Antelope Hippotragus niger
Common Sable Antelope Hippotragus n. niger
Giant Sable Antelope Hippotragus n. varani
Blue Antelope Hippotragus leucophaeus († extinct)

Oryxidae (tentative) Baramin
(Although this group of animals are often placed along with the Hippotraginae Baramin there seems to be no hybrids between the two groups. So the Oryx species will be kept as an separate Baramin until evidence is provided for the conterary.)

Oryx
East African Oryx Oryx beisa
Scimitar-horned Oryx Oryx dammah
Gemsbok Oryx gazella
Arabian Oryx Oryx leucoryx
Addax
Addax Addax nasomaculatus

Reduncinae Baramin
Kobus
Upemba lechwe Kobus anselli
Waterbuck Kobus ellipsiprymnus
Kob Kobus kob
Red Lechwe Kobus leche
Nile Lechwe Kobus megaceros
Puku Kobus vardonii
Redunca
Southern Reedbuck Redunca arundinum
Mountain Reedbuck Redunca fulvorufula
Bohor Reedbuck Redunca redunca



Caprinae Baramin
Ammotragus
Barbary Sheep Ammotragus lervia
Arabitragus
Arabian Tahr Arabitragus jayakari
Capra
Wild Goat Capra aegagrus
Wild Goat Capra a. aegagrus
Domestic Goat Capra a. hircus
West Caucasian Tur Capra caucasia
East Caucasian Tur Capra cylindricornis
Markhor Capra falconeri
Alpine Ibex Capra ibex
Nubian Ibex Capra nubiana
Spanish Ibex Capra pyrenaica
Siberian Ibex Capra sibirica
Walie Ibex Capra walie
Hemitragus
Himalayan Tahr Hemitragus jemlahicus
Ovis
Argali Ovis ammon
Domestic Sheep Ovis aries
American Bighorn Sheep Ovis canadensis
Thinhorn Sheep (Dall) Ovis dalli
European Mouflon Ovis musimon
Snow Sheep Ovis nivicola
Urial Ovis orientalis
Nilgiritragus
Nilgiri Tahr Nilgiritragus hylocrius
Pseudois
Himalayan Blue Sheep (Bharal) Pseudois nayaur
Dwarf Blue Sheep Pseudois schaeferi
Capricornis
Japanese Serow Capricornis crispus
Sumatran Serow Capricornis sumatraensis
Taiwan Serow Capricornis swinhoei
Chinese Serow Capricornis milneedwardsii
Red Serow Capricornis rubidus
Himalayan Serow Capricornis thar
Nemorhaedus
Red Goral Nemorhaedus baileyi
Chinese Goral Nemorhaedus griseus
Grey Goral Nemorhaedus goral
Long-tailed Goral Naemorhedus caudatus
Oreamnos
Mountain Goat Oreamnos americanus
Rupicapra
Pyrenean Chamois Rupicapra pyrenaica
Chamois Rupicapra rupicapra

Alcelaphinae Baramin
Beatragus
Hirola Beatragus hunteri
Damaliscus
Tsessebe Damaliscus lunatus
Korrigum Damaliscus l. korrigum
Topi Damaliscus l. jimela
Tsessebe Damaliscus l. lunatus
Coastal Topi Damaliscus l. topi
Bontebok Damaliscus pygargus
Bontebok Damaliscus p. pygargus
Blesbok Damaliscus p. phillipsi
Bangweulu Tsessebe Damaliscus superstes
Alcelaphus
Hartebeest Alcelaphus buselaphus
Bubal Hartebeest Alcelaphus b. buselaphus († extinct)
Red Hartebeest, Alcelaphus b. caama
Coke's Hartebeest Alcelaphus b. cokii
Lelwel Hartebeest Alcelaphus b. lelwel
Lichtenstein's Hartebeest Alcelaphus b. lichtensteinii (Although the Lichtenstein's Hartebeest is usually listed as a separate species, recent evidence points towards its relationship with the Alcelaphus buselaphus as being subspecific. So it will be treated here as an subspecies of the Alcelaphus buselaphus group.)
Western Hartebeest Alcelaphus b. major
Swayne's Hartebeest Alcelaphus b. swaynei
Tora Hartebeest Alcelaphus b. tora

