Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

willietherock · 14-02-2012 11:46pm

How many colleges involved in Waterford Colleges Harty side?

HelloYoungBoy · 15-02-2012 12:18am

willietherock wrote: »

How many colleges involved in Waterford Colleges Harty side?

Just 2, Dungarvan CBS and St. Agustines College. Majority of players are from Dungarvan CBS

deisebhoy17 · 15-02-2012 4:22am

Strange calling up so many players from his own club and then not giving any of them an opportunity to play in the crystal tournament. .

A sign of a manager bereft of ideas imo. Dosent really know what players he should be looking at so call up a loada lads from his own club that he knows best. only to realise that they werent really up to that level when the whole county could have told him that before hand. I dunno where were going this year tbh

Mountainlad · 15-02-2012 1:35pm

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

A sign of a manager bereft of ideas imo. Dosent really know what players he should be looking at so call up a loada lads from his own club that he knows best. only to realise that they werent really up to that level when the whole county could have told him that before hand. I dunno where were going this year tbh

So, you're the spokesman for the whole county now?

mickmcl09 · 15-02-2012 2:44pm

Like Premierstone says, in some quarters punters are being a bit OTT and early to be having a go at the Waterford Management. I follow the scene down here as I live just outside the City.
The whole parochial thing brings me back years in Waterfords case where Mt. Sion and B Gunner represented the county almost single handedly, I could understand fellas giving out about it then, but now? A panel of 50 odd players from all parts of the county, there was always going to be guys within that 50 that are never going to make it and accusations of parochialism is a cope out.
Selection of home club players in this case looks nothing short of simple nievity on the Managers part, especially when he hasn't tried out alot of these guys - what was he thinking, you'd have to ask, as many have alluded to.

What's most apparent and worrying from the Waterford games so far this year?
- not using 4/5 subs in games
- using older players that have had their day, when there's some very promising youngsters in the county who could be drafted in now with a view to them making it into the x chip 15' next year or the year after, sooner if you were lucky. Alot of the '15' in the KKs and Kerrys if this world tend to spend a year or 2 on the panel before making it. Most counties are no different.
- fitness aside, what looked like players just going through the motions last Sunday, not busting a gut. Between the lines it indicates that the players think they know as much if not more than the Mgt. (call it a lack of respect if you want) and they have a good idea of the final panel themselves. This is not a good reflection on the Mgt. Clare players might be on a different regime but the Mgt made alot more use of the outing.
- horses for courses, managers for club Vs intercounty teams. In fairness the manager has proven himself at club level and afterall, the general consensus in Waterford was that somebody from inside the county was required this time round. There's still the bigger more important part of the year for the mgr and the team to prove themselves, but punters are very right to be concerned with the managers train of thought. IMO, the manager is on a hiding to nothing unless Waterford 1. Beat Clare in the championship, and alot of water will have gone under the bridge before any of us can start making predictions on that. And 2. A quarter final if not semi final appearance later in the year.

Late last year, I tangled with MountainLad and a few more where Waterford were going in comparison to Clare and I fell in for a bit of criticism, rightly or wrongly, it doesn't matter, but as was rightly pointed out by some of ye, the amount of upcoming talent thats there and as I see it, not being nurtured for want of a better word, lacks foresight on the Mgr's part.

Verdict: I'd be worried that the Manager is not working out, but you have to give him a chance. It might not be how you or I would do it, but he got the job on merit.

Mountainlad · 15-02-2012 3:18pm

mickmcl09 wrote: »

Like Premierstone says, in some quarters punters are being a bit OTT and early to be having a go at the Waterford Management. I follow the scene down here as I live just outside the City.
The whole parochial thing brings me back years in Waterfords case where Mt. Sion and B Gunner represented the county almost single handedly, I could understand fellas giving out about it then, but now? A panel of 50 odd players from all parts of the county, there was always going to be guys within that 50 that are never going to make it and accusations of parochialism is a cope out.
Selection of home club players in this case looks nothing short of simple nievity on the Managers part, especially when he hasn't tried out alot of these guys - what was he thinking, you'd have to ask, as many have alluded to.

