Public Service bashing sticks at the ready, call to "benchmark pay again"

Rabidlamb

Colm McCarthy hopping balls, makes sense although we all know this benchmarking thing is a one-way street only.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/colm-mccarthy-lets-benchmark-public-pay-this-time-in-public-3016992.html

The two principal elements in current spending, apart from interest, are the public service payroll and the social welfare budget. On public service pay, government has committed itself to the Croke Park agreement, which ruled out further pay cuts and compulsory redundancies. Job security is a precious concession in today's Ireland, and no significant price was extracted by the government's negotiators at Croke Park. Rather than another across-the-board cut in pay rates, would it not be fairer to conduct a fresh benchmarking exercise, in full public view this time, comparing pay rates across the public services with rates in the private sector in Ireland and in public employment in other European countries?

There is a widespread belief that, particularly when pension entitlements and job security are taken into account, public employees in Ireland are still better off than their private sector neighbours. Moreover it is regularly asserted that Ireland's public officials are better paid than their counterparts in countries on which we now rely for emergency finance. If these beliefs are inaccurate, as the public service trade unions maintain, would it not be best to get the evidence out in the open? If there is substance to them, the government would have a practical case for re-opening Croke Park.

davet82

everyone in the private sector and public sector should be made battle each other braveheart style, only way to sort this out

Feeona

davet82 wrote: »

everyone in the private sector and public sector should be made battle each other braveheart style, only way to sort this out

I bagsy the 'arse baring' side

longshanks

Feeona wrote: »

I bagsy the 'arse baring' side

Ok, but first tell us a little bit about your arse.

AngryBollix

Whatever happens in relation to public pay there will be bitching

token101

I'd agree with pretty much everything he said. Not going to happen though.

dsmythy

That's a paddlin'

DrumSteve

I'm for the PS.

GetWithIt

token101 wrote: »

I'd agree with pretty much everything he said. Not going to happen though.

That's what she said.

starbelgrade

DrumSteve wrote: »

I'm for the PS.

Playstations rock.

Feeona

longshanks wrote: »

Ok, but first tell us a little bit about your arse.

Weeeelllllll ***sends pm*****

StephenHendry

frontline services, doctors , nurses are worked very hard and you could see if you were in their position why they would be looking for their benchmark pay etc. we need to look after the front line services as their performance affects us all. anyway new performance guidelines are being drawn up for the PS which focus on performance, underperformance but tacking well is going to be some challenge

he makes sense really

SEPT 23 1989

I would like to see Michael O' Leary in charge of reform of the public sector

CreepingDeath

I'd like to see Merkel in charge of the Irish public sector.
Someone outside of Irish politics with a proper sense of perspective.

Rabidlamb

bluewolf wrote: »

he makes sense really

So much sense that it could never be implemented.
Can you imagine the reaction of the bearded wonders, trying to justify how our PS should be paid a premium over & above their european colleagues.
You'd think what just happened in Greece in the past 24 hours would send a shiver down the spine of the unions but probably not knowing our lot.

Paddy Samurai

Good article in the Irish Times from last year.No hysteria (pitchforks,burning torches)in this one.....

IT IS hard to talk about public policy in Ireland because, when everybody knows the truth, there’s nothing to discuss. Everybody knows, for example, that public servants in Ireland are overpaid. We hold this truth to be self-evident, so axiomatic that you don’t actually have to bother with the evidence. It is beyond rational dispute, writes FINTAN O'TOOLE...................Broadly speaking, what the figures tell us is the vast bulk of public servants in Ireland are not getting salaries and benefits much higher than international norms and that, given the cuts since 2008, many of them are well below those norms. But there are two glaring exceptions.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/1011/1224305578242.html

mikemac1

Nursing used to be a vocation

Then they turned it into a degree course and of course the staff expected graduate salaries

Was it realy worse in the old days when the nuns were in charge of some wards?

Too many clipboard holders around while the assistants do the real work

bobbysands81

I tried to pay my mortgage last month with "job security" but the bank wouldn't accept it.

davet82

bobbysands81 wrote: »

I tried to pay my mortgage last month with "job security" but the bank wouldn't accept it.

I tried to pay mine in skittles and m&m's and they wouldnt take it either the fussy bastards :rolleyes:

bobbysands81

As a Civil Servant I would welcome a new Benchmarking exercise that was done in an open and transparent manner so that all sides could participate and have their say.