Connochaetinae (tentative) Baramin
(Although the Wildebeests are usually classified as conspecific with and placed under the Alcelaphinae Baramin, it may well be a separate kind and so here it will be placed in the separate Connochaetinae Baramin tentatively until evidence for the contrary can be provided)

Connochaetes
Black Wildebeest Connochaetes gnou
Ancient Black Wildebeest Connochaetes g. antiquus († extinct)
Black Wildebeest Connochaetes g. gnou
Blue Wildebeest Connochaetes taurinus
Blue Wildebeest Connochaetes t. taurinus
Eastern White-bearded Wildebeest Connochaetes t. albojubatus
Cookson's Wildebeest Connochaetes t. cooksoni
Nyassaland Wildebeest Connochaetes t. johnstoni
Western White-bearded Wildebeest Connochaetes t. mearnsi

Tragelaphidae Baramin
Tragelaphus
Bushbuck Tragelaphus scriptus
Nyala Tragelaphus angasii
Sitatunga (Water Kudu) Tragelaphus spekii
Mountain Nyala Tragelaphus buxtoni
Lesser Kudu Tragelaphus imberbis
Greater Kudu Tragelaphus strepsiceros
Bongo Tragelaphus eurycerus
Cape Eland Tragelaphus (Taurotragus) oryx
Lord Derby's Eland Tragelaphus (Taurotragus) derbianus

Antilocaprinae Baramin
Antilocapra
Pronghorn Antilocapra americana
Common Pronghorn Antilocapra a. americana
Mexican Pronghorn Antilocapra a. mexicana
Lower Californian Pronghorn Antilocapra a. peninsularis
Sonoran Pronghorn Antilocapra a. sonoriensis
Oregon Pronghorn Antilocapra a. oregona

List of Carnivore Baramins
Canidae (Dog) Baramin
Canis
Gray Wolf Canis lupus
Domestic Dog Canis l. familiaris
Dingo Canis l. dingo
Coyote Canis latrans
Ethiopian Wolf Canis simensis
Golden Jackal Canis aureus
Side-striped Jackal Canis adustus
Black-backed Jackal Canis mesomelas
Dhole Canis alpinus
Lycaon
African Wild Dog Lycaon pictus
Atelocynus
Short-eared Dog Atelocynus microtis
Cerdocyon
Crab-eating Fox Cerdocyon thous
Dusicyon
Falklands Wolf Dusicyon australis († extinct)
Lycalopex (Pseudalopex)
Culpeo Lycalopex culpaeus
Darwin's Fox Lycalopex fulvipes
Argentine Grey Fox Lycalopex griseus
Pampas Fox Lycalopex gymnocercus
Sechura Fox Lycalopex sechurae
Hoary Fox Lycalopex vetulus
Chrysocyon
Maned Wolf Chrysocyon brachyurus
Speothos
Bush Dog Speothos venaticus
Vulpes
Arctic Fox Vulpes lagopus
Red Fox Vulpes vulpes
Swift Fox Vulpes velox
Kit Fox Vulpes macrotis
Corsac Fox Vulpes corsac
Cape Fox Vulpes chama
Pale Fox Vulpes pallida
Bengal Fox Vulpes bengalensis
Tibetan Sand Fox Vulpes ferrilata
Blanford's Fox Vulpes cana
Rüppell's Fox Vulpes rueppelli
Fennec Fox Vulpes zerda
Urocyon
Gray Fox Urocyon cinereoargenteus
Island Fox Urocyon littoralis
Cozumel Fox Urocyon sp.
Otocyon
Bat-eared Fox Otocyon megalotis
Nyctereutes
Raccoon Dog Nyctereutes procyonoides

