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The NRA must be stopped

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    #242
    miles deas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭miles deas


    Comparison%20UK%20Irish%20Dual%20Carrigeway%20Cross-Sec.png


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    #243
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    miles deas wrote: »
    Gentlemen, Below is an image I hope comes out comparing UK D2AP dual carriageway to NRA Type 1 and 2. There is 30cm, 1 foot, a child's school ruler difference in size on 2 lanes of carriageway. They are practically identical.

    Comparison%20UK%20Irish%20Dual%20Carrigeway%20Cross-Sec.png

    (me been Pedantic)

    There is 30cm in difference between the two driving lanes however there are differences also on central median/hard shoulders.

    Adding up all the measurements you get:
    • UK D2AP= ((2.5m + 1m + 7.3m + 1m)*2) + 2.5m = 26.1m
    • Irish Type 2 = ((3m + 0.5m + 7m + 0.5m)*2) + 1.5m = 23.5m

    So total width difference (including grass verge) of 2.6m (8.5 feet). Or 1.3m per directional carriageway (4.25feet). Little bit more then a child's ruler

    --Edit--

    Type 1 Dual carriageway (Motorway) is 27.6m wide, so difference between it and Type 2 is 4.1m (13.45 feet)


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    #244
    miles deas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭miles deas


    Come on fellas, the carriageway is 30cm different. Surely you can see the point we need to be developing the whole network not just little bits in a big way. With the present climate every gold-plated project is going to give the Minister of Transport an ulcer. You'll get very little that way.


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    #245
    newmug
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,571 ✭✭✭newmug


    antoobrien wrote: »
    apparently we have so little land the greens don't seem to mind converting some of it into a lake . I'd rather see roads built that will actually serves a purpose thanks.

    The greens are dreamers. That lake idea is insane. But we have enough roads. Enough. I'd rather see my money being spent on hospitals and schools thank you!


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    #246
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,871 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    miles deas wrote: »
    Come on fellas, the carriageway is 30cm different.

    And the carriageway is not the land-take.

    Accept it, a UK dual carriageway is not a comparable profile road, just as their single carriageways are not comparable either. You don't seem to be tackling this one, maybe you've realised the gulf is so huge you can't try and explain it away.
    miles deas wrote: »
    MYOB you are in error on all of you're clever counters to selected quotes by me. Just ring the NRA they will confirm 2+2's have been upgraded to motorway. I doubt they would either lie or be factually incorrect. I question the direction they are still taking not their professionalism.

    Not in error on a single one, sorry. You're using incorrect data to try and prove a point.

    You are the one claiming (incorrectly) that 2+2s have been redesignated *or* upgraded, how about you ring the NRA and provide details of what 2+2s and where.

    Also, I'd have hoped you'd know that "redesignation" and "upgrading" are two extremely different concepts.


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    #247
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    miles deas wrote: »
    Using all available NRA automatic traffic counters 2007-2010, traffic has reduced by 6.1%. The trend of reduction is greater year on year.

    Just to be picky here's an analysis of the data taken on the tolled section of the M6 for 2010 vs the traffic counter at Kilreekill (not to far after Loughrea, smack in the middle of the section the toll dodgers use) for 2009.

    Bare numbers:
    147344.png

    On the face of it we have seen a drop in people using the roads in east Galway. But this does not take into account the number of people using the R446. When we add in these figures we see a different story, for the ten months where we have statistics on both roads we see an increase in traffic of 28% (average).

    147345.png

    This illustrates the fact that the traffic data is very incomplete in this country. Does anybody believe that there was about an increase of 30% in traffic in Galway within the space of two months - I seriously doubt it.

    Finally a comparison of N6/R446 traffic in 2009 vs 2010, we see an average 62% drop in traffic on the road.
    147346.png

    I can think of two reasons why there might be so many people on the N6 (NRA generally assumes 75% reduction) without presuming they're all dodging tolls.
    i) L drivers aren't supposed to use Motorways (in my gullibility I'll presume they're law abiding)
    ii) changed driving habits of local traffic (people that used back roads to avoid heavy/slow traffic to go shortish distances using the R446 where they wouldn't have now using the N6).
    miles deas wrote: »
    From one of the authors of that Irish Times piece you so glibly dismissed. The jokes on you fellas not me

    Using these figures (i know they're not national - i don't have the time or inclination to do that much work for free), you can see why we would glibly dismiss this argument.

