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The NRA must be stopped

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    #272
    nordydan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭nordydan


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Quite right too, since Belfast and not Cork is the second biggest city in the country. Marvellous how these threads bring out Mé Feiners anxious to elevate the status of the places where they happen to live. The problems with hospitals in he North West are also largely down to this narrowminded thinking.

    Many people from the Republic are very a la carte about Irishness, as regards to NI.

    Note the whinging on another thread about not getting salt out of the Carrickfergus mines. All of a sudden, Antrim is part of the nation. We must have that salt!:mad:

    Then when it comes to boosting the importance of connecting Cork & Galway, its the 2nd & 4th cities (as opposed to the 3rd & 6th). The scope of the nation is defined again. :D

    The border appears and disappears a la carte, depending on the argument.
    antoobrien wrote: »
    ...but it's not right or acceptable that we can leave this country and drive to a main regional center in another country quicker than we can drive between 2 of the main regional centers in this one

    Nonsense argument. Should it be quicker to drive from Sligo (main regional center) to Cork (main regional center) , than from Sligo to Derry (main regional center "in another country")?

    Actual physical distance between cities must be of some importance, regardless of their size


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    #273
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Miles,

    Here are the threads regarding interurban schemes that were upgraded to Motorway status. They contain detailed photos of the schemes as all stages of planning and construction. As you can see none of these schemes are built to 2+2 (Type 2 Dualcarriageway) standard.


    M3 - Clonee to Kells.

    M6 - Kilbeggan to Athlone.

    M6 - Athlone to Ballinasloe.

    M6 - Ballinasloe to Galway.

    M7 - Nenagh to Limerick.

    M7 - Castletown to Nenagh.

    M7/M8 Portlaoise-Castletown-Cullahill Motorway (incl. Abbeyleix Bypass).

    M8 - Cashel to Mitchelstown.

    M8 - Cashel to Cullahill.

    M8 - Mitchelstown to Fermoy.

    M9 - Waterford motorway construction updates

    M11 - Arklow/Gorey Bypass.

    N18 - Limerick Tunnel & South Ring Road Phase II.

    M18 - Gort to Crusheen.

    M50 Upgrade - Phase 2.

    The list above is taken from this thread started by Tremelo


    Here are the relevant acts of the Oireachtas giving motorway status:
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/si/0255.html
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2008/en/si/0279.html

    I believe these trump any email you may or may not have received from a person who works in "PR"


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    #274
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    nordydan wrote: »
    Many people from the Republic are very a la carte about Irishness, as regards to NI.

    Note the whinging on another thread about not getting salt out of the Carrickfergus mines. All of a sudden, Antrim is part of the nation. We must have that salt!:mad:

    Then when it comes to boosting the importance of connecting Cork & Galway, its the 2nd & 4th cities (as opposed to the 3rd & 6th). The scope of the nation is defined again. :D

    The border appears and disappears a la carte, depending on the argument.

    Nordydan since the republic doesn't "own" the 6 counties, we can't spend money there - hence my rankings. It may look a la carte, but it is the political reality, wether or not we like it. If & when that changes, and derry and belfast's economic activities start filling an all-island coffer I'll change my rankings. What other people do/say is neither mine to change, not any of my concern.

    nordydan wrote: »
    Nonsense argument. Should it be quicker to drive from Sligo (main regional center) to Cork (main regional center) , than from Sligo to Derry (main regional center "in another country")?

    Actual physical distance between cities must be of some importance,
    regardless of their size

    If you're going to dismiss something at least take a right look at what you're dismissing. Here's a more detailed quote from the original post I made, which ardmacha partially quoted:
    antoobrien wrote: »
    A friend of mine worked in Cork until Christmas, traveling to Galway reasonably frequently. It never took less than 4 hours (and since he was going west of town, he was lucky with that, cross town traffic is a mess until well after 7 in galway). A quick look at google maps using the route he takes says that this is about 200 km and should take about 2h 45m.

    Or to put it another way, it easier to get to Belfast (371 km via m50, taking 3h 46m - i believe this time figure because it's almost all multi lane road) from his family home in Galway that it is to get to Cork.

    As you can Galway to Cork is a little more than HALF the distance of Galway to Belfast. As other posters have stated, this is not a particularly good thing economically. And if we ever do become an all-island economic entity transport links such as the atlantic corridor (Letterkenny to Cork to Rosslare, to that we could then add in Derry) will be even more vital


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    #275
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Miles, can you add a land take per KM figure to your road type slides, eg Type 1 SC is c.18m excluding berms but adding verges so add a standard nominal berm total to all carriageway and verge widths for a total which when x 1000 = sq metre per km and divide by hectares gives a total Ha per km.