What's most apparent and worrying from the Waterford games so far this year?
- not using 4/5 subs in games
- using older players that have had their day, when there's some very promising youngsters in the county who could be drafted in now with a view to them making it into the x chip 15' next year or the year after, sooner if you were lucky. Alot of the '15' in the KKs and Kerrys if this world tend to spend a year or 2 on the panel before making it. Most counties are no different.
- fitness aside, what looked like players just going through the motions last Sunday, not busting a gut. Between the lines it indicates that the players think they know as much if not more than the Mgt. (call it a lack of respect if you want) and they have a good idea of the final panel themselves. This is not a good reflection on the Mgt. Clare players might be on a different regime but the Mgt made alot more use of the outing.
- horses for courses, managers for club Vs intercounty teams. In fairness the manager has proven himself at club level and afterall, the general consensus in Waterford was that somebody from inside the county was required this time round. There's still the bigger more important part of the year for the mgr and the team to prove themselves, but punters are very right to be concerned with the managers train of thought. IMO, the manager is on a hiding to nothing unless Waterford 1. Beat Clare in the championship, and alot of water will have gone under the bridge before any of us can start making predictions on that. And 2. A quarter final if not semi final appearance later in the year.

Late last year, I tangled with MountainLad and a few more where Waterford were going in comparison to Clare and I fell in for a bit of criticism, rightly or wrongly, it doesn't matter, but as was rightly pointed out by some of ye, the amount of upcoming talent thats there and as I see it, not being nurtured for want of a better word, lacks foresight on the Mgr's part.

Verdict: I'd be worried that the Manager is not working out, but you have to give him a chance. It might not be how you or I would do it, but he got the job on merit.

To be fair, that is probably the most sensible thing written post match.

mickmcl09 · 15-02-2012 3:37pm

Mountainlad wrote: »

To be fair, that is probably the most sensible thing written post match.

Thanks Mountainlad.
The question is though, will the Mgt. have the sliotars to drop the likes of Eoin McGrath and maybe 2 to 3 more who through no fault of their own are no longer going to change games any more significantly than the pick of your best 10 minors over the last 3 years who will only improve more significantly and to an overall higher level if brought in now. There was some great performances by some of these young fellas in some of the senior club games last year.
Would Connors be as highly rated as he is now had he not been brought into the set up as early as he was, definitely not. Waterford have a handful more of these type of guys in the county. That would put ye in a much more competitive position, not only next year and onwards, but this year as well.
It's like the manager is afraid to stand up and be counted.

premierstone · 15-02-2012 4:07pm

You raise an interesting issue there mick, the problem is Ryan is caught between a rock and a hard place, as can be seen from the reaction in this thread to Sundays performance people, not all but some, are merely looking for a reason to jump on him, so he kind of needs to get results straight away, when the reality is Waterford should be imo prepared to have a two or three year period of transition where new polayers can be blooded slowly, introduced to senior inter county level, which lets face it bears no resemblence to county minor and we have no idea how those minors will fair.

Some of the comments directed towards Ryan would have one believe that the guy won a raffle to get the job or something, he is there on merit and was the best man for the job, so everyone needs to get behind him and give him the support and encouragement he needs, at the end of the day he's not Davy, be thankfull for small mercies - no pun intended with the use of small

drumhills · 15-02-2012 8:42pm

I hear that the two O'Gormans are gone off the panel already.

deisebhoy17 · 15-02-2012 9:08pm

Mountainlad wrote: »

So, you're the spokesman for the whole county now?

Most people would agree with me anyway, yea. #

I know theres a few up your direction alright who refuse to accept any criticism of anyone from that particular club. This is a public message board just accept that people are going to say it as they see it even if you take personal offence, which you seem to do anytime someone says something about anyone from FMW/Nire, even if you do insist your not from there! :rolleyes:

deisebhoy17 · 15-02-2012 9:15pm

premierstone wrote: »

Some of the comments directed towards Ryan would have one believe that the guy won a raffle to get the job or something, he is there on merit and was the best man for the job,

Hes there because the co. board got him on the cheap. spade a spade.