    Buddy, the joke is very firmly on you.


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    #248
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Here are our dual standards. There are 2 x D2M Versions and a Third named D2AP depending on parallel roads

    I am getting a feckin headache with all these different Type 1 ( D2M) and Type 2 ( D2AP) 'standards'. :(

    Like I said WS2 is gone no matter what UK manuals say ....did you ask the NRA about it ??
    miles deas wrote: »
    Comparison%20UK%20Irish%20Dual%20Carrigeway%20Cross-Sec.png

    Here are the single standards including Type 3 single. Any chance you can do that graphic separately for singles please, it would help a lot. :)

    For the completists Wide Single is now gone and replaced by three standards although the latter one is a 'pilot' and only for sub 5k a day traffic roads like the schemes proposed on the N56 and N59

    Standard ( AKA S2 AKA Type 1 SC) = 3m Verge + 2.5m HS + 3.65+3.65 Carriageway + 2.5m HS + 3m Verge = 12m Pavement and 6m Verge ( probably now Type 1 SC)

    Reduced Standard     ( AKA RSSC AKA RS2 AKA Type 2 SC) = 3m Verge + 0.5m HS + 3.5+3.5 Carriageway + 0.5m HS + 3m Verge = 8m Pavement and 6m Verge

    TYPE 3 Single Carriageway ( AKA T3SC ) = 1.5m Verge + 0m HS + 3.5+3.5 Carriageway + 0.0m HS + 1.5m Verge = 7m Pavement and 3m Verge


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    #249
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Just ring the NRA they will confirm 2+2's have been upgraded to motorway.

    They won't. If you claim that some 2+2 has been called motorway would you be kind enough to identify the location?
    I doubt they would either lie or be factually incorrect.

    They might or might not, but you seem perfectly willing to be factually incorrect.


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    #250
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Here is another lot of standards, list from 2007 :)

    http://www.nra.ie/Publications/DownloadableDocumentation/RoadDesignConstruction/file,11472,en.pdf

    Series 000 Road Type and Cross Section
    RCD No. Title
    RCD/000/1 Reduced Single Carriageway (S2)
    RCD/000/2 Standard Single Carriageway (S2)
    RCD/000/3 Type 3 Dual Carriageway
    RCD/000/4 Type 2 Dual Carriageway (D2AP)
    RCD/000/5 Type 1 Dual Carriageway (D2AP)
    RCD/000/6 Standard Dual Carriageway Motorway (D2M & D2UM)
    RCD/000/7 Wide Dual Carriageway Motorway (D2M)

    The same list appears in the 2009 iteration of standards HERE . I pulled the cross sections for all of those designs into the attached PDF seeing as the link there is 20mbit in size.

    Once these are tabulated adequately (absent Type 3 DC which is effectively gone gone along with WS2) and along with the more recent Type 3 SC I specced a few posts back we will then get to the thorny issue of traffic...which is rising along the M6 corridor now the road isn't crap any more :D


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    #251
    runway16
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭runway16


    newmug wrote: »
    The greens are dreamers. That lake idea is insane. But we have enough roads. Enough. I'd rather see my money being spent on hospitals and schools thank you!

    Here's a novel concept - without a proper transport system and road network (and relative to other developed countries, ours are still some way behind), you do not create good conditions for business, and as such the tax take is reduced below what it could be, meaning LESS MONEY FOR SCHOOLS AND HOSPITALS.

    Think about it....


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    #252
    miles deas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭miles deas


    Thanks Sponge Bob, I'll put them into a slide in the next few days (do you need UK SSC in as well?) and if you give me your email (if that is allowed) I'll send it you. For the moment this is what I already had:

    Comparison%20UK%20Irish%20Single%20Carrigeway.png

    Sorry regarding the WS2 I think we were at cross purposes indeed it is cut from the NRA schedule but still available in the UK. I'm in contact with the Safe Roads Design team in the UK and will try to find out more about their experiences of WS2 and any pilots or barriered variants. I'm sure this has already been done but if I can bring anything new I will.