Felidae (Cat) Baramin
Felis
Chinese Mountain Cat Felis bieti
Jungle Cat Felis chaus
Sand Cat Felis margarita
Black-footed Cat Felis nigripes
Wild Cat Felis silvestris
African Wild Cat Felis s. silvestris
Domestic Cat Felis s. catus
Otocolobus
Pallas's Cat Otocolobus manul
Prionailurus
Leopard Cat Prionailurus bengalensis
Iriomote Cat Prionailurus iriomotensis
Flat-headed Cat Prionailurus planiceps
Rusty-spotted Cat Prionailurus rubiginosus
Fishing Cat Prionailurus viverrinus
Acinonyx
Cheetah Acinonyx jubatus
Puma
Cougar Puma concolor
Jaguarundi Puma yagouaroundi
Lynx
Canadian Lynx Lynx canadensis
Eurasian Lynx Lynx lynx
Iberian Lynx Lynx pardinus
Bobcat Lynx rufus
Leopardus
Pantanal Cat Leopardus braccatus
Colocolo Leopardus colocolo
Geoffroy's Cat Leopardus geoffroyi
Kodkod Leopardus guigna
Andean Mountain Cat Leopardus jacobitus
Pampas Cat Leopardus pajeros
Ocelot Leopardus pardalis
Oncilla Leopardus tigrinus
Margay Leopardus wiedii
Leptailurus
Serval Leptailurus serval
Caracal
Caracal Caracal caracal
Profelis
African Golden Cat Profelis aurata
Catopuma
Bay Cat Catopuma badia
Asian Golden Cat Catopuma temminckii
Pardofelis
Marbled Cat Pardofelis marmorata
Neofelis
Clouded Leopard Neofelis nebulosa
Bornean Clouded Leopard Neofelis diardi
Panthera
Lion Panthera leo
Jaguar Panthera onca
Leopard Panthera pardus
Tiger Panthera tigris
Uncia
Snow Leopard Uncia uncia

Hyaenidae (Hyaena) Baramin
Crocuta
Spotted Hyaena Crocuta crocuta
Hyaena
Brown Hyaena Hyaena brunnea
Striped Hyaena Hyaena hyaena
Proteles
Aaardwolf Proteles cristata

J C wrote: »

I disagree that the Bible is contradictory on the number of animals on the Ark. It doesn't give a number ... it gives examples of clean and unclean animals.

Where does it say "examples"? Show that the lists I have posted are not exhaustive.

J C wrote: »

It isn't exhaustive ... as there were and are more Kinds than those listed ... like I have said, they are examples.

OK, then let's have an exhaustive list of kinds, more than what I have already posted.

J C wrote: »

I could say the same about Abiogenesis-Evolution ... but I wouldn't ... as that would get us all nowhere!!!

A perfect example of your dishonest posting tactics. It has already been explained to you that abiogenesis is not part of evolutionary theory no more than cosmogony is part of cosmology yet your continued conflation of the two shows you to be either incredibly stupid or a downright liar. Which is it?

J C wrote: »

The ability to build very large seaworthy wooden ships was held by the Ancient Chinese whose treasure ships were reputed to be 127x52 metres ... in comparison with 137x23 metres for Noah's Ark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world's_largest_wooden_ships
... also bear in mind that Noah's Ark didn't need to be manoeuvred like a ship needs to be, in order to avoid rocks and to tie up in port ... all the Ark needed to do was to float about on endless seas ... until the lands started to rise above the waves ... and it ran aground.

More dishonesty I see. First of all regarding the Chinese treasure ships you must have missed this:

Wikipedia wrote:

However the size of treasure ships is still disputed and some scholars that they were probably closer to 200-250 feet in length while others argue that they were actually 309-408 feet in length.

The information on Chinese treasure ships is highly speculative, just like the rest of the information you post.

