Latvian Referendum

19-02-2012 5:11pm

@Ellis Dee, I've never been to any of the Baltic states, but you've confirmed what had happened there. was what I had always suspected, that the Soviets tried to "Russify" the countries.

Nodin · 19-02-2012 5:14pm

I'm going to do meself a favour and stay the **** out of this one, save to observe that (a)Skyforger have a few good tracks and (b) I have seen a latvian woman and she was sexy. Verrry sexy. Intelligent and sexy too, from what I could gather, which is the most dangerous kind of sexy.

RimaNTSS · 19-02-2012 5:20pm

About voting at Soviet times:
Firstly, that was always only one candidate. Secondly, you should, I mean you must go to vote. Thirdly, does not matter if you go to vote or not go or you’ve been eaten your bulletin, there was always 99.99% “YES”.

stabeek · 19-02-2012 5:26pm

@born2bwild

If I was purposely looking for posters capable of throwing out(up?) cavalier comments about major national situations, surely you would have to number

Tell me you've researched and and that you're not just shooting from the hip? Tell me that your Paldies's and Spaseebah's (BTW kudos on the cyrillic) are not just token lingo citations?

PD. You now Pushkin nor Karenina (what every novels she wrote, I dunno) is not quoted by your everyday Russian Latvian.

Mike 1972 · 19-02-2012 6:00pm

RimaNTSS wrote: »

About voting at Soviet times:
Firstly, that was always only one candidate. Secondly, you should, I mean you must go to vote. Thirdly, does not matter if you go to vote or not go or you’ve been eaten your bulletin, there was always 99.99% “YES”.

So if voting was compulsary why did they find it necessary in other parts of the USSR to offer free drinks as an inducement to vote

RimaNTSS · 19-02-2012 6:12pm

They found necessary to make everybody drunk not only during elections but day by day, especially at 70th and 80th

Piglet1984 · 19-02-2012 6:23pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

So if voting was compulsary why did they find it necessary in other parts of the USSR to offer free drinks as an inducement to vote

Not sure how compulsary it was but it was frowened upon if you didn't vote or participate in the general malarkey that was the Soviet regime. Your family, for example, could be investigated by the Cheka and could face reprocussions.

The more people voted, the more the commies could claim that they were representing the people and that there was nothing wrong with the regime.

Mike 1972 · 19-02-2012 6:35pm

Piglet1984 wrote: »

The more people voted, the more the commies could claim that they were representing the people and that there was nothing wrong with the regime.

How secret was the ballot and was spoiling ones vote in protest a realistic option ?

Ellis Dee · 19-02-2012 6:44pm

RimaNTSS wrote: »

They found necessary to make everybody drunk not only during elections but day by day, especially at 70th and 80th

Yes, but the people got drunk on cheap vodka, whereas the Nomenklatura (the ruling party elite) enjoyed the best of everything. As the old Radio Yerevan joke had it: Cognac is a very fine drink that the people enjoy through their elected representatives.:)

The fact that a bottle of Stolichnaya (Столичная) vodka had a tear-off aluminium cap (i.e. couldn't be re-closed once opened) during the Soviet era said a lot about drinking habits in that country.

There's a saying in Finnish, by the way: "ryssä on aina ryssä vaikka voissa paistetaan". (A Russki is always a Russki, even though fried in butter.):eek:

AngryBollix · 19-02-2012 6:50pm

Piglet1984 wrote: »

I am Latvian and I voted against Russian as the 2nd language in Latvia.

"This is unfair and unjust because those who do not have proficiency in Latvian are not given full Latvian citizenship."

In many countries, in order to apply for citizenship, one must be able to speak the country's lamguage. These non-latvian speaking people, who were brought in by the Soviets to russify the smaller Baltic nations, have been living in Latvia since the 60s (and their descendants) and they still haven't learned the basic Latvian. How is that even possible?! I really must question a certain nation's intelligence...

1/3 of the population is Russian while almost everyone speaks Russian.
Not quite true. The younger generation (bar those living in the capital and the Latgale region) i.e. those born in the 1980s and 1990s do not speak Russian.