    Yes I know that will be an offline figure and that online is different. Pick an assumptive number for the berms and tell us what it is for the record. I would think 4m maybe.

    The green loonies seem to think that the land take for any road type is in the 1000s of acres per km which is utter hysteria but sadly also a reoccuring meme with that shower of sociopathic loolaas. :(


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    #276
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    shower of sociopathic loolaas. :(

    Careful, now! :pac:


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    #277
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,723 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    miles deas wrote: »
    Regarding the thorn in my side, Mr MYOB. The point about the recent work that is ongoing with Prof. Edgar Morgenroth. We looked at the UK costs of Dual carriageway and WS2. We then used O'Cinneide's accident rates for the 2. After that you can show that with finite resources for a road network in dire need of upgrade more road is built and more lives saved using WS2 than DC before funds are exhausted. A little of the best is not necessarily as good as a lot more of something that is 2nd best or even 3rd. The tipping point where in fact DC offers more lives saved is a long way off so even if NRA costs are different it is unlikely they will change the overall conclusion. We used WS2 not because we wanted to push for that but because it was a useful surrogate for hopefully a better mid-sized road option.

    The UK costs are not even vaguely useful in this scenario, as you have been repeatedly told, due to the road profiles not being the same as built here.

    2+2 *is* the "mid-sized road option". You just won't accept this as you have some ulterior motive going on.
    miles deas wrote: »
    MYOB you maintain 2+2 has not been "made up" to motorway (notice my use of official terminology to please you) I have shown my source and the email quote from the NRA. So far pal you've shown nothing. Would you kindly provide evidence yourself to corroborate your contention, I have, an NRA quote you beat it or I win.

    You have a misquote and a vague reference to a PR guy agreeing with you.

    You are claiming the impossible - a 2+2 is not of the standard to allow it being reclassified as motorway. Also, every inch of reclassified road is detailed in Statutory Instruments and it can be shown that every inch of this is Standard or HQ DC, not 2+2.

    You may notice that everyone else here says you're wrong on this too - you just seem to be picking me out as I've found gaping holes in other things you've claimed as fact and you're desperate to defend them.


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    #278
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Miles Deas: You will find in those Oireachtas Transport Committee transcripts a statement by Fred Barry that Type 2 Dual Carriageway costs approximately 6.5-7 million per kilometre as opposed to 5 million per kilometre for WS2.

    Now we're getting into soapboxing territory here, so I'm going to clarify this for once and for all:

    "2+2" technically means any dual carriageway. These days, however, it almost always refers to Type 2 Dual Carriageway. NO Type 2 Dual Carriageways were ever redesignated motorways by the NRA. When Sean O'Neill told you that 2+2s were redesignated as motorways, he meant non type 2 dual carriageway schemes, such as the Cashel Bypass, Limerick South Ring, Newmarket-on-Fergus Bypass, the Cashel-Cullahill scheme, Crusheen to Gort, Ashbourne, Watergrasshill and Glanmire Bypasses. Had these been Type 2 dual carriageway, they would not have been redesignated because they do not meet the standard.

    Lastly, the NRA has NO plans to build another 800km of motorway, as claimed by Cress and Plan Better. It is FALSE to claim that. The NRA has plans to build many kilometres of Type 2 Dual Carriageway, but NOT 800km of motorway. If people don't accept this fact, on this thread, I'll start infracting.

    I have tried to arrange a Boards.ie interview with the NRA for this forum several times, but have been unsuccessful. I would like to put many questions to them actually.

    But in terms of their plans to build any more Type 1 dual carriageways, aka 'motorway standard' roads, all I can think of are the following:

    M17/M18 Gort to south of Tuam: 50km approx
    M20 Limerick to Cork: 100km approx
    M11 Gorey to Enniscorthy: 30km
    M11 Arklow-Rathnew: 16.3km
    N28 Cork-Ringaskiddy: 13km
    N22 Cork North Ring: 20km approx

    As far as I know, the N25 New Ross Bypass, the Oilgate to Rosslare scheme and the Galway Outer Bypass will be type 2 dual carriageway, or will have at grade junctions/roundabouts, and therefore not consist of type 1 road. I'm open to correction on these three schemes, but even if I'm wrong, you still will not be able to reach that 800km claimed by Plan Better.
    Other proposed upgrades to primary routes such as the N2 (Slane Bypass), N21, N22, N24, and N25 will be Type 2 dual carriageway, which is 30% cheaper to build per kilometre than Type 1 and which cannot be redesignated to motorway.