    Regarding the ongoing rant about 2+2's not being magicked into motorway the reality is I was emailed by the communications director of the NRA that they had been. He is well informed, believes passionately in his work and is now thanks to a certain Monday Drive Time episode is completely pissed off with me. Although I did not do the radio slot I did brief the man who did although what annoyed Sean was not in my brief. I can understand why he is annoyed and I can hardly approach him back to clarify said above information at the moment but one thing I would say he knows his stuff and if he says 2+2 metamorphosed into motorway then thats good enough for me. I hope I used correct terminology regarding the ROADS ACT 2007 (DECLARATION OF MOTORWAYS). I would hate to offend MYOB's sensibilities on the matter. Regarding UK D2AP and NRA type 2 the majority of the difference is in the verge and central reserve. You might drive on those bits I don't there coloured green for a reason you don't drive on the.

    Regarding Antoobrien's comment the joke is on all of us because we use this data to make decisions costing us our tax contributions. We cannot go half arsed at prioritising roads and specifying their size any more all the low lying fruit of the MIU routes are gone. We need more traffic counters and lots of them to know where to go next and to what extent. New counters are popping up on that list all the time I compiled the excel that showed falling traffic in July 2010. Speak to the CSO in Cork their data comes out soon but again methodologicly it has problems we need better data before we invest billions.

    What is your vision on future investment? I get a lot of negative **** for hours of work trying to save the country billions and get a better network. If this is what the NRA has to put up with, **** that for a game of soldiers.


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    #253
    miles deas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭miles deas


    Oh, And by the way I put more hours doing 15,000 words of evidence based transport policies across the EU together to try to help the state. What the **** did you do lately to improve our lot?


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    #254
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    miles deas wrote: »
    Oh, And by the way I put more hours doing 15,000 words of evidence based transport policies across the EU together to try to help the state. What the **** did you do lately to improve our lot?

    Nobody here knows who you are or what you've done. You're an anonymous poster on this site just like the rest of us. Trust and respect is earned gradually on forums such as this through a combination of high quality posting and civility.


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    #255
    miles deas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭miles deas


    Then rather than knocking everything I post come up with some good ideas to improve transport for less.


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    #256
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    By and large, posters here are under no illusions about the need to scale back the road-building plans of the NRA. I think certain schemes need to be re-prioritised or dropped. I outlined my own suggestions here, as did several other posters. You'll also find some money-saving suggestions here and here. Have a really decent read through the forum and you'll see a lot of arguments about rationalising routes, detrunking secondary roads, and scaling back certain projects. Use this thread to help you find your way around :)


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    #257
    miles deas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭miles deas


    Thanks for that reading now. Still haven't found a mid sized road option. I worry about 10 years of inequality where one county gets a Rolls Royce road because their TD's are connected. Where as some back water counties get nothing. What is wrong with lowering the bar and spreading the value?


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    #258
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Actually here is where I outlined my views in more detail. I'm of the opinion that we can't, as a nation, spread the jam around so widely that every county gets a bit. Upgrades must be targeted where they will provide maximum national benefit, in terms of connecting multiple regions or stimulating economic activity in areas of high population density. That's why I favour schemes like the N28 Cork to Ringaskiddy project and the N24 above the N11 Oilgate to Rosslare project for instance. I would sacrifice the N11, or scale it down, if it meant that connections between Waterford, Limerick and Galway could be improved (i.e. the N24 Pallasgreen to Cahir scheme) or that the N28 could be built. We need to pinpoint a small number of priorities and deliver an appropriate standard of road.

    I don't think any poster here favours any more long-distance Type 1 motorways beyond the M20, the M18/M17, and the M11 to south of Enniscorthy. There is debate about what is to be done about Dublin-Derry. I favour the M22 Cork North Ring, but would accept a Type 2 solution if it was all that was available. The N28 needs to be type 1 (and will be) because of its AADT and safety. But it and the proposed N22 North Ring are very short schemes. For long schemes (say >20km) seeking to upgrade N roads, type 2 dual carriageway seems best to me, for safety and efficiency reasons. This has been debated across the forum in multiple threads (all of which are tagged). This is all old ground for me, and I am already repeating what I've written many times before... signing off for now.