Mountainlad · 15-02-2012 10:16pm

Giveitfong wrote: »

It’s a pity to see contributors on this and other sites using the Eoin Kelly and O’Gorman brothers cases to purse their own personal vendettas against Michael Ryan. You can be sure that the decision regarding Kelly was taken with the best interests of the team in mind and in consultation with his fellow mentors who are all top-class hurling or fitness men. Kelly was given fitness targets to meet which he failed to do and he then turned down the offer to train with the squad to help him raise his fitness levels. What else could the management do?

As regards the O’Gorman twins, I have felt for several years now that if the Fourmilewater/Nire players were to give priority to hurling they would be a very serious force within the county. There were signs of this happening in 2011 on both fronts, and the decision of the O’Gormans to switch focus will surely mean that Ballygunner and De La Salle won’t have the county championship entirely to themselves this year.

While not outstanding hurlers at the moment, the O’Gormans have other attributes which have surely attracted them to the county management. They are as tough as nails, very competitive and very dedicated. If the county management can bring on their already good hurling skills sufficiently, they would be just the kind of players you need to stand up to the power and bullying which are key components of Kilkenny’s hurling mix. It is an insult to both Michael Ryan and the O’Gormans themselves to suggest that they are only on the panel because they are from the same club as Ryan.

Deise_Davy wrote: »

This is complete horses**t. Do you think Kilkenny or Tipp would pluck two players out of obscurity and bring them on to the panel. There is no way that the O'Gorman's are good enough for inter county hurling. In fact, I doubt they would make either the Ballygunner or De La Salle starting fifteens. You say you think, they can improve enough in order to be able to match Kilkenny players. You are away with the fairies if you think this will happen. As footballers, the O'Gormans are as good as any in the province, but are very limited hurlers and did not stand out I the recent trial games. This is pure opportunism by Ryan, keeping the lads at home happy.

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

Most people would agree with me anyway, yea. #

I know theres a few up your direction alright who refuse to accept any criticism of anyone from that particular club. This is a public message board just accept that people are going to say it as they see it even if you take personal offence, which you seem to do anytime someone says something about anyone from FMW/Nire, even if you do insist your not from there! :rolleyes:

Ah yeah sure the whole county does, sure that's why we nominated you spokesperson!

If you look at the two posts I've quoted there I'd be grateful, because maybe then you could stop and think about what you're saying. The first was Giveitfong's take on the situation which arose after the news broke of Kelly being dropped and the O'Gorman's being brought on. I edited out most fo the Kelly stuff because it's irrelevant in what I'm trying to say. I think you were very much so included in the first line of what was said. For your information, that post got 11 thanks, 10 if you don't count mine.

The post underneath was a response from Deise Davy, where said things similar to what you're saying. That got 1 thank.

Are you saying that most of the people on this forum are fron FMW/The Nire?

Fair enough, your opinion, but then you keep on wrongly suggesting I am. As I've said a million times I'm from a neighbouring parish, but know several people from that area. I go to the games with them sometimes. They tell me things about their players and I listen.

The fact is you keep trying to pin a non-existent bias for Fourmilewater to me in order to disguise your bias against Michael Ryan. I already did criticise the management for Sunday, something you conveniently ignored. However, I'm not about to suggest 'I dont know where we are going this year' or that 'the management doesnt have a clue' on the basis of one meaningless game. I wonder would you have taken Sunday as seriously if Davy Fitzgerald was in charge...or anybody else for that matter.

By the way, I know you've probably been working away hard at it, but i feel it's about time you produced the names of those 50 players...no wait sorry it was 250, that are better than the O'Gormans! :rolleyes:

skaface · 15-02-2012 11:16pm

:cool: Hi guys, first time to comment on here, so go easy on me!!
Some interesting comments on the management goin on here..
Imo i think it,s great we have a Waterford MAN in charge of a
Waterford TEAM this year, no disrespect to the previous men in
charge. I would hope that we can use the Lge to get a settled
side for the c/ship, and hopefully get back to Croker, and with a
bit of luck you never know, it could be our year;)

I think the race for Liam Mc Carthy is wide open this year...
UP THE DEISE

Mountainlad · 15-02-2012 11:55pm

skaface wrote: »

