To Spay or not to Spay?

psycho-hope · 11-12-2010 3:11am

we had our dog neuterd not long after we got him, hes some kind of terrier x, he was a stray that adopted us:). he had no side effects other than sulking for a few days cause he couldnt go for his usual long walks

Chris_Heilong · 13-12-2010 12:40am

UPDATE!

one week on and the stray found my house and scratched at the door to let us know he was there, Here is a vid I took with my i-phone today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLfC4gyHPZ8

magentas · 13-12-2010 5:47am

this is a very interesting thread, I really enjoyed reading through it.

Discodog, you are so clued in and well-informed and no offence to other posters but when it somes to the issue of neutering people can be extremely biased!

we don't intend to neuter our dog (well he's still a puppy) we are very responsible with him, he is only ever off-lead outside when he is 100% under our supervision. Lots of our neighbours allow their dogs out to wander for most of the day and it's sad because I sometimes see them near the main road and god only knows what they get up to for the day.

our fella will never be given the opportunity yo roam, our garden is 100% secure and he will never be used for breeding as there is already a huge amount of unwanted dogs in Ireland. IMO as long as there are dogs in shelters there is no excuse for breeding unneccessarily

a neuter is actually castration, they take EVERYTHING, so unless there is any medical reason, in which case there would be no question about it obviously, we don't intend getting it done

spaying a female is another story entirely

ISDW · 13-12-2010 9:53am

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

I meant the male dogs owners should be respected, when they say no the dog should understand this and also stray dogs are becoming a very rare sight nowadays, I have seen maybe only one or two this year without their owners. Compared to the pat when if a bitch was in heat you would have 8 or 9 dogs outside you front door trying to hump the humans as they left.

Discodog, I know you have a very balanced view, out of all the people on the boards here you seem to know what your talking about and not take things at face value or take something as bible truth just because it is popular opinion.

The thing I said about 'cervical cancer ' was an extreme to illustrate what it sounds like for me to hear people saying for example "oh yeah, you just got a new bitch....so when is she getting spayed?" I will do more research on the risks involved, but really if bitches are in such bad genetic shape then maybe nature is trying to tell us something.

If what I am told here is to be believed then breeders must lose most of their bitches to disease. How can they keep doing what they do if most of their animals die?

I have an open mind and am just looking for answers.

Thats fantastic news, I'm sure all of the rescues and pounds that are absolutely full to the gills can back you up on that one.

I shall now go away and read wikipaedia again, which is where I only ever get my information from:rolleyes:

Tranceypoo · 13-12-2010 10:21am

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

stray dogs are becoming a very rare sight nowadays,
.

Where do you live? Not Ireland then?! I have picked up 4 stray dogs in the last 3 months alone and I only go home - work - shops, I'm not out wandering the streets looking for them!!

Chris_Heilong · 13-12-2010 4:34pm

ISDW wrote: »

Thats fantastic news, I'm sure all of the rescues and pounds that are absolutely full to the gills can back you up on that one.

I shall now go away and read wikipaedia again, which is where I only ever get my information from:rolleyes:

I noticed a small typo
also stray dogs are becoming a very rare sight nowadays, I have seen maybe only one or two this year without their owners. Compared to the past when if a bitch was in heat you would have 8 or 9 dogs outside your front door trying to hump the humans as they left.

different people different experiences, as I said Ive only come across 2 strays all year, maybe the pounds are collecting them all up or it could be the fact that a lot of people near where I live have Huskies, Akitas and Malamutes and they dont want them to run away or someone stealing them.

ISDW · 13-12-2010 4:58pm

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

I noticed a small typo
also stray dogs are becoming a very rare sight nowadays, I have seen maybe only one or two this year without their owners. Compared to the past when if a bitch was in heat you would have 8 or 9 dogs outside your front door trying to hump the humans as they left.

different people different experiences, as I said Ive only come across 2 strays all year, maybe the pounds are collecting them all up or it could be the fact that a lot of people near where I live have Huskies, Akitas and Malamutes and they dont want them to run away or someone stealing them.

If you only knew the number of stray huskies and malamutes that turn up in pounds every year here, thats how I get most of the dogs into the rescue.

I would actually say the number have gone up, as people are just dumping dogs because they apparently can't afford to look after them anymore.

Jinxi · 13-12-2010 8:40pm

magentas wrote: »

we don't intend to neuter our dog (well he's still a puppy) we are very responsible with him, he is only ever off-lead outside when he is 100% under our supervision.

a neuter is actually castration, they take EVERYTHING, so unless there is any medical reason, in which case there would be no question about it obviously, we don't intend getting it done

spaying a female is another story entirely

Why is it different. With female dogs it is a much more invasive opperation. If it is about reducing the amount of unwanted puppies then an unresponsible owner of an unneuter male can father alot more than an unresponsible owner of a female dog.

I accept the risks of cancer are higher for unneutered females. Is this what you were refering to.

I have a female puppy. We haven't decided on spaying yet. Its not something we will consider until she is fully grown at least.