The one ship that we have good evidence of that even comes close to the dimensions listed in the bible is the French ship Rochambeau, later the USS Dudenberg. Depsite having a better length to width ratio than the authors claim made the ark seaworthy Wikipedia notes:

Wikipedia wrote:

She was not particularly stable or seaworthy even with her substantial metal components.

J C wrote: »

The author was being conservative ... the Ark was actually 45 feet high and thus was about six stories high and would therefore have a total floor area of approximately 200,000 square feet ... and 50,000 animals is being exceedingly generous ... some estimates have concluded that 1,000 Kinds (approximately 2,000 animals) would hav been sufficient.

I knew you were clueless about biology but even simple physics and engineering seems to escape you too. The absolute maximum floor space for a six-deck space with an external volume of 450"x75" is 202,500 sq. ft. However, this not only assumes that the hull is dimensionless but also considers the internal space to be a box. This isn't some kind of claw crane machine, JC. You can't just dump all the animals in higgledy-piggledy. Substantial internal reinforcement would be necessary to protect the hull from succumbing to the stresses associated with ocean travel. This would have severely handicapped the internal space and that is before we get to talk about building suitable internal segregeation for human living quarters, animal living quarters, human and animal food storage and sanitation facilities.

As far as your "estimate" of 1000 kinds goes, let's have the list of 1000 kinds then.

J C wrote: »

Some Dinosaur Kinds may have already been extinct by the time of Noah's Flood ... and some may have become extinct during the Flood ... so the number of Dinosaur Kinds on the Ark may have been quite limited.

Based on what? Where's your evidence for any of this? More lies as usual JC.

J C wrote: »

'Dormancy' is a distinct possibility ... as this was a unique and very stressful time.
London Zoo needs to keep animals indefinitely and they need to maintain gardens and buildings as well as disposing of waste within a city environment.
Noah's Ark was new and designed to be occupied for only about one year.
Waste disposal was no problem ... it would simply have flowed over the sides through slits in the sides into the sea!!!
Animals that were in peak condition and young could survive on minimal rations ... and feed demand would be even less if 'dormancy' was induced naturally or pharmaceutically.

And again more speculative bull****. Where do you come up with this stuff? Alright then, let's have your evidence for such "dormancy".

J C wrote: »

With a capacity to inundate the entire globe to a depth of 1.6 miles ... the point is that there is adequate water to cover the Earth totally, if the Earth surface was somewhat smoother that it is today.

If, and its a big if, all the Antarctic ice (which represents 90% of the total) were to melt, it would only result in an increase of 61m. So even by your estimate you're coming up 1300m short and about 8000m short of the bible's account.

In any case, you haven't presented any evidence to suggest that the Earth was topographically different 4000 years ago.

J C wrote: »

There are intriguing recent reports of finding Noah's Ark on Ararat ... but I have an open mind on what exactly has been found:-
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/noahs-ark-found-10496395

So, that'll be a no then.

Searches for Noah's Ark

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Where does it say "examples"? Show that the lists I have posted are not exhaustive.


OK, then let's have an exhaustive list of kinds, more than what I have already posted.

Have a look here:-
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77426455&postcount=8266

oldrnwisr wrote: »

A perfect example of your dishonest posting tactics. It has already been explained to you that abiogenesis is not part of evolutionary theory no more than cosmogony is part of cosmology yet your continued conflation of the two shows you to be either incredibly stupid or a downright liar. Which is it?

Neither ... stop lying about me and calling me prejudicial names!!!:(
... and if Abiogenesis never happened ... then M2M Evolution is an 'orphan' idea ... that also never happened

oldrnwisr wrote: »

More dishonesty I see. First of all regarding the Chinese treasure ships you must have missed this:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
However the size of treasure ships is still disputed and some scholars that they were probably closer to 200-250 feet in length while others argue that they were actually 309-408 feet in length.