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    #259
    newmug
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,571 ✭✭✭newmug


    runway16 wrote: »
    Here's a novel concept - without a proper transport system and road network (and relative to other developed countries, ours are still some way behind), you do not create good conditions for business, and as such the tax take is reduced below what it could be, meaning LESS MONEY FOR SCHOOLS AND HOSPITALS.

    Think about it....


    You're right, it IS novel!!!! Because A) for the size and population of our country, we are NOT behind other developed countries, in fact we have more road per head of population than most, and B) if the whole country was just one massive, flat, piece of tar, it takes a whole lot more than that to attract FDI's.


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    #260
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,871 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    miles deas wrote: »

    Sorry regarding the WS2 I think we were at cross purposes indeed it is cut from the NRA schedule but still available in the UK. I'm in contact with the Safe Roads Design team in the UK and will try to find out more about their experiences of WS2 and any pilots or barriered variants. I'm sure this has already been done but if I can bring anything new I will.

    UK WS2 is *still* a narrower profile than ours was. You can literally overlay a 2+2 on a recent WS2 road by fitting a barrier and changing the markings. You can't do this on a UK WS2

    Also, a "barriered WS2" is either a 2+2, or a road completely useless for any traffic at all due to an inability to pass slow moving vehicles. Slow moving vehicles do not and will not use laybys on single carriageway roads as a lengthy pilot in Donegal has shown.
    miles deas wrote: »

    Regarding the ongoing rant about 2+2's not being magicked into motorway the reality is I was emailed by the communications director of the NRA that they had been. He is well informed, believes passionately in his work and is now thanks to a certain Monday Drive Time episode is completely pissed off with me. Although I did not do the radio slot I did brief the man who did although what annoyed Sean was not in my brief. I can understand why he is annoyed and I can hardly approach him back to clarify said above information at the moment but one thing I would say he knows his stuff and if he says 2+2 metamorphosed into motorway then thats good enough for me. I hope I used correct terminology regarding the ROADS ACT 2007 (DECLARATION OF MOTORWAYS). I would hate to offend MYOB's sensibilities on the matter. Regarding UK D2AP and NRA type 2 the majority of the difference is in the verge and central reserve. You might drive on those bits I don't there coloured green for a reason you don't drive on the.

    So you can't provide any details of what 2+2's were apparently upgraded then?

    That's because there weren't any. Sean O'Neill is a PR man, he is not a roads expert. You're believing someone who works in PR over people who actually know every inch of the national route network.

    This isn't a rant, its about very basic facts. You have very basic facts wrong on this, on road types, and on safety; and you argue at length rather than accepting correction. Hence everything else you bring to the table is automatically suspect.

    miles deas wrote: »
    Thanks for that reading now. Still haven't found a mid sized road option. I worry about 10 years of inequality where one county gets a Rolls Royce road because their TD's are connected. Where as some back water counties get nothing. What is wrong with lowering the bar and spreading the value?

    We have lowered the bar. 2+2 is not an expensive road type. Anything below it is not suitable for even medium level traffic or long distance routes. WS2 is lethal and not suitable for anywhere.


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    #261
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    newmug wrote: »
    You're right, it IS novel!!!! Because A) for the size and population of our country, we are NOT behind other developed countries, in fact we have more road per head of population than most,

    Measuring road distance by head of population is meaningless, beancounting rubbish. Qualitatively our national road network is very poor. E.g. Travelling between Cork, Limerick & Galway (the 2nd, 3rd & 4th cities in the country) takes an inordinate amount of time because of the poor road s (structureal design & route). A friend of mine worked in Cork until Christmas, traveling to Galway reasonably frequently. It never took less than 4 hours (and since he was going west of town, he was lucky with that, cross town traffic is a mess until well after 7 in galway). A quick look at google maps using the route he takes says that this is about 200 km and should take about 2h 45m.