Chris_Heilong · 15-12-2010 1:29am

ISDW wrote: »

If you only knew the number of stray huskies and malamutes that turn up in pounds every year here, thats how I get most of the dogs into the rescue.

I would actually say the number have gone up, as people are just dumping dogs because they apparently can't afford to look after them anymore.

Well I would guess it is that these type of dogs are know as escapists and can get out of poorly build enclosures, I know they should not be in enclosures but some of the people that would own a Husky, own them as a status symbol or because they think they look cool walking down the street with what looks like a wolf and could not be bothered looking after them correctly, but I dont think their owners would let them wander. Your really the expert when it comes to this, do you see owners letting these types wander?

lorebringer · 15-12-2010 12:29pm

magentas wrote: »

a neuter is actually castration, they take EVERYTHING...

...spaying a female is another story entirely

Everything? As in testicles and penis? Only the internal testicles are removed, the scrotum (usually with a few stitches) and penis are left intact. Castration is far less invasive that spaying because it doesn't enter the abdominal cavity and essentially removes something that is nearly totally external anyway. It is technically a partial castration (ie. only testicles) and not a full (testicles and penis).

Spaying is a full blown operation, with a large incision and significantly more risks. Usually, the full uterus (womb) is removed from just behind the cervix, including both horns, fallopian tubes and ovaries.

If you are not squeamish here are videos of both procedures:

Spay (the music is very annoying)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAcSD81T8zE&feature=related

Castration
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDvMdYx8k1M

magentas · 15-12-2010 1:26pm

spaying a female is another story entirely...

please get off your high horses and stop being so judgemental towards me, I thought this was the one forum where people could be honest without feeling intimidated.

what I meant by that statement ( and I think most of you know what I meant from my long post beforehand but I'll relay it here for you again)

there are far more pros to getting a female spayed and it's a no-brainer:

1. stops unwanted pregnancies therefore not adding to the huge overpopulation of dogs crisis that already exists in Ireland

2. the owner does not have to deal with all the stress of heats

3. the bitch does not have to deal with all the stress of heats

4. the are numerous health benefits to having a female spayed including
-prevention of mammary tumors
-no risk of complications associated with pregnancy such as false pregnancies, spotting and fading puppy syndrome (which I only recently heard about:()
-prevents tumors of the overies and uterous
-overall I think it increases her lifespan

I'm sure there's more I haven't though of and for all these reasons I will be getting my bitch spayed

It is my decision not to get my dog neutered, it is a well informed and researched and not taken lightly. He will never father a pup and yes, I CAN say that as he will never be given the opportunity. I see the pros and cons and it is my decision which I hope (at least some of you) you can respect

Shanao · 15-12-2010 4:59pm

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Well I would guess it is that these type of dogs are know as escapists and can get out of poorly build enclosures, I know they should not be in enclosures but some of the people that would own a Husky, own them as a status symbol or because they think they look cool walking down the street with what looks like a wolf and could not be bothered looking after them correctly, but I dont think their owners would let them wander. Your really the expert when it comes to this, do you see owners letting these types wander?

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there who think of huskies as status symbols and yes, they do let them wander. Two samoyed huskies arrived outside my door last June and I contacted as many people as possible to try and find their owner. I took them to the vet and lo and behold, found a microchip on one (though only one for some reason). The vet called the owner for me and all. A week later(!), the owner arrived, couldn't seem to remember how old the dogs were, then boasted about being a breeder. She then claimed, 'Oh they never go much further than the park' as if it was fine to leave them out in a park on their own!! I've seen them at least three times since running up and down the roads with no owner behind them.

I've got a male pup myself at the moment, at six months I'm going to have him health-checked, get his hips and eye scores done and hopefully start showing him. He comes from parents with an excellent pedigree so I may stud him once to get a son or daughter for myself.
Any health problems however, and he will be neutered. And after breeding (If i do stud him), he will be neutered. As responsible as I may think myself, I still dont trust a male when he gets a bitch's scent in his nose. They can scale any wall when they have to.
I have no problem with people not wanting to get it done, its my own choice. Females on the other hand, i would always strongly reccomend that they are spayed. Pyometra is absolutely horrible and I would never risk my own dog suffering it.

andreac · 15-12-2010 5:21pm

Shanao wrote: »

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there who think of huskies as status symbols and yes, they do let them wander. Two samoyed huskies arrived outside my door last June and I contacted as many people as possible to try and find their owner. I took them to the vet and lo and behold, found a microchip on one (though only one for some reason). The vet called the owner for me and all. A week later(!), the owner arrived, couldn't seem to remember how old the dogs were, then boasted about being a breeder. She then claimed, 'Oh they never go much further than the park' as if it was fine to leave them out in a park on their own!! I've seen them at least three times since running up and down the roads with no owner behind them.