:cool: Hi guys, first time to comment on here, so go easy on me!!
Some interesting comments on the management goin on here..
Imo i think it,s great we have a Waterford MAN in charge of a
Waterford TEAM this year, no disrespect to the previous men in
charge. I would hope that we can use the Lge to get a settled
side for the c/ship, and hopefully get back to Croker, and with a
bit of luck you never know, it could be our year;)

I think the race for Liam Mc Carthy is wide open this year...
UP THE DEISE

Can't go wrong with a bit of faith! Welcome to Boards!

mickmcl09 · 16-02-2012 12:05am

premierstone wrote: »

You raise an interesting issue there mick, the problem is Ryan is caught between a rock and a hard place, as can be seen from the reaction in this thread to Sundays performance people, not all but some, are merely looking for a reason to jump on him, so he kind of needs to get results straight away, when the reality is Waterford should be imo prepared to have a two or three year period of transition where new polayers can be blooded slowly, introduced to senior inter county level, which lets face it bears no resemblence to county minor and we have no idea how those minors will fair.

Some of the comments directed towards Ryan would have one believe that the guy won a raffle to get the job or something, he is there on merit and was the best man for the job, so everyone needs to get behind him and give him the support and encouragement he needs, at the end of the day he's not Davy,

Spot on

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

Hes there because the co. board got him on the cheap. spade a spade.

Really! So who on the list of candidates didn't get the gig because they priced themselves out of the job? You don't do your credibility any favours unless you can stand over statements like that.

Just to go outside the box on this premature Mgt appraisal.
Have any of the current Mgt played intercounty?
It's just, in recent years managers in Galway, KK, Cork, Tipp, Offaly, Clare, Dublin even Wexford are not only intercounty players but former All Stars and I'm wondering has O'Grady who managed Limerick last year, has he got one as well?
So, (because I don't know anything of Ryan's hurling career)is it the County Board who lacked foresight with the appointment? (I apologise in advance as I feel that in a sense this is probably something that should be discussed at the end rather than the start of the managers tenure).

The point I'm making is the discussion on the mgr has spiralled out of control and it will end with a discussion not dissimilar to what I have alluded to above.

Not really constructive is it Deisebhoy.

What would you do if you were the manager? By that I mean on what basis would you be forming the panel for championship and probable qualifiers. Now let's be fair Ryan will deserve alot of back slapping if he brought a Munster championship back to the Deise in 2012.

As we all know from this thread, a slap in the back is only a foot away from a kick in the a¥$€.

suitcasepink · 16-02-2012 1:22am

Surprised theres such little talk of Brian O Sullivan leaving the panel.
Defo gonna miss seeing him for the season...

Twixaroo · 16-02-2012 10:46am

deise_girl wrote: »

Surprised theres such little talk of Brian O Sullivan leaving the panel.
Defo gonna miss seeing him for the season...

Think he's doing a J1 in the summer so that's why he's dropped himself off it. Had a good season last year and thought he would push on this but now the door opens for the other youngsters!

What's the story with Philip Mahony? He's not with a college as far as I know but yet hasn't been involved at all so far has he? Is he injured?

premierstone · 16-02-2012 12:00pm

mickmcl09 wrote: »

Just to go outside the box on this premature Mgt appraisal.
Have any of the current Mgt played intercounty?
It's just, in recent years managers in Galway, KK, Cork, Tipp, Offaly, Clare, Dublin even Wexford are not only intercounty players but former All Stars and I'm wondering has O'Grady who managed Limerick last year, has he got one as well

Not sure its that big of an issue tbh, I'll just take Tipp as an example Declan Ryan won AI medals in three different decades, and Tommy Dunne won an AI and HOTY in 2001, yet they are under serious pressure in Tipp and seem to be struggling somewhat, compare to their predecessor Liam Sheedy who was really only a squad player for a few seasons, I think 1997 was really the only year he held a regualr place on the first 15 and that was because of a few injuries.

Even look at other sports, Arsene Wenger, Jose Mourinho neither played soccer to any significant level but both have reached the very top as managers, its a completely different skill set and personally I dont think its an issue.

solarith · 16-02-2012 12:39pm

The O'Gormans are back with the Footballers.

skaface · 16-02-2012 1:23pm

We can talk all day about what this manager does and what that manager
and coach does in training, but at the end of the day it,s up to the PLAYERS
.Once they cross that WHITE LINE, it,s up to them to perform. If them lads
don,t have the DESIRE & HUNGER to bring Liam mc Carthy back over the River
Suir for the first time since 59 - There must be something wrong.. Hopefully
with a manager from within our own county, he will be able to instill that into
our players.. the talent is there.