Many Russian speakers have had to leave Latvia
Nobody has been forced to leave Latvia. Funny though, they will go to, say, Germany, and learn German but they won't learn Latvian.

doors are shut in their faces in employment, education, services.
Did you know that there are bi-lingual schools in Latvia? These schools are state-funded.

Why were people who no longer live in Latvia allowed to vote?

Piglet1984 · 19-02-2012 6:51pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

How secret was the ballot and was spoiling ones vote in protest a realistic option ?

I assume (and I can only assume as I haven't researched it) you were voting in your locality so everybody know everybody, when voting your name would have been taken down and whistleblowing was extremely common. If you didn't turn up, they knew it. I doubt anyone was concerned about the local drunks not turning up for the election date; it was the intelligentsia they needed to show the support to the regime.

A protest by spoiling the votes wouldn't have changed anything and the results would have been falsified anyway. You also have to remember that Russia and its predecessors have never experienced real democracy. The ordinary people supported the regime because they didn't know any better. And those that did not better were quickly eliminated from the socety (labour camps, prison, Siberia).

@AngryBollix
Because I am citizen of Latvia and it is my statutory right to vote in elections and referendums.

Mike 1972 · 19-02-2012 6:52pm

AngryBollix wrote: »

Why were people who no longer live in Latvia allowed to vote?

A lot of countries allow citizens resident abroad to vote. Dont think much of the idea myself but one for another thread really.

AngryBollix · 19-02-2012 6:55pm

Piglet1984 wrote: »

I assume (and I can only assume as I haven't researched it) you were voting in your locality so everybody know everybody, when voting your name would have been taken down and whistleblowing was extremely common. If you didn't turn up, they knew it. I doubt anyone was concerned about the local drunks not turning up for the election date; it was the intelligentsia they needed to show the support to the regime.

A protest by spoiling the votes wouldn't have changed anything and the results would have been falsified anyway. You also have to remember that Russia and its predecessors have never experienced real democracy. The ordinary people supported the regime because they didn't know any better. And those that did not better were quickly eliminated from the socety (labour camps, prison, Siberia).

@AngryBollix
Because I am citizen of Latvia and it is my statutory right to vote in elections and referendums.

Do you live in Latvia?

Crann na Beatha · 19-02-2012 6:57pm

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Crann na Beatha · 19-02-2012 6:59pm

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Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 19-02-2012 7:00pm

born2bwild wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by the language being exclusionist.

At any rate I'm criticising the Latvians for introducing this law. I would make the same argument if the Latvian was not recognised as an official lanaguge.

Think about the fuss we kicked up when the EU forgot to recognise Irish as an official language! And this was for a language that almost nobody speaks on a day to day basis.

In contrast, Russian is spoken every day in Latvia but it is not recognised alongside Lativian. Why? because the Latvians want a large part their population to have second-class citizenship in order to give the Russians the two fingers.

I sid the law was exclusionsit, not the language. Specifically this one.

This is unfair and unjust because those who do not have proficiency in Latvian are not given full Latvian citizenship. 1/3 of the population is Russian while almost everyone speaks Russian.

Piglet1984 · 19-02-2012 7:02pm

AngryBollix wrote: »

Do you live in Latvia?

No, but I am still considered a resident of Latvia. I know that Irish citizens living abroad cannot vote however it is not the same in Latvia.

@Aquila
No, I don't. Were you expecting me to say yes because I am not pro-Soviet/Russia?

AngryBollix · 19-02-2012 7:07pm

Piglet1984 wrote: »

No, but I am still considered a resident of Latvia. I know that Irish citizens living abroad cannot vote however it is not the same in Latvia.

@Aquila
No, I don't. Were you expecting me to say yes because I am not pro-Soviet/Russia?

Thats quite bizarre. That you are considered a resident even though you are not a resident. Whats the thinking behind that?

Crann na Beatha · 19-02-2012 7:07pm

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Piglet1984 · 19-02-2012 7:08pm

AngryBollix wrote: »

Thats quite bizarre. That you are considered a resident even though you are not a resident. Whats the thinking behind that?

It's to do with tax.

@Aquila
Fair enough. There was no victory for Latvia, be it 16 March or 9 May. the country was simply destroyed. However, as you are asking about the Legion day, I assume you know why it being celebrated by war veterans and why the Latvian population saw the nazi regime as less evil?