    Or to put it another way, it easier to get to Belfast (371 km via m50, taking 3h 46m - i believe this time figure because it's almost all multi lane road) from his family home in Galway that it is to get to Cork.
    newmug wrote: »
    and B) if the whole country was just one massive, flat, piece of tar, it takes a whole lot more than that to attract FDI's.

    You're in the roads sub forum of the infrastructure forum, go read the threads about broadband, rail, water metering etc to get a flavor of what we discuss here - nobody is advocating anything as silly as that, so if you'd like to be taken seriously don't spout rubbish like this.

    But, just to address that point - roads is a reason why factories & business are not locating to the west of Ireland (and are leaving it), so that's one reason why I'm firmly for the right roads being built.

    You've said:
    newmug wrote: »
    I'd rather see my money being spent on hospitals and schools thank you!
    We've enough hospitals around the country - what we don't have it the transport network to allow us to put services where they are needed and can be medically effective.

    I'll give two examples on this - the cancer care situation in Sligo & the North West where patients have to travel to Galway & the hospitals in Athlone - Ballinasloe & Roscommon.

    Galway & Sligo - we don't have the rail or roads system to make this care situation practical. This alone, regardless of the other considerations that come into play, make this reorganisation a silly idea because it's making it harder for patients to get the treatment they need.

    We have hospitals in Roscommon, Ballinasloe & Athlone (41, 28 & 20km away from each other, hardly 20 minutes by car) - but we can't reorganise this system to be effective because the areas they are covering have even worse transport links. So regardless of personal beliefs of the medical or economic necessity for reorganisation of hospitals to provide Better patient services (and I'm not trying to start this debate) we can't do it for practical reasons - it's hard to get the patients to these services.

    Building any new hospitals won't help improve this part of our health system (and what will is not an argument for here) - I won't speak for the national situation, but i suspect we can find similar situations across the country. Indeed, tallaght hospital is an amalgamation of a the Adelaide & Meath hospitals in Dublin. This new hospital from planning to opening took 17 years (from a wikipedia article, so i'm not sure about it's trustworthiness), so don't expect new hospitals to spring up overnight either.

    Schools are needed, both improvement/rebuilding and entirely new facilities. Building them will give a short term economic boost and provide employment (or prevent unemployment). However, they do not provide long term prospects, which, sadly our country needs.

    Personally I think we should cut spending on public wages to pay for the capital infrastructure we require (roads, rail, broadband, water, electricity etc) - because short term spending that we have to borrow to provide for isn't going to get us out of this mess.


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    #262
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    miles deas wrote: »
    Thanks for that reading now. Still haven't found a mid sized road option.
    That was Type 3, now RIP save for a potential refit of a WS2.

    If you knock up the S Road slide just post it in here for reference. I thought the D2 slide was a damn fine representation even if we are quibbling about 'standards' just a bit. Slapping every UK and Irish S2 and D2 variant into 2 graphics is most helpful especially when Frank McD and the misc NIMBYs start their asinine ululatiing about millions of acres disappearing on us...which is not the case at all.

    This forum is not in the least fractious...save where an implication is made that the regular posters have not thought about something AT ALL. That is not the case as Tremelo pointed out. Furthermore quite a lot of regular posters have represented their views directly to the NRA at various times in the past.

    I would ask the mods to maybe slice the end of this thread out into a "Post IMF Road Design Standards" thread where it belongs, starting with the graphics of the design standards themselves.

    Then we can have a nice natter about what it all means in reality <cough> Going Forward </cough> :D


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    #263
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Or to put it another way, it easier to get to Belfast (371 km via m50, taking 3h 46m - i believe this time figure because it's almost all multi lane road) from his family home in Galway that it is to get to Cork.

    Quite right too, since Belfast and not Cork is the second biggest city in the country. Marvellous how these threads bring out Mé Feiners anxious to elevate the status of the places where they happen to live. The problems with hospitals in he North West are also largely down to this narrowminded thinking.


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    #264
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Quite right too, since Belfast and not Cork is the second biggest city in the country.
    Unfortunately for that argument we don't have jurisdiction over Belfast, so sorry for you but it's not right or acceptable that we can leave this country and drive to a main regional center in another country quicker than we can drive between 2 of the main regional centers in this one


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    #265
    newmug
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,571 ✭✭✭newmug


    antoobrien wrote: »
    You're in the roads sub forum of the infrastructure forum, go read the threads about broadband, rail, water metering etc to get a flavor of what we discuss here - nobody is advocating anything as silly as that, so if you'd like to be taken seriously don't spout rubbish like this.