I think it would finally allow the Irish public to debunk the myths and downright lies that exist in relation to our pay and conditions.

I am strongly of the opinion that such an independent exercise would have findings that would prove very favourable with the vast majority of PS workers.

bobbysands81

davet82 wrote: »

I tried to pay mine in skittles and m&m's and they wouldnt take it either the fussy bastards :rolleyes:

Skittles and M&Ms actually have a real and intrinsic value, it actually costs money to produce them.

"Job security" (which for the record is NOT guaranteed within the PS) has absolutely no intrinsic value.

davet82

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Skittles and M&Ms actually have a real and intrinsic value, it actually costs money to produce them.
QUOTE]

Thats what i said, they didnt buy it!



I wasnt having a pop at ya btw

CreepingDeath

bobbysands81 wrote: »

"Job security" (which for the record is NOT guaranteed within the PS) has absolutely no intrinsic value.

Ye hide behind the trade unions and go running to the shop steward whenever you're asked to do a days work or justify the rampant abuse of sick leave.

Also the now obsolete "defined benefits pensions" that the public sector enjoy are of huge value. Especially with the impending pensions time bomb.
They should all be converted to defined contributions pensions.

Freddie59

CreepingDeath wrote: »

I'd like to see Merkel in charge of the Irish public sector.
Someone outside of Irish politics with a proper sense of perspective.

Agreed. It's only a matter of time until the Public Sector wage bill has to be slashed drastically. I can hear the IMF already:

You're paying [pencil PS position in as required] what??!! WTF?

mikemac1

Yiz are all wrong, we can't expect our public service to work for mickey mouse money

A scandal erupted in April 2007 when former Irish Hospital Consultants’ Association head Josh Keavney described an annual consultants’ salary of €205,000 (plus a 20 percent bonus) as “mickey mouse.” Keaveney, an anaesthetist in Dublin’s Beaumont Hospital, said doctors were being lured to the United States where they could earn $500,000 (approx. €380,000).

His colleague PJ Breen asked: “What kind of house could you buy for €205,000?”

Good question PJ, good question

Freddie59

Rabidlamb wrote: »

So much sense that it could never be implemented.
Can you imagine the reaction of the bearded wonders, trying to justify how our PS should be paid a premium over & above their european colleagues.
You'd think what just happened in Greece in the past 24 hours would send a shiver down the spine of the unions but probably not knowing our lot.

It's not just the Unions though. It's the (senior) Civil Servants; the Politicians (senate still operating after all the promises); etc. Those charged with change will be the most effected. So they won't do it. It HAS to come from outside.

This country suffered a property bubble. All of the aforementioned people live in an economic bubble - ignoring what's going on (even in Greece) hoping it will go away, and that they can keep soaking money from the country that it doesn't have.

Freddie59

An interesting take on Consultants pay:

http://jasonwalsh.ie/jw/?p=857

bobbysands81

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Ye hide behind the trade unions and go running to the shop steward whenever you're asked to do a days work or justify the rampant abuse of sick leave.

What "rampant abuse of sick leave" are you talking about?

Over 50% of public servants take NO sick leave annually.

Civil Servants have an average of 1 day a year uncertified sick leave. That figures shows that in general there is no problem with sick leave in the public service.

You see this is exactly the type of myth that can be debunked if we have an open and honest debate about the public service.

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Also the now obsolete "defined benefits pensions" that the public sector enjoy are of huge value. Especially with the impending pensions time bomb.
They should all be converted to defined contributions pensions.

According to the Irish Pensions Board, Irish Life pensions and other calculators I've crunched numbers on... I fully pay for my state pension as it stands at the moment.

I have no guarantees about that pension and I have no option but to pay into it. Why do you think there is no opt out for our pensions? Why do you think the State takes in FAR more than it pays out in public pensions?

bobbysands81

mikemac1 wrote: »

Yiz are all wrong, we can't expect our public service to work for mickey mouse money



Good question PJ, good question

Brilliant! The simple rule of thumb when it comes to portraying the public sector versus the private sector is inherent in that e-mail... and is as follows:

Take the BEST case scenario within the public service and make believe that everyone in the public sector has similar pay and conditions (in this case that we all get paid over 200k or think it's small beans to be earning).