UP THE DEISE

solarith · 16-02-2012 1:42pm

skaface wrote: »

We can talk all day about what this manager does and what that manager
and coach does in training, but at the end of the day it,s up to the PLAYERS
.Once they cross that WHITE LINE, it,s up to them to perform. If them lads
don,t have the DESIRE & HUNGER to bring Liam mc Carthy back over the River
Suir for the first time since 59 - There must be something wrong.. Hopefully
with a manager from within our own county, he will be able to instill that into
our players.. the talent is there.

UP THE DEISE

No.

mickmcl09 · 16-02-2012 2:19pm

premierstone wrote: »

Not sure its that big of an issue tbh, I'll just take Tipp as an example Declan Ryan won AI medals in three different decades, and Tommy Dunne won an AI and HOTY in 2001, yet they are under serious pressure in Tipp and seem to be struggling somewhat, compare to their predecessor Liam Sheedy who was really only a squad player for a few seasons, I think 1997 was really the only year he held a regualr place on the first 15 and that was because of a few injuries.

Even look at other sports, Arsene Wenger, Jose Mourinho neither played soccer to any significant level but both have reached the very top as managers, its a completely different skill set and personally I dont think its an issue.

Point taken, Wenger and Mourinho are great examples outside the Sport, but the examples are far and few between. Yes, we've had Cyril Farrell in Galway and Boylan in Meath but 90%+ managers come with a playing pedigree and I think that more often than not this impacts on the respect that players have for the Mgt. I was relating this to the point I made about last Sundays performance which lacked the effort of a team with respect for Mgt.

Declan Ryan and Dunne might be under pressure to get results but the players are going to fight tooth an nail for the next while just to make a panel. Right now you'd be forgiven for thinking the Waterford players know themselves who's going to make their panel.

Sheedy, a very good corner back all the same, who played on a team that was very unlucky not to have won at least 1 All-ireland. I'm sure John Leahy will forever wish to have a goal at his mercy not only once but twice like he did against Clare in '97. The Munster and All-ireland finals for posters not old enough to remember. Sheedy also proved himself as Tipps minor manager and I think he got alot of credit for Dunnes managerial success with the minors and 21s.

Have to agree with you that there is no hard and fast rule about a Mgr's background but having it with man Mgt. skills such as Sheedy is a more likely recipe for success.

Didn't Cody go through an early spell of pressure as well.
Every Manager gets a dose of pressure at some point. It's up to them to manage that pressure.

I said at the end of last year that Waterford would need to go through a transition of sorts which at the time was my reasoning for forecasting that Clare would be stronger than Waterford in 2012 as, as a team they were further along their transition. I still stand by this.

If the Waterford Co. Board and Ryan himself were smart a little propaganda along the lines of saying that the team needed to be rebuilt with upcoming talent around the likes of Brick Walsh, Mullane, Connors, Moran etc it would have dispelled alot of cause for concern.

He could have also rested some of the 'definites' for the Championship.
- it would saved him face with how the Mullane thing was handled
- an opportunity to try out the O'Gormans etc.

As you know yourself, sometimes a player plays better at County level than Club level. Ryan has missed so many opportunities on so many counts. It's ok to miss 1 or 2 but not any more than that.

premierstone · 16-02-2012 2:47pm

mickmcl09 wrote: »

I'm sure John Leahy will forever wish to have a goal at his mercy not only once but twice like he did against Clare in '97. The Munster and All-ireland finals for posters not old enough to remember.