    Excuse me, but the title of the thread is "The NRA must be stopped". I happen to agree. How dare you dismiss my point as rubbish just because you disagree. Thats the height of ignorance.

    As for the quality of our road networks, I agree they need a serious overhaul. But we dont need new, extra motorways. As for your example of your freind taking 4 hours to drive from Cork to Galway, well what the hell do you expect? They're geographically a reasonably long distance apart! How long do you think it should take? Why do you think a whole new road needs to be built?

    I wont lower myself to call your point of view "spouting rubbish", but I will intelligently and respectfully point out that throwing money at roads we dont need and cant afford is not going to attract or keep any business here no more than throwing money at railways, inter-canal boat hire, or any other crazy transport scheme. Keeping business in Ireland is not the NRA's function. I will remind you again that this thread is about the NRA's wastage and the concept that they must be stopped.


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    #266
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    There was me thinking that this was the official Whackamole thread for dealing with whatever form of economic seppuku An Taisce/Isaac/Frank/Greens propose at any given time . :cool:


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    #267
    KevR
    Registered Users Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    newmug wrote: »
    But we dont need new, extra motorways. As for your example of your freind taking 4 hours to drive from Cork to Galway, well what the hell do you expect? They're geographically a reasonably long distance apart! How long do you think it should take? Why do you think a whole new road needs to be built?

    I wont lower myself to call your point of view "spouting rubbish", but I will intelligently and respectfully point out that throwing money at roads we dont need and cant afford is not going to attract or keep any business here no more than throwing money at railways, inter-canal boat hire, or any other crazy transport scheme. Keeping business in Ireland is not the NRA's function. I will remind you again that this thread is about the NRA's wastage and the concept that they must be stopped.

    Regarding the first paragraph, read my post about how it is not acceptable from an economic point of view to have high journey times between nationally important economic hubs.

    Yes, we do need the M20 and M17/18. We can't afford not to have our 2nd, 3rd and 4th cities properly connected.

    Journey times of 4 hours between Galway and Cork is not good for economic activity. It's only 200km so 2 hours would be acceptable in my opinion. And don't forget that if we connect Galway and Cork we will have connected Galway to Limerick and Cork to Limerick in the process.

    Building the M20 as a new build is not wastage by the NRA. In theory, they could upgrade the existing N20. Do you honestly think this would be a cheaper option?
    • It is very costly to carry out large upgrade work on a road with a live traffic flow.
    • The work would take a lot longer (higher labour costs).
    • Detailed traffic management plans would have to be drawn up and implemented (costly!).
    • It would cause years of disruption and misery for everyone who lives on/near the route or anyone who has to use it.
    • The end result would not be as good despite it could roughly the same amount.


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    #268
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    newmug wrote: »

    As for the quality of our road networks, I agree they need a serious overhaul. But we dont need new, extra motorways. As for your example of your freind taking 4 hours to drive from Cork to Galway, well what the hell do you expect? They're geographically a reasonably long distance apart! How long do you think it should take? Why do you think a whole new road needs to be built?

    There is an entire thread regarding the M20 here if you need to aquaint yourself with the facts : M20

    The distance between Eyre Square in Galway to the River Lee (Carroll's Quay) is 195km. On a 4hour trip this works out as an average of 48.75kph. This has serious implications for the economic health of the entire region. In comparison it's about 196km from Eyre Square to the M50, however you can do this trip in close on half the time.

    Anyways as outlined in the M20 thread the current road is an antiquated death trap that needs to be replaced. Given that it will be linking Cork with Limerick and onward to Galway it needs to be properly future-proofed.


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    #269
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    newmug wrote: »
    and B) if the whole country was just one massive, flat, piece of tar, it takes a whole lot more than that to attract FDI's.
    newmug wrote: »
    How dare you dismiss my point as rubbish just because you disagree. Thats the height of ignorance.