RimaNTSS · 19-02-2012 7:09pm

Aquila wrote: »

Do you celebrate "legion day" personally?

Although question was not for me, I would say that this is very politicized issue. Do you know why people during WWII joined Legion?

AngryBollix · 19-02-2012 7:11pm

Piglet1984 wrote: »

It's to do with tax.

What tax reasons?

Piglet1984 · 19-02-2012 7:14pm

AngryBollix wrote: »

What tax reasons?

If I return to Latvia to work, the State Revenue Service can ask me to pay the tax difference for the time I worked in Ireland.

boynesider · 19-02-2012 7:15pm

It's only right that a countries citizens living abroad can vote and I think it's bizarre that this doesn't extend to irish emigrants.

On the topic in question, it sounds like a very divisive decision by the latvian people to me and this can never be a good thing. If the intention was to prove a point to Russia then this was very childish IMO. Latvia is a member of the EU and this is the greatest guarantee of sovereignty a former Soviet country can have in the present situation, while Russia is a long way from being the resurgent superpower some people claim it to be.

Mike 1972 · 19-02-2012 7:15pm

AngryBollix wrote: »

What tax reasons?

Probably Latvian citizens living abroad have to pay Latvian income tax on top of Irish (or wherever) income tax ?

There used to be a similar situation with Polish citizens but I think thats no longer the case (EU directive ???).

Although Im not a massive fan of the idea of emigrants retaining a vote in their country of origin if theyre expected to pay tax its reasonable enough

AngryBollix · 19-02-2012 7:19pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Probably Latvian citizens living abroad have to pay Latvian income tax on top of Irish (or wherever) income tax ?

There used to be a similar situation with Polish citizens but I think thats no longer the case.

Although Im not a massive fan of the idea of emigrants retaining a vote in their country of origin if theyre expected to pay tax its reasonable enough

Ok. So if I'm understanding you correctly then Latvians earn money here but pay some of their income tax to a foreign government (i.e their own)?

Piglet1984 · 19-02-2012 7:21pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Probably Latvian citizens living abroad have to pay Latvian income tax on top of Irish (or wherever) income tax ?

There used to be a similar situation with Polish citizens but I think thats no longer the case (EU directive ???).

Although Im not a massive fan of the idea of emigrants retaining a vote in their country of origin if theyre expected to pay tax its reasonable enough

Only if you return to Latvia to work they might ask you to pay the difference but that is being phased out as result of an agreement between Latvia and Ireland. So no, we are not paying extra tax to "a foreign government" as AngryBollix put it.

Crann na Beatha · 19-02-2012 7:21pm

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Mike 1972 · 19-02-2012 7:23pm

AngryBollix wrote: »

Ok. So if I'm understanding you correctly then Latvians earn money here but pay some of their income tax to a foreign government?

The way it worked with Polish citizens was that they paid the normal rate of Irish income tax on their wages earned in Ireland and Polish income tax on whatever was left over :eek: It was known as "double income taxation".

One did of course have the option of inviting the Polish tax authorities to go and copulate with themselves provided one planned on never setting foot in Poland again.

Anyway barring any clarification from Latvian citizens whether the same still applies in Latvia lets get back on topic.............

Crann na Beatha · 19-02-2012 7:26pm

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Piglet1984 · 19-02-2012 7:35pm

Aquila wrote: »

I am disapointed on the result as i know many people affected by this outcome,similar to the ordeal faced by Russian speakers in Estonia.
Putting history aside surely as a modern democratic nation this could have been a chance to show to the world that Latvia acknowledges the past,that crimes may have been commited to ethnic Latvians but it is a fully matured as ademocratic nation that doesnt dismicrate against certain citizens due to language,ethnicity because of historical grieveances

The Latvian constitution states that Latvian is the only language in Latvia. In order to change the constitution, a referendum must be held. The referendum was held and it shows that 75% of the people do not believe that Russian should be the 2nd language? What is so un-modern and un-democratic about this?

Mike 1972 · 19-02-2012 7:39pm

Piglet1984 wrote: »

The referendum was held and it shows that 75% of the people who were allowed vote do not believe that Russian should be the 2nd language?

