Public Service bashing sticks at the ready, call to "benchmark pay again"

Rabidlamb · 13-02-2012 11:27am #1

Colm McCarthy hopping balls, makes sense although we all know this benchmarking thing is a one-way street only.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/colm-mccarthy-lets-benchmark-public-pay-this-time-in-public-3016992.html

The two principal elements in current spending, apart from interest, are the public service payroll and the social welfare budget. On public service pay, government has committed itself to the Croke Park agreement, which ruled out further pay cuts and compulsory redundancies. Job security is a precious concession in today's Ireland, and no significant price was extracted by the government's negotiators at Croke Park. Rather than another across-the-board cut in pay rates, would it not be fairer to conduct a fresh benchmarking exercise, in full public view this time, comparing pay rates across the public services with rates in the private sector in Ireland and in public employment in other European countries?

There is a widespread belief that, particularly when pension entitlements and job security are taken into account, public employees in Ireland are still better off than their private sector neighbours. Moreover it is regularly asserted that Ireland's public officials are better paid than their counterparts in countries on which we now rely for emergency finance. If these beliefs are inaccurate, as the public service trade unions maintain, would it not be best to get the evidence out in the open? If there is substance to them, the government would have a practical case for re-opening Croke Park.

davet82 · 13-02-2012 11:38am

everyone in the private sector and public sector should be made battle each other braveheart style, only way to sort this out

Feeona · 13-02-2012 11:41am

davet82 wrote: »

everyone in the private sector and public sector should be made battle each other braveheart style, only way to sort this out

I bagsy the 'arse baring' side

longshanks · 13-02-2012 11:47am

Feeona wrote: »

I bagsy the 'arse baring' side

Ok, but first tell us a little bit about your arse.

AngryBollix · 13-02-2012 11:47am

Whatever happens in relation to public pay there will be bitching

token101 · 13-02-2012 11:47am

I'd agree with pretty much everything he said. Not going to happen though.

dsmythy · 13-02-2012 11:49am

That's a paddlin'

DrumSteve · 13-02-2012 11:49am

I'm for the PS.

GetWithIt · 13-02-2012 11:53am

token101 wrote: »

I'd agree with pretty much everything he said. Not going to happen though.

That's what she said.

starbelgrade · 13-02-2012 11:55am

DrumSteve wrote: »

I'm for the PS.

Playstations rock.

Feeona · 13-02-2012 11:57am

longshanks wrote: »

Ok, but first tell us a little bit about your arse.

Weeeelllllll ***sends pm*****

StephenHendry · 13-02-2012 12:28pm

frontline services, doctors , nurses are worked very hard and you could see if you were in their position why they would be looking for their benchmark pay etc. we need to look after the front line services as their performance affects us all. anyway new performance guidelines are being drawn up for the PS which focus on performance, underperformance but tacking well is going to be some challenge

coffee_cake · 13-02-2012 12:44pm

he makes sense really

SEPT 23 1989 · 13-02-2012 12:46pm

I would like to see Michael O' Leary in charge of reform of the public sector

CreepingDeath · 13-02-2012 12:56pm

I'd like to see Merkel in charge of the Irish public sector.
Someone outside of Irish politics with a proper sense of perspective.

Rabidlamb · 13-02-2012 1:00pm

bluewolf wrote: »

he makes sense really

So much sense that it could never be implemented.
Can you imagine the reaction of the bearded wonders, trying to justify how our PS should be paid a premium over & above their european colleagues.
You'd think what just happened in Greece in the past 24 hours would send a shiver down the spine of the unions but probably not knowing our lot.

Paddy Samurai · 13-02-2012 1:00pm

Good article in the Irish Times from last year.No hysteria (pitchforks,burning torches)in this one.....

IT IS hard to talk about public policy in Ireland because, when everybody knows the truth, there’s nothing to discuss. Everybody knows, for example, that public servants in Ireland are overpaid. We hold this truth to be self-evident, so axiomatic that you don’t actually have to bother with the evidence. It is beyond rational dispute, writes FINTAN O'TOOLE...................Broadly speaking, what the figures tell us is the vast bulk of public servants in Ireland are not getting salaries and benefits much higher than international norms and that, given the cuts since 2008, many of them are well below those norms. But there are two glaring exceptions.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/1011/1224305578242.html

mikemac1 · 13-02-2012 1:01pm

Nursing used to be a vocation

Then they turned it into a degree course and of course the staff expected graduate salaries

Was it realy worse in the old days when the nuns were in charge of some wards?

Too many clipboard holders around while the assistants do the real work

bobbysands81 · 13-02-2012 1:02pm

I tried to pay my mortgage last month with "job security" but the bank wouldn't accept it.

davet82 · 13-02-2012 1:04pm

bobbysands81 wrote: »

I tried to pay my mortgage last month with "job security" but the bank wouldn't accept it.

I tried to pay mine in skittles and m&m's and they wouldnt take it either the fussy bastards :rolleyes:

bobbysands81 · 13-02-2012 1:06pm

As a Civil Servant I would welcome a new Benchmarking exercise that was done in an open and transparent manner so that all sides could participate and have their say.

I think it would finally allow the Irish public to debunk the myths and downright lies that exist in relation to our pay and conditions.

I am strongly of the opinion that such an independent exercise would have findings that would prove very favourable with the vast majority of PS workers.

bobbysands81 · 13-02-2012 1:08pm

davet82 wrote: »

I tried to pay mine in skittles and m&m's and they wouldnt take it either the fussy bastards :rolleyes:

Skittles and M&Ms actually have a real and intrinsic value, it actually costs money to produce them.