Then you take the WORST case scenario with the private sector and make believe that everyone in the private sector has similar pay and conditions.

Einhard

Hmmm, well don't really know about others in the public service, but I'm about to qualify as a tacher this year and if I get a job, I'll be getting about 23% less than I would have as a teacher two years ago. I'm not complaining about the cut- I'll take that hit, even though it's grossly unfair (existing teachers don't receive the same cut). What i don't like though, is this constant insinuation that I, as a teacher, have somehow been insulated from cutbacks. It simply isn't true.

And that's not even considering the deterioration in working conditions. In one of my classes, I have three eastern European kids with practically no English. A few years ago, there would have been a teaching assistant provided to help them. Now there's none. I take time out of my day to provide them with extra private tuition. Free of charge. I don't say this to boast or anything, but just to point out that the bald headlines rarely tell the full story.

Do there need to be efficencies in the PS? Sure. Was benchmarking an absurd, bvote grabbing exercise? Yes. Are all public servants riding the gravy train? No, of course not- but that seems to be the broad generalisation so often made, and it's slightly tiresome. By all means, let's have a debate. But can those who are engaging in it, on both sides, at least base their points on evidence and facts?

bobbysands81

Freddie59 wrote: »

It's not just the Unions though. It's the (senior) Civil Servants; the Politicians (senate still operating after all the promises); etc. Those charged with change will be the most effected. So they won't do it. It HAS to come from outside.

This country suffered a property bubble. All of the aforementioned people live in an economic bubble - ignoring what's going on (even in Greece) hoping it will go away, and that they can keep soaking money from the country that it doesn't have.

**He says completely ignoring the fact that my take home pay has been reduced by 20% over last two years**

What about the tens of thousands of people who have not lost their jobs nor taken pay cuts, what's your feeling on them?

davet82

Einhard wrote: »

, but I'm about to qualify as a tacher this year ?

just thought i'd point out you cant spell teacher before some other azzhole does...

i'm a petty, petty man

bobbysands81

Einhard wrote: »

Was benchmarking an absurd, bvote grabbing exercise? Yes. Are all public servants riding the gravy train? No, of course not- but that seems to be the broad generalisation so often made, and it's slightly tiresome. By all means, let's have a debate. But can those who are engaging in it, on both sides, at least base their points on evidence and facts?

I think there's been huge amounts of revisionism around the Benchmarking process and why the Benchmarking process was actually brought in.

The public service was haemorrhaging staff every which way and had to respond in order to hang onto staff... the response was to increase pay. I earned more as a assistant to a delivery man that I earned as a middle manager in the Civil Service, I took a pay cut to join.

The question remains... if our jobs are so good then why didn't everyone apply for them?

davet82

Bad Times, Good Job
Bad Job, Good times

Doc Ruby

bobbysands81 wrote: »

I earned more as a assistant to a delivery man that I earned as a middle manager in the Civil Service, I took a pay cut to join.

Bollocks.

Rabidlamb

Einhard wrote: »

Hmmm, well don't really know about others in the public service, but I'm about to qualify as a teacher this year and if I get a job, I'll be getting about 23% less than I would have as a teacher two years ago.

June, July & August.

bobbysands81

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Bollocks.

Not much I can do to prove it mate but I guarantee you it's true.

StephenHendry

this is off topic, but i am doing a thesis atm on how local government, the public service etc. in ireland can show greater leadership. if anyone has any suggestions, ideas they would be most helpful. you can pm me if you want

smash

StephenHendry wrote: »

this is off topic, but i am doing a thesis atm on how local government, the public service etc. in ireland can show greater leadership. if anyone has any suggestions, ideas they would be most helpful. you can pm me if you want

The could take a few tips from Mel Gibson's character in Braveheart!

Doc Ruby

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Not much I can do to prove it mate but I guarantee you it's true.

It's bollocks, as is most of what you're saying.

Furthermore, the authors found that by 2006 senior public service workers earned almost 8 per cent more than their private sector counterparts, while those in lower-level grades earned between 22 and 31 per cent more. The public premium results derived in the paper relating to March 2006, predate the payment of the two most recent Social Partnership wage deals, along with the pay increases awarded in the second Benchmarking exercise and by the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in Reports No. 42 and 43.

bobbysands81

Freddie59 wrote: »

Agreed. It's only a matter of time until the Public Sector wage bill has to be slashed drastically. I can hear the IMF already:

You're paying [pencil PS position in as required] what??!! WTF?