FYP

During Soviet times elections in Latvia were heavily rigged

Plus Ca Change........

Zab · 19-02-2012 7:45pm

I'll admit that I know very little about the situation in Latvia.

However, this one seems pretty simple to me and the answer is that two issues are being conflated. All these "non-citizens" who have been there since independence should automatically become citizens. Russian does not become an official language and anybody not covered by the initial clause will have to learn Latvian.

Piglet1984 · 19-02-2012 7:46pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

FYP

During Soviet times elections in Latvia were heavily rigged

Plus Ca Change........

No need to fix my post and no need to imply that the referendum was rigged.

You will find that hardly any country will also citizens of other countries to vote in their referendums. Nothing new or sensationalist about it.

RimaNTSS · 19-02-2012 7:52pm

Zab wrote: »

However, this one seems pretty simple to me and the answer is that two issues are being conflated. All these "non-citizens" who have been there since independence should automatically become citizens. Russian does not become an official language and anybody not covered by the initial clause will have to learn Latvian.

That is possible now- any non-sitizen can go via naturalization process and become a citizen. Many people did so, including Russians, Lithuanians, Poles you name it.

Edit: _http://www.am.gov.lv/en/policy/4641/4642/4651/naturalisation/

Mike 1972 · 19-02-2012 7:54pm

Piglet1984 wrote: »

No need to fix my post and no need to imply that the referendum was rigged.

You will find that hardly any country will also citizens of other countries to vote in their referendums. Nothing new or sensationalist about it.

You can spin it anyway you like but excluding a sizeable proportion of countries native born and permanently resident population from the electoral process on ethnic grounds by rendering them practically stateless and then claiming the results of said electoral process are in any way "democratic" is a pretty bad joke even by AH standards.

Ellis Dee · 19-02-2012 7:55pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Probably Latvian citizens living abroad have to pay Latvian income tax on top of Irish (or wherever) income tax ?

There used to be a similar situation with Polish citizens but I think thats no longer the case (EU directive ???).

Although Im not a massive fan of the idea of emigrants retaining a vote in their country of origin if theyre expected to pay tax its reasonable enough

I believe we're getting into very dangerous territory if the right to vote is in any way linked to ability to pay tax.

Many, many European countries allow their expatriate citizens to vote and encourage it. If you read Irish newspapers regularly, you will see notices published by various embassies to tell citizens when and how they can vote.

I am a Finnish citizen and have on several occasions voted in parliamentary, local-government and presidential elections as well as in one referendum at the embassy just off St. Stephen's Green. The atmosphere is always welcoming and coffee and biscuits are usually served to those who come to "do their duty as a citizen". By contrast, I always have to make sure I'm in Ireland when it's election time here.:cool:

Mike 1972 · 19-02-2012 7:58pm

Ellis Dee wrote: »

I believe we're getting into very dangerous territory if the right to vote is in any way linked to ability to pay tax.

Depends on ones definition of "tax". Everyone resident in Ireland pays some kind of tax........

Piglet1984 · 19-02-2012 8:03pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

You can spin it anyway you like but excluding a sizeable proportion of countries native born and permanently resident population from the electoral process on ethnic grounds by rendering them stateless and then claiming the results of said electoral process are in any way "democratic" is a pretty bad joke even by AH standards.

Anyone born after 1991, whether Latvian or non-Latvian speaking, will receive Latvian citizenship automatically. These people wouldn't be stateless if they applied for the citizenship of Latvia. You could pass the test after a couple of months of living here, it's that basic.

And I'm not too concerned about AH standards.

Mike 1972 · 19-02-2012 8:05pm

Piglet1984 wrote: »

Anyone born after 1991, whether Latvian or non-Latvian speaking, receive Latvian citizenship automatically.

And what of those born in Latvia before 1991 ?