    Now because Plan Better espoused a factually bogus claim that 800km of new motorway is planned, their views are rightly open to attack and ridicule. They should retract that statement forthwith.


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    #279
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Galway bypass will be Type 1 if it ever gets built.


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    #280
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    Galway bypass will be Type 1 if it ever gets built.

    It will have a few at-grade roundabouts:
    The proposed N6 Galway City Outer Bypass is
    21.4 km long and stretches from An Baile Nua in
    the West to Garraun townland in the East where
    it joins the proposed N6 Galway to Ballinasloe
    Scheme. The Scheme mainline consists of 21.4
    km of predominantly high quality dual carriageway.
    In addition, there are 7.6 km of realigned
    national, regional and local roads and a 1.4 km
    Western Distributor Link Road. There are 13
    new bridges, including a new River Corrib
    crossing, 3 grade separated junctions and 4 new
    roundabout junctions.

    Taken from attached pdf.


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    #281
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    I would not be too sure about the western section, which is not even in redesign cos no money was allocated :) The N59-Airport section, yes.


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    #282
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,723 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    As long as the junction *with* the N59 isn't a RAB, that should be sufficient. A motorway grade DC serving an R road would seem odd under any circumstances.


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    #283
    miles deas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭miles deas


    Tremelo, I didn't make the claim on the 800km's. It was not in my briefing. I have spoken to Sean in the NRA on the matter though, on the phone if not face to face. I took it like a man so please don't infarct me. I'm not Planbetter. I give information to James Nix of Planbetter. I had tried till I was blue in the face to give it direct to the NRA, no joy. James takes the information.

    Regarding Mr MYOB and the exalting (notice for your sake I use the latest official term) I think I may after looking at the first motorway on the list dubhthach kindly posted have written proof see if you follow the logic. In 2008 the M3/N3 scheme is either motorway or Type 2 dual carriageway, see below:

    M3-N3_Clonee-Kells_2008.png
    see, link.

    we know that the exalted to motorway bit must therefore be Type 2 at this moment because you cannot exalt to motorway what is already motorway. The exaltation occurs in 2009, see below:

    Declaration%20Motorway%20N3%20%202009.png

    see, link.

    See the exalted bit on the map its on the scheme, see below:

    N3%20to%20M3%202009%20%281%29.png

    N3%20to%20M3%202009%20%282%29.png

    So If the first on on the list is Type 2 that is sufficient to prove the case. Lets get back to serious consideration of mid-sized road options. Sponge Bob I promise to get that slide to you but only when Mr MYOB agrees to stop bugging me on the type 2 to motorway conundrum. Notice how I always try to show the proof of what I say on the forum when I brief I do my best to be accurate when I'm in error or there is doubt as Mr Antoobrien showed I accept it although I think Mr Antoobrien has shown really they are all guessing on the figures.


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    #284
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    The Type 2 section is the section North of Kells Miles ??? The section you showed in your map is Type 1 ....and I will bet my many many pores on it :D

    Oh look , another MAP . I will further bet that none of the bits marked in RED on that Map are designated as Motorway even though I never druv that M3/N3 .


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    #285
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    As Sponge Bob pointed out the section you are showing on your map is Type 1 motorway with hard shoulders and Concrete crash barriers. The project consisted of the M3 Motorway (Type 1) to Kells. The Kells bypass was built as part of the same project however it starts at a roundabout (where the M3 ends) and consists of 2+2 (Type 2) carriageway around Kells.

    It is signed as the N3 and is not a motorway. I would have thought the fact that the NRA used a + sign was obvious that the scheme consisted of both Motorway and 2+2.

    There is a video that can be found on youtube that is linked to this post by privateBeavis on the M3 thread here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66270272&postcount=771



    This clearly shows that the route you are showing maps for is Type 1.


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    #286
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    It also shows that the NRA were not gung ho building motorways everywhere they possibly could.

    Around when the M3/N3 sections were initially designed the AADT was between 12000 south of Kells, up to 30,000 on the Meath/Dublin border and 9000 north of Kells P 8 of 26 !!!

    It was arguable that Motorways was overkill north of Kells and funnily enough no Motorway was built. Nevertheless something better than S2 was required...even at that time.


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    #287
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,748 ✭✭✭SeanW


    I just drove the M3/N3 through Meath and Dublin a few days ago, so I know from personal experience that what I've read about it is true.

    The total scheme, from Clonee to North of Kells, I believe, was built as one scheme, however with two parts:
    1) The Motorway, from the existing Clonee Bypass (itself now motorway) to just South of Kells, where the M3 ends.
    2) A 2+2 section continuing from the end of the M3 to the Meath Cavan border (the "North of Kells" bit). This section is not under motorway regulations, for reasons which would be obvious if you had the slightest clue what you were talking about.