"Job security" (which for the record is NOT guaranteed within the PS) has absolutely no intrinsic value.

davet82 · 13-02-2012 1:13pm

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Skittles and M&Ms actually have a real and intrinsic value, it actually costs money to produce them.
QUOTE]

Thats what i said, they didnt buy it!

I wasnt having a pop at ya btw

CreepingDeath · 13-02-2012 1:31pm

bobbysands81 wrote: »

"Job security" (which for the record is NOT guaranteed within the PS) has absolutely no intrinsic value.

Ye hide behind the trade unions and go running to the shop steward whenever you're asked to do a days work or justify the rampant abuse of sick leave.

Also the now obsolete "defined benefits pensions" that the public sector enjoy are of huge value. Especially with the impending pensions time bomb.
They should all be converted to defined contributions pensions.

Freddie59 · 13-02-2012 1:35pm

CreepingDeath wrote: »

I'd like to see Merkel in charge of the Irish public sector.
Someone outside of Irish politics with a proper sense of perspective.

Agreed. It's only a matter of time until the Public Sector wage bill has to be slashed drastically. I can hear the IMF already:

You're paying [pencil PS position in as required] what??!! WTF?

mikemac1 · 13-02-2012 1:37pm

Yiz are all wrong, we can't expect our public service to work for mickey mouse money

A scandal erupted in April 2007 when former Irish Hospital Consultants’ Association head Josh Keavney described an annual consultants’ salary of €205,000 (plus a 20 percent bonus) as “mickey mouse.” Keaveney, an anaesthetist in Dublin’s Beaumont Hospital, said doctors were being lured to the United States where they could earn $500,000 (approx. €380,000).

His colleague PJ Breen asked: “What kind of house could you buy for €205,000?”

Good question PJ, good question

Freddie59 · 13-02-2012 1:37pm

Rabidlamb wrote: »

So much sense that it could never be implemented.
Can you imagine the reaction of the bearded wonders, trying to justify how our PS should be paid a premium over & above their european colleagues.
You'd think what just happened in Greece in the past 24 hours would send a shiver down the spine of the unions but probably not knowing our lot.

It's not just the Unions though. It's the (senior) Civil Servants; the Politicians (senate still operating after all the promises); etc. Those charged with change will be the most effected. So they won't do it. It HAS to come from outside.

This country suffered a property bubble. All of the aforementioned people live in an economic bubble - ignoring what's going on (even in Greece) hoping it will go away, and that they can keep soaking money from the country that it doesn't have.

Freddie59 · 13-02-2012 1:42pm

An interesting take on Consultants pay:

http://jasonwalsh.ie/jw/?p=857

bobbysands81 · 13-02-2012 3:27pm

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Ye hide behind the trade unions and go running to the shop steward whenever you're asked to do a days work or justify the rampant abuse of sick leave.

What "rampant abuse of sick leave" are you talking about?

Over 50% of public servants take NO sick leave annually.

Civil Servants have an average of 1 day a year uncertified sick leave. That figures shows that in general there is no problem with sick leave in the public service.

You see this is exactly the type of myth that can be debunked if we have an open and honest debate about the public service.

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Also the now obsolete "defined benefits pensions" that the public sector enjoy are of huge value. Especially with the impending pensions time bomb.
They should all be converted to defined contributions pensions.

According to the Irish Pensions Board, Irish Life pensions and other calculators I've crunched numbers on... I fully pay for my state pension as it stands at the moment.

I have no guarantees about that pension and I have no option but to pay into it. Why do you think there is no opt out for our pensions? Why do you think the State takes in FAR more than it pays out in public pensions?

bobbysands81 · 13-02-2012 3:33pm

mikemac1 wrote: »

Yiz are all wrong, we can't expect our public service to work for mickey mouse money

Good question PJ, good question

Brilliant! The simple rule of thumb when it comes to portraying the public sector versus the private sector is inherent in that e-mail... and is as follows:

Take the BEST case scenario within the public service and make believe that everyone in the public sector has similar pay and conditions (in this case that we all get paid over 200k or think it's small beans to be earning).

Then you take the WORST case scenario with the private sector and make believe that everyone in the private sector has similar pay and conditions.

Einhard · 13-02-2012 3:34pm

Hmmm, well don't really know about others in the public service, but I'm about to qualify as a tacher this year and if I get a job, I'll be getting about 23% less than I would have as a teacher two years ago. I'm not complaining about the cut- I'll take that hit, even though it's grossly unfair (existing teachers don't receive the same cut). What i don't like though, is this constant insinuation that I, as a teacher, have somehow been insulated from cutbacks. It simply isn't true.

And that's not even considering the deterioration in working conditions. In one of my classes, I have three eastern European kids with practically no English. A few years ago, there would have been a teaching assistant provided to help them. Now there's none. I take time out of my day to provide them with extra private tuition. Free of charge. I don't say this to boast or anything, but just to point out that the bald headlines rarely tell the full story.

Do there need to be efficencies in the PS? Sure. Was benchmarking an absurd, bvote grabbing exercise? Yes. Are all public servants riding the gravy train? No, of course not- but that seems to be the broad generalisation so often made, and it's slightly tiresome. By all means, let's have a debate. But can those who are engaging in it, on both sides, at least base their points on evidence and facts?

Public Service bashing sticks at the ready, call to "benchmark pay again"

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