... some scientists (who aren't Creationists) believe that these ships were of comparable length to Noah's Ark .... some don't ... build a bridge - and get over it!!!:eek:

oldrnwisr wrote: »

The information on Chinese treasure ships is highly speculative, just like the rest of the information you post.

Not half as speculative as the stuff on Abiogenesis-Evolution.

oldrnwisr wrote: »

I knew you were clueless about biology but even simple physics and engineering seems to escape you too. The absolute maximum floor space for a six-deck space with an external volume of 450"x75" is 202,500 sq. ft. However, this not only assumes that the hull is dimensionless but also considers the internal space to be a box. This isn't some kind of claw crane machine, JC. You can't just dump all the animals in higgledy-piggledy. Substantial internal reinforcement would be necessary to protect the hull from succumbing to the stresses associated with ocean travel. This would have severely handicapped the internal space and that is before we get to talk about building suitable internal segregeation for human living quarters, animal living quarters, human and animal food storage and sanitation facilities.

... that's why the conservative figure of one hundred thousand square feet was used in the study!!!

oldrnwisr wrote: »

As far as your "estimate" of 1000 kinds goes, let's have the list of 1000 kinds then.

... see above for a few of them!!!

oldrnwisr wrote: »

If, and its a big if, all the Antarctic ice (which represents 90% of the total) were to melt, it would only result in an increase of 61m. So even by your estimate you're coming up 1300m short and about 8000m short of the bible's account.

Ice had little effect (except on a few important land bridges) ... the primary effect was from giant continent-wide upthrusts ... and ocean-wide downthrusts!!!

oldrnwisr wrote: »

So, that'll be a no then.

Searches for Noah's Ark

Sounds more like a YES!!!
Quote:-
In 2010, Noah's Ark Ministries International l (NAMI) released videos of their discovery of the wood structures.[18] Members of Noah's Ark Ministries International reported carbon dating suggests the wood is approximately 4,800 years old. It is unlikely that there was any human settlement at the site at altitude of 4,000 meters.[19] Randall Price, a partner with Noah's Ark Ministries International from early 2008 to the summer of 2008, stated that the discovery was probably the result of a hoax, perpetrated by ten Kurdish workers hired by the Turkish guide used by the Chinese, who planted large wood beams taken from an old structure near the Black Sea at the cave site.[20][21] In a response to Price, Noah’s Ark Ministries International stated that they had terminated co-operation with Price in early October 2008, and that he had never been in the location of the wooden structure they identified, and regretted his absence in their find. On their website they say they asked for the opinion of Mr. Muhsin Bulut, the Director of Cultural Ministries, Agri Province. The web site says that his response was that secretly transporting such an amount of timber to the strictly monitored area and planting a large wood structure at an altitude of 4,000 meters would have been impossible.[22] At the end of April 2010, it was reported that Turkey's culture minister ordered a probe into how NAMI brought its pieces of wood samples from Turkey to China.

Sounds like they have actually discovered Noah's Ark ... so I wonder why the media aren't telling us about it (with one or two notable exceptions)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1269165/Noahs-Ark-remains-discovered-mountain-Turkey.html
... answers on the back of a cigarette packet please!!!:eek:

Sarky wrote: »

I love the way J C gets all defensive when cornered by his own dishonesty. It's like watching a teenager trying to argue with himself.

... this thread is like watching 100 guys ganging up on one student ... and each one of them getting a very bloody nose ... every time they try to hit him!!!:)

Sarky seems to already have two black eyes ... but even this hasn't stopped him!!!:D

dlofnep wrote: »

So a cat evolved into Lions, Tigers, Leopards, Cheetahs, Lynxes, etc... in the space of 500 years?

You do know that you're being silly, right?

It seems to be so ... and that is thought to be the reason for some of the so-called 'junk DNA' that seems to have no current purpose ... it is believed by Creation Scientists to be a remnant of the CFSI that produced the rapid speciation in the immediate aftermath of the Flood.:)