    Your own first graphic clearly demonstrates that this was the intention i.e. "Motorway + Type 2 Dual Carriageway" i.e. the project planned for both types to be used, as they are at different parts of the project.


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    #288
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    It also shows that the NRA were not gung ho building motorways everywhere they possibly could.

    Around when the M3/N3 sections were initially designed the AADT was between 12000 south of Kells, up to 30,000 on the Meath/Dublin border and 9000 north of Kells P 8 of 26 !!!

    It was arguable that Motorways was overkill north of Kells and funnily enough no Motorway was built. Nevertheless something better than S2 was required...even at that time.

    Yeah I agree, personally I wasn't in favour of the M3 the could probably have gotten away with 2+2 for most of the route. Either that or they shouldn't have built the M2/n2 and instead built some sort of hybrid in the middle route which would have replaced the old N2/N3. Awh well what's built is built.

    I think they (NRA) definitely took a leaf out of Charlie McCreevy's "book"
    “When I have it, I spend it and when I don’t, I don’t”

    There is also the fact that the M3 runs through a certain former Minister of Transport constituency tsk


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    #289
    miles deas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭miles deas


    You can see the word Clonee in the bottom right of my map and the M3 sections just on from it. If I'm wrong I'll admit it but I don't think I am, see below:

    Map%20of%20littlepace.png


    Littlepace%20to%20Lousallagh.png

    Lousallagh%20to%20Pace.png

    Kells%20Clonee.png

    Never bet your pores you may need them. I certainly don't want them. I don't think I'm wrong on location what other quibble next? It took me 10 minutes with this response open and I can feel the sharks circling.


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    #290
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    He has a clue Seán, the problem is a misunderstanding of what a Type 2 is.

    The NRA published this handy brochure with colour pics which is dead clear. Around here we use Type 2 and 2+2 INTERCHANGEABLY = Same Thing. From that doc it is clear that 2+2 is a Midband road architecture in preference to Type3 2+1 , neither high end nor low end.
    There is a large gap, in terms of capacity, cost and safety, between the standard single carriageway and a dual
    carriageway with at grade junctions. This has led the NRA to develop other new divided road categories, which
    provide a capacity range between that of a single carriageway and a dual carriageway, i.e. between 11,600 and
    26,500 AADT.
    Transport 21 sets out the development of some 1200km of the National Primary road network to
    dual-carriageway/motorway standard, which some 1600 km of the National primary road network in Ireland will
    remain as single-carriageway roads due to relatively low traffic volumes. Given the need to provide for vehicles to
    safely overtake slower moving traffic on two-way roads in a safe and controlled environment the Authority looked
    to other countries to see if different divided road types could be introduced in Ireland

    Very little Type 2 has been built, notably only north of Kells and Dromod. None of it has been designated Motorway and speeds of over 100kph are not to be permitted on it owing to inherent design constraints.

    It is designed to ensure reasonably constant 90-100kph speeds unlike the broadly similar WS2 where some blind doddering ignoramus in a Micra can hold the traffic back at 40kph thereby increasing driver frustration and causing accidents...because we have no explicit "move over" laws

    WS2 is really a sop to a once powerful Irish farming lobby, a historic design artefact in effect. Complete waste of space to my mind given driving standards here :(


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    #291
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    miles deas wrote: »
    You can see the word Clonee in the bottom right of my map and the M3 sections just on from it. If I'm wrong I'll admit it but I don't think I am, see below:

    <--snip-->

    Never bet your pores you may need them. I certainly don't want them. I don't think I'm wrong on location what other quibble next? It took me 10 minutes with this response open and I can feel the sharks circling.

    Littlespace to Loughsalla was built in the early 90's. Please have a look at the 1995 aerial pictures on the Ordance Survey of Ireland website:
    http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,703964,741490,5,5

    Here's a screenshot of the 1995 Ordance survey aerial overlay.
    littlespace-loughsalla.png

    2+2 (Type 2) didn't even exist as a design spec in Ireland in the early 90's. This road was built as wide-median dual carriageway. The motorway order you are referencing is the changing of it's status from N3 to M3.

    As for sharks we are in general nice people here. However you can understand how people can be annoyed when repeated items of evidence are produce and you still keep making mistaken comments over where the 2+2 (Type 2) section of the scheme is.


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    #292
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,748 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Google Maps isn't very accurate in relation to the M3, GM shows the M3 ending too far South (of Kells), and starting North of Dunboyne which is also wrong (it starts closer to the city).