    I just don't agree with you - you seem to be saying that we're intent on tarring the entire surface of the country. That is spouting rubbish, and to call somebody up on writing drivel like this, especially when they are not making reasoned arguments is far from ignorance. In fact where I come from thats regarded as fishing for insults.
    newmug wrote: »
    Excuse me, but the title of the thread is "The NRA must be stopped". I happen to agree.
    So what I'm not allowed disagree with the OP and thread title (as many people on here have)? As I said before (in this thread), I think we need these roads and now is the perfect time to get them built - while costs should be lower, not waiting several years until cost rise and traffic builds past unbearable levels again.

    What is it we have in his country against providing spare capacity anyways? It's not as if it's actually wasteful - what is wasteful is building a system (not just roads) that has just enough spare capacity to seem prudent but when when things actually kick off end up being not enough (M50 is a case in point with this).


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    #270
    serfboard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Just on the Cork-Galway thing, folks, I drove Cork->Galway before Christmas (off-peak mind).

    From the most northerly set of traffic lights on the N20 in Cork, to Oranmore took just over 2 hours. (I think about 2:15). Of course, that's precisely because the M18 is nearly all dual carriageway/motorway now and Limerick is completly bypassed.

    On the way down, Gort to Banogue took about one hour. Great progress.

    If/when we build the M18 and M20 then, as others have stated, the second, third and fourth biggest towns in this state will be linked by time-sure, safer roads.

    Also for inward investment, since we're the stop-off point for the yanks, Shannon will be less than an hour to Galway and an hour to Cork, which will be a much easier sell for the IDA in the States.

    An example of that sell is done here, where executives from a company that employs 2000 people in Galway visited the plant before Crusheen->Gort was officially opened.
    The Connacht Tribune wrote:
    Such was the sheer magnitude and importance of the visit, the executives from the medical devices company – one of the biggest employers in the West – were given a VIP escort along the unopened stretch of the new M18 Ennis to Gort motorway, after flying into Shannon Airport from the United States.


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    #271
    miles deas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭miles deas


    Regarding tremelo's point that N11 Oilgate to Rosslare project could be shelved completely. It makes the point that not cutting our cloth will affect areas differently and unfairly. Coca Cola, Celtic Linen and Danone are based there and unemployment is high. A more modest on-line mid sized road could fit. If Oilgate to Rosslare don't get shelved but get a 2+2 with finite resources the problem pushes on to some other forgotten back water that gets nothing. I'm not against roads but I am for reason. Industry makes jobs that offers people security obviously this is vital. But to keep on specifying roads from parameters derived in the economic boom will leave everybody shafted. Those who get a big new road through or near their home will be left scratching there heads as to why and then the real poor sods somewhere out in the sticks that get nothing at all while their children can watch Daddy quietly self destruct as he has no job. Parameters need to change from the boom the idea of continuing on the same projects without any cognisance to the economic collapse is somewhat perverse and surely cannot help society as a whole.

    Regarding the guy who quoted, my published facts again, that we have 2.5 more km's of motorway per head than in Britain. Your missing the point entirely. That presentation highlighted that motorways have grown by 430% from 2001-2009. Who do you think is going to pay for this? the PPP fairy? We pay for it. Astronomical growth in such a short time comes at a price and when the economy goes belly up it much harder to pay for.

    Regarding the thorn in my side, Mr MYOB. The point about the recent work that is ongoing with Prof. Edgar Morgenroth. We looked at the UK costs of Dual carriageway and WS2. We then used O'Cinneide's accident rates for the 2. After that you can show that with finite resources for a road network in dire need of upgrade more road is built and more lives saved using WS2 than DC before funds are exhausted. A little of the best is not necessarily as good as a lot more of something that is 2nd best or even 3rd. The tipping point where in fact DC offers more lives saved is a long way off so even if NRA costs are different it is unlikely they will change the overall conclusion. We used WS2 not because we wanted to push for that but because it was a useful surrogate for hopefully a better mid-sized road option.

    MYOB you maintain 2+2 has not been "made up" to motorway (notice my use of official terminology to please you) I have shown my source and the email quote from the NRA. So far pal you've shown nothing. Would you kindly provide evidence yourself to corroborate your contention, I have, an NRA quote you beat it or I win.