Is €2.5bn annually not enough?

bobbysands81

Doc Ruby wrote: »

It's bollocks, as is most of what you're saying.

Nothing in those articles disproves anything I've said on this thread nor does the piece you've quoted. Maybe you could pick out the exact bit of what I'm saying that you disagree with mate.

StephenHendry

smash wrote: »

The could take a few tips from Mel Gibson's character in Braveheart!

thanks, a inspiring figurehead would certainly help

Doc Ruby

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Nothing in those articles disproves anything I've said on this thread nor does the piece you've quoted. Maybe you could pick out the exact bit of what I'm saying that you disagree with mate.

You're the one making the claims, mate, show us the civil service middle management job that pays the same as a delivery driver's assistant (minimum wage).

Its great to see that the civil service has all the problems of the country solved by the way seeing as you're posting on boards all day. We can expect you to clock out around 4, 4.30 so?

flanders1979

These public jobs were available to almost everyone in the early 2000s. Most people wanted to work in construction or related industries and laughed at the pay available to them in Public Service. Few wanted the secure lowly paid job.
Get over it. This crap is getting old.

Nijmegen

flanders1979 wrote: »

These public jobs were available to almost everyone in the early 2000s. Most people wanted to work in construction or related industries and laughed at the pay available to them in Public Service. Few wanted the secure lowly paid job.
Get over it. This crap is getting old.

What's this 'most people' business? At the height of the boom, April-June 2007 says the CSO, 12.76% of the workforce was in construction.

21.47% were in public administration, education or healthcare.

Also, regardless of your feelings that we should have all jumped on the bangwagon and sorry for missing out, we face simple economic realities today. These realities see us cutting back on services to preserve pencil pushing middle management in the great circular filing system that is the bureaucracy, or for quangos that serve doubled up or just useless functions.

I'd rather drop some of those jobs and hire a few more nurses.

amacachi

Einhard wrote: »

Hmmm, well don't really know about others in the public service, but I'm about to qualify as a tacher this year and if I get a job, I'll be getting about 23% less than I would have as a teacher two years ago. I'm not complaining about the cut- I'll take that hit, even though it's grossly unfair (existing teachers don't receive the same cut). What i don't like though, is this constant insinuation that I, as a teacher, have somehow been insulated from cutbacks. It simply isn't true.

And that's not even considering the deterioration in working conditions. In one of my classes, I have three eastern European kids with practically no English. A few years ago, there would have been a teaching assistant provided to help them. Now there's none. I take time out of my day to provide them with extra private tuition. Free of charge. I don't say this to boast or anything, but just to point out that the bald headlines rarely tell the full story.

Do there need to be efficencies in the PS? Sure. Was benchmarking an absurd, bvote grabbing exercise? Yes. Are all public servants riding the gravy train? No, of course not- but that seems to be the broad generalisation so often made, and it's slightly tiresome. By all means, let's have a debate. But can those who are engaging in it, on both sides, at least base their points on evidence and facts?

The thing is that as far as most people are led to believe there's feck all teachers coming through lately or soon so the cuts they've made will affect hardly anyone. I completely agree that the targetting of new entrants stinks and it represents all that I hate about the way unions and their mates in the government operate. It's a disgrace. Eh, Joe.

MysticalRain

flanders1979 wrote: »

These public jobs were available to almost everyone in the early 2000s. Most people wanted to work in construction or related industries and laughed at the pay available to them in Public Service. Few wanted the secure lowly paid job.
Get over it. This crap is getting old.

Strange. I knew plenty of people applying to the PS back then.

Einhard

Rabidlamb wrote: »

June, July & August.

Wow, clever. My point was that I have taken cuts already, whereas the common meme is that I haven't.

Also, June, July, and August, won't pay my bills.

Also, because of cutbacks, even if I do get a job on qualification, it'll be very unlikely that it'll be permanent, meaning I won't get paid for June, July, and August. I'll be working during those months though.

Anyway, nice attempt at a smart arse answer. Came across as silly and glib more than anything else.

tayto lover

Colm McCarthy is just a well paid mouth-piece who's only objective is to make money for himself. If he can divide the two Sectors and cause mayhem then he will make many radio/t.v. appearances and thus more money for himself.