    As to the sections of N3 which are dual carriageway but not motorway:
    1) The N3 from South of Kells to the Meath-Cavan border has no hard shoulders and is interrupted by roundabouts.
    2) The N3 from Clonee into the City comprises firstly of the Blanchardstown Bypass, largely Type 1 DC but with bus lanes and the like in parts, a partially grade separated junction with the M50, then finally a section of urban dual carriageway, before becoming city streets.

    Edit: for a more accurate view of the M3/N3, have a look at OpenStreetMap:


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    #293
    veryangryman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,532 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    Oh lord there are just some people who will not see... I guess Jesus loves them anyway...

    Tremolo, sorry for trolling, im just trying to fit in with the way the thread is heading...


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    #294
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,723 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    miles deas wrote: »
    In 2008 the M3/N3 scheme is either motorway or Type 2 dual carriageway, see below:

    The Type 2 is new build from Kells to the Meath border. The redesignated section was 1990s build standard DC.

    No Type 2 was redesignated. Anywhere.

    When are you just going to accept you're wrong on this? I'm only "bugging you" because this is one of the many things you're wrong on, and only one where you thought you could "prove" yourself right if you tried hard enough.


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    #295
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,723 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Oh, btw - Pace is actually a significant distance away from Littlepace. Its north of Dunboyne.


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    #296
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Anyway this planbetter is anything but, it is a front for bog standard loony greens with a respectable name ...that's all. We do need a debate on extent of the tiger era 2+2 program, notably the N24 N25 N21 N22 N5 N15 N2 N3 N4 and N17 schemes. No Motorway is proposed save on key Intercity corridors like Galway - Cork, North of Enniscorthy and south of Ashford and less justifiably south of Enniscorthy where the argument is weak and where 2+2 Offline would appear to suffice.

    However that debate should trend towards proper planning and road safety and not towards the economically illiterate idiot nimbyism we hear from the usual suspects :(


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    #297
    miles deas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭miles deas


    Sponge I'm not advocating WS2 as I said the study used it as a surrogate for some other mid AADT alternative. Look I just want you clever road chaps to put your thinking caps on for an alternative. Harness the enthusiasm and actually come up with a new road layout. They'll never listern to me anyway so humour me or I'll stop responding and you'll only have 1 comment seppuku loving surrender monkeys (Sponges descriptor I think) to kick about. I have a meeting mid March you wanted a meeting well I've got one. regarding quotes like Sponges last I got one too:

    Interim%20Road%20Design%202006%209%2C1%20-%20NRA.png

    Its from the NRA in 2006. They adapted to new economics in 2007. Now its time to adapt again. The gap between SSC and Dual Carriageway needs to be filled again. We need a low cost alternative. If you humour me and design a low cost mid-sized road I'll let one of you give me a Chinese burn now you know that's why you populate this thread. Can someone just contact the NRA and get written clarification and post the email please.

    dubhthach, that movie was really interesting remind me never to come over to yours for beers and a video. Lord knows what it all meant. its like having a trip on speed.

    Tremelo can you point me to that Dail costings quote?


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    #298
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,723 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    miles deas wrote: »

    Its from the NRA in 2006. They adapted to new economics in 2007. Now its time to adapt again. The gap between SSC and Dual Carriageway needs to be filled again. We need a low cost alternative. If you humour me and design a low cost mid-sized road I'll let one of you give me a Chinese burn now you know that's why you populate this thread. Can someone just contact the NRA and get written clarification and post the email please.

    They didn't "adapt to new economics". The adapted to the abject failure of 2+1 once trialled in Ireland. Four schemes were tried, none have worked. One (N24 Piltown) is verifiably more dangerous than the road it replaced in pure road death figures, this despite massive improvements in car standards and reductions in drink driving.

    You don't know a thing about roads, and you're making this clearer by the minute.

    2+2 is the only mid-sized road format we're going to get. Accept it, just like you need to accept that they've never been reclassified as motorway.

    If you'd put down your UK pricebook you could maybe accept that they cost little less than your beloved, yet lethal, WS2 too.


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    #299
    miles deas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭miles deas


    Economics, lets talk about Optimism Bias uplifts on major projects after we've built the MYOB inter connector mid-sized road option.


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    #300
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,723 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    miles deas wrote: »
    Economics, lets talk about Optimism Bias uplifts on major projects after we've built the MYOB inter connector mid-sized road option.

    ye wha?


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    #301
    miles deas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭miles deas


    A little quote from another road authority:
    "Managing Down Costs on Highway Schemes

    Idea 224 - Defer Widening By Allowing Hard-Shoulder Running"

    Its no the idea its the sentiment hundreds of radical ideas to save money. Now why can't we do the same fellas? lets design a road.


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