RimaNTSS · 19-02-2012 8:14pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

And what of those born in Latvia before 1991 ?

via so called naturalisation process _http://www.am.gov.lv/en/policy/4641/4642/4651/naturalisation/

Since the start of the naturalisation process on 1 February 1995 and until 30 September 2011, by Decree of the Cabinet of Ministers 136,897 persons were granted Latvian citizenship, including 14,012 minors. Thus the representatives of more than 70 nationalities have acquired the citizenship of Latvia. The major portion of all applicants for citizenship consists of Russian residents and represents 68% of the total. 59.8% among those 612,306 residents of Russian ethnicity in Latvia have obtained citizenship.

Piglet1984 · 19-02-2012 8:16pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

And what of those born in Latvia before 1991 ?

Those who were citizens of Latvia before 1940 and their descendants received the citizenship. The rest had to apply.

Legally, it's quite a unique situation but I suppose that was the legacy the Baltic states were left and had to deal with and this was the route they chose.

Zab · 19-02-2012 8:19pm

RimaNTSS wrote: »

That is possible now- any non-sitizen can go via naturalization process and become a citizen. Many people did so, including Russians, Lithuanians, Poles you name it.

No, I'm not referring to the naturalization process as that requires knowledge of Latvian. I'm suggesting they should be able to become citizens without naturalization. Similar to how it is for children born since 1991 except for everybody in the country in 1991 and still there now.

http://www.pmlp.gov.lv/en/Citizenship/children.html

RimaNTSS · 19-02-2012 8:24pm

Naturalization, easy like that. And now is question: Why so many thousands wish to live i n Latvia but do not want to become a citizens? I know why at least some of them does not want! They do not care that they can not vote and can not work in governmental job. Rest of rights are exactly same as for citizens.
From 1991 more than 20 years passed, so enough time to learn a little bit of Language, of course if there is wish to do so.

Mike 1972 · 19-02-2012 8:31pm

Zab wrote: »

No, I'm not referring to the naturalization process as that requires knowledge of Latvian.

Certain US states used to have a "literacy test" that people had to pass in order to register to vote right up until the mid 1960's.

On the face of it it didnt sound too unreasonable seeing has how in the age before mass electronic media the illiterate were unlikely to be well informed and it could have been considered dangerous to give them a vote.

However by some inexplicable quirk it seemed to be the case that members of some ethnic groups almost never failed these tests while members of other groups almost never passed them often regardless of how well or badly educated they actually were.

One wonders is it a similar case with these language tests ?

RimaNTSS · 19-02-2012 8:35pm

Zab wrote: »

I'm suggesting they should be able to become citizens without naturalization.

Can you imagine that now, after 20 years, Latvian government will be willing to change this law? After so many people went throw naturalization! You are asking why this law was proclaimed 20 years ago? This is too late to discuss as law is in power. Most likely, if we star our history from certain moment again, we would do several things differently.

Piglet1984 · 19-02-2012 8:39pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

One wonders is it a similar case with these language tests ?

Seriously? Like seriously? Are you implying that there are people being failed on purpose? Humour me.

I am from a mixed family myself, my relatives had to take the language test. Old, young, they passed and can now enjoy their life in Latvia without living in the fear that they might deported to a labour camp on a remote island in the Baltic sea (as this is what obviously happens to all non-citizens of Latvia and Estonia).

Mike 1972 · 19-02-2012 8:41pm

Imagine the outcry if the UK government started requiring people registering to vote anywhere in the United Kingdom (including Northern Ireland) a UK passport in order to prove their eligibility to vote ?

I suspect certain Irish posters defending the Latvian situation here might be changing their tune pretty quickly.......

Seriously? Like seriously? Are you implying that there are people being failed on purpose? Humour me.

Why not ?

It would seem that in Latvia residents of non Latvian (particularly Russian) ethnicity dont seem to be held in particularly high regard either by official institutions or the wider population ?

If its as easy as you suggest for anyone resident in Latvia to become full citizens why do so many people simply not bother and prefer to endure everything from mild inconvenience to outright discrimination ?

RimaNTSS · 19-02-2012 8:41pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

One wonders is it a similar case with these language tests ?

I do not have official statistics how many fail test, but I suspect that not many at all. I spoke to those have passed, that was really easy.
Majority did not have their test #1, did not even try, that is the point.

Seanchai · 19-02-2012 8:46pm

Piglet1984 wrote: »

And I'm not too concerned about AH standards.

Hehe.

Latvian Referendum

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