    Regarding the road types between UK and NRA once again you added up the grassy bits to win the point the difference in cross section is minimal the max. AADT for the UK design is 143% greater than the NRA's design. Hence I think we jump to early to motorway and for every other road type the same story. I see no value for money in the LOS of D stipulations. Those where aspirational targets that need revision with new world economics. Besides the EU are debating cutting motorway speeds as optimum car emissions occur at a lot lower than 100 kmph and this will have an effect that should also be factored in especially as even this years EPA CO2 forecasts accounting for economic downturn have us paying the EU piper for carbon credits come 2020. That forecast is the additional measures scenario that includes Smarter Travel policy being met and no increase in car traffic from 2009 to 2020. I would rather invest now in our own infrastructure and policy and meet the targets than come 2020 pay money to the EU to give to another nation and still find ourselves at a deficit on carbon emission measures to meet the 2030 target. Missing those targets and giving away money to end up with even further to go to meet the next set of targets is not a good value for money option.

    Regarding the safety. Which bit was I wrong on was it the safety BCR of motorway showing greater cost than benefit from the handbook of road safety measures edited by Rune Elvik? You know that books editor is world renowned and a thoroughly nice guy to speak to, I might add. I sent him some figures on a road local to me and he was unimpressed with the idea it needed the road design likely to be specified. But anyway Fred Wegman thought the book as "indispensable" an lots more nice comments when he reviewed it. You know Fred he was the one we asked to report on the safety of our roads in 2002 an official government report. Or was it the fact that EuroRAP considers 50% of our non-motorway roads are at the lowest 1 star rating when NI has only 5% and GB 2% 1 star roads. Or was it the official figures on rate of return on low cost safety improvements offering and annual rate of return of on average 502%. What are you talking about? I offered a good value for money alternative to get more funding. What is your beef on a change in emphasis to favour more investment on an existing policy measure that has shown good economic returns when a clear infrastructural deficit has been demonstrated. Even Fred Barry recognised that in the Dail Transport Committee on the 12th of Jan.:

    Fred%20Barry%20Transport%20Committee%2012-01-11.png

    Someone mentoined Grada and RSA investment offers highest rate of returns on safety. I agree Ireland won a PIN award last year with not a mention of motorways all praise for the above and lots of evidence education and enforcement offer best rate of returns on safety. But that is not to say that driver behaviour the major problem cannot be mitigated against in certain circumstances by road improvement it too has a roll as stated above. I think something good might be going on in the NRA that is moving forward but bugger me its only a vague notion if there is some thread about post IMF standards I cannot find it. If they already have it in the pipeline I'm rattling the NRA's cage for no good reason and wasting a lot of time to boot. So someone take pity and fill me in.

    Regarding prices of different road types can anyone point me to facts on that? It would be really useful. I know all that guff about depends on conditions but for a broad presentation on the mater of decisions for developing a mid-sized road it would be useful. I would like to start with reasonable assumptions on cost of SSC WS2 Type 1,2 & 3 and the motorways.

    Regarding value for money on buying land now a building later what about the ongoing maintenance cost of road. What about the fact the politicians will get crucified by the public buying land and leaving it fallow when any service that is cut or tax that is risen will be juxtapositioned with it. Or the ongoing ghost road situation gets worse. Not just by the environmental lobby but by any guy with a gripe. What is worse, say when you came to build but appraisal in the future says the best route option would actually be something else. Your then left with a choice stick to the original land and route option giving poor value to the state or sell back the land. The public uproar would be huge. Some of you guys do this for a living, I guess, what do you think?

    Sponge regarding the economic seppuku and wackamole comment. No one has all the answers not you or me but a bit of information sharing and dialogue and maybe some new ideas can be nothing but useful. I'm putting that slide together did you see the SSC slide I posted last, I'll add to that.

    I'm looking for a little help to put together as robust a case as I can to the NRA particularly re a mid-sized road option. I don't know for sure what they are already doing so I won't risk not pushing this forward but I'll do it in a formative way. Some help with relative costs of road types will be really useful it will save me having to change the figures on the fly when I meet them.


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