Ah now theres no need to be bringing the dirt into it, jaysus that is below the belt, them scars havent fully healed you know :mad: I still wake up in the middle of the night screaming at him to go across the goalie

Did you know that he actually missed a third one for he's club Mullinahone that cost them a county final that year aswell, no wonder he hit the bottle!

mickmcl09 · 16-02-2012 3:24pm

I wouldn't wish those misses on any player!!!! They are forever haunting for Tipp fans. Saw him as a 16 year old in Croker in 87 in a minor semi final which ye won. He was destined for senior hurling from day 1. My Dad grew up next door with the Sheedys in Portroe hence all the Tipp games I went to as a young (Clare) fella.
Leahy for all his faults has been one of the modern day greats for Tipp not to mention the influence he's had on his club and on hurlers coming out of Mullinahone.

Back to Waterford.
There was a Barron young fella, a minor who put in some serious performances last year at Senior club level. What's the story on him? These are the type of guys you want in the peripheries of a panel. It's amazing how they can develop into intercounty hurlers in a year or two and you still have a very young hurler by any standards.

skaface · 16-02-2012 3:25pm

solarith wrote: »

No.

"NO" to what ???

Mountainlad · 16-02-2012 4:46pm

mickmcl09 wrote: »

I wouldn't wish those misses on any player!!!! They are forever haunting for Tipp fans. Saw him as a 16 year old in Croker in 87 in a minor semi final which ye won. He was destined for senior hurling from day 1. My Dad grew up next door with the Sheedys in Portroe hence all the Tipp games I went to as a young (Clare) fella.
Leahy for all his faults has been one of the modern day greats for Tipp not to mention the influence he's had on his club and on hurlers coming out of Mullinahone.

Back to Waterford.
There was a Barron young fella, a minor who put in some serious performances last year at Senior club level. What's the story on him? These are the type of guys you want in the peripheries of a panel. It's amazing how they can develop into intercounty hurlers in a year or two and you still have a very young hurler by any standards.

Leaving Cert.

mickmcl09 · 16-02-2012 6:19pm

How would you rate him? Has the potential?

Mountainlad · 16-02-2012 6:57pm

Well, he was Waterford minor hurler of the year last year.

deisebhoy17 · 16-02-2012 7:19pm

Mountainlad wrote: »

Ah yeah sure the whole county does, sure that's why we nominated you spokesperson!

If you look at the two posts I've quoted there I'd be grateful, because maybe then you could stop and think about what you're saying. The first was Giveitfong's take on the situation which arose after the news broke of Kelly being dropped and the O'Gorman's being brought on. I edited out most fo the Kelly stuff because it's irrelevant in what I'm trying to say. I think you were very much so included in the first line of what was said. For your information, that post got 11 thanks, 10 if you don't count mine.

The post underneath was a response from Deise Davy, where said things similar to what you're saying. That got 1 thank.

Are you saying that most of the people on this forum are fron FMW/The Nire?

Fair enough, your opinion, but then you keep on wrongly suggesting I am. As I've said a million times I'm from a neighbouring parish, but know several people from that area. I go to the games with them sometimes. They tell me things about their players and I listen.

The fact is you keep trying to pin a non-existent bias for Fourmilewater to me in order to disguise your bias against Michael Ryan. I already did criticise the management for Sunday, something you conveniently ignored. However, I'm not about to suggest 'I dont know where we are going this year' or that 'the management doesnt have a clue' on the basis of one meaningless game. I wonder would you have taken Sunday as seriously if Davy Fitzgerald was in charge...or anybody else for that matter.

By the way, I know you've probably been working away hard at it, but i feel it's about time you produced the names of those 50 players...no wait sorry it was 250, that are better than the O'Gormans! :rolleyes:

Put it this way if you asked me to name the 250 best hurlers in waterford I wouldnt have even thought to include either of them and Id know pretty much every senior club inside out and the best players from each club at intermediate junior grade so I stand by that statement. You probably would have because your from 'a neighbouring parish':rolleyes:

I just notice that any criticism of anything from that club/area your quick to defend it thats all. If your from a neighbouring parish theres certainly little or no parish rivalry anyway in fact quite the opposite! If your reverting to 'thanks' underneath statements to back up your opinions then u kno ur clutching at straws!

deisedude · 16-02-2012 7:36pm

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

Put it this way if you asked me to name the 250 best hurlers in waterford I wouldnt have even thought to include either of them and Id know pretty much every senior club inside out and the best players from each club at intermediate junior grade so I stand by that statement.

You keep saying this. Name your 250 so and back it up

Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

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