I've got a male pup myself at the moment, at six months I'm going to have him health-checked, get his hips and eye scores done and hopefully start showing him. He comes from parents with an excellent pedigree so I may stud him once to get a son or daughter for myself.
Any health problems however, and he will be neutered. And after breeding (If i do stud him), he will be neutered. As responsible as I may think myself, I still dont trust a male when he gets a bitch's scent in his nose. They can scale any wall when they have to.
I have no problem with people not wanting to get it done, its my own choice. Females on the other hand, i would always strongly reccomend that they are spayed. Pyometra is absolutely horrible and I would never risk my own dog suffering it.

Just a little note on the hip scoring. You have to wait until they are at least 12 months before hip scoring them:)

lrushe · 15-12-2010 6:09pm

andreac wrote: »

Just a little note on the hip scoring. You have to wait until they are at least 12 months before hip scoring them:)

Can you get them done at 12 months? I thought it was only pulmonary testing you could get done that early if you wanted to start training your dog in a sport and you wanted to see if their joints were able for the stress. I thought they had to be 2 for a full hip score, could be wrong but that was my understanding.

Jinxi · 15-12-2010 6:46pm

Magentos,
Apart from the cancer risks all your points are the same for males and female dogs. Also neutering males eliminates the rish of testicular cancer.

ISDW · 15-12-2010 9:11pm

lrushe wrote: »

Can you get them done at 12 months? I thought it was only pulmonary testing you could get done that early if you wanted to start training your dog in a sport and you wanted to see if their joints were able for the stress. I thought they had to be 2 for a full hip score, could be wrong but that was my understanding.

I had two of my sibes hipscored just after they turned one. I actually think it was too early, but you live and learn.

andreac · 15-12-2010 9:17pm

lrushe wrote: »

Can you get them done at 12 months? I thought it was only pulmonary testing you could get done that early if you wanted to start training your dog in a sport and you wanted to see if their joints were able for the stress. I thought they had to be 2 for a full hip score, could be wrong but that was my understanding.

You can but think its recommended to leave it a little longer. I got my fella done when he was over 2 and ill def get my female done earlier this time, probably around 18 months. I just didnt have the money to do my fella any sooner.

Shanao · 16-12-2010 12:33am

Course, i didn't even think about that as i was writing my post.

Will prob wait until he's two, he's from quite large parents and I want to make sure he's fully grown.

magentas · 17-12-2010 1:31am

Jinxi wrote: »

Magentos,
Apart from the cancer risks all your points are the same for males and female dogs. Also neutering males eliminates the rish of testicular cancer.

1. stops unwanted pregnancies therefore not adding to the huge overpopulation of dogs crisis that already exists in Ireland
*my dog cannot get pregnant:D and will not have the opportunity to father any pups

2. the owner does not have to deal with all the stress of heats
*my dog will not have heats therefore I will not have to deal with the stress of heats

3. the bitch does not have to deal with all the stress of heats
*my dog will not have heats

4. the are numerous health benefits to having a female spayed including
-prevention of mammary tumors
-no risk of complications associated with pregnancy such as false pregnancies, spotting and fading puppy syndrome (which I only recently heard about

)
-prevents tumors of the overies and uterous
-overall I think it increases her lifespan
*all of these health benefits apply to females ONLY so irrelevant to my dog

I've started a thread on this issue so won't hijack this thread anymore, sorry OP

Shanao · 17-12-2010 1:42am

Medical:
No Testicular Tumors
No passing on of a hamful genetic trait (Hip dysplasia etc)
Decreases risk of Hernias
Decreased risk of Perianal Tumors
Decreased problems with Prostate

Behavioural Advantages:
Decreased Aggression
Decreased Roaming
Less marking by urination

Less stress on the dog as well, for example, if the dog is in the garden and a bitch in heat trots past, then the male can become extremely distressed trying to escape to mate with her.

That's what I can think of off the top of my head in the argument for neutering male dogs.

magentas · 17-12-2010 2:48am

Shanao wrote: »

Medical:
No Testicular Tumors
No passing on of a hamful genetic trait (Hip dysplasia etc)
Decreases risk of Hernias
Decreased risk of Perianal Tumors
Decreased problems with Prostate

Behavioural Advantages:
Decreased Aggression
Decreased Roaming
Less marking by urination

Less stress on the dog as well, for example, if the dog is in the garden and a bitch in heat trots past, then the male can become extremely distressed trying to escape to mate with her.

That's what I can think of off the top of my head in the argument for neutering male dogs.

the OP asked about spaying

Jinxi · 17-12-2010 7:56am

The OP talked about spaying but you have been offering reasons why spaying is the perfered option, while defending your decision not to neuter your dog.
Personally I think you have a right to choose what you see is best for your dog.
However, in the interest of being fair, I don't think its fair to put the burden of managing unwanted puppies on bitch owners alone. As I already pointed out, in the numbers game, it makes more sense to neuter males.

Your argument that if you can control where your unfixed dog is at all times then you are being responsible is fine....IF you hold up your end of the bargin and have him fully supervised and restrained for the next 15 years.

As a previous poster said, your dog doesn't have to experience heat to experience the stress that goes with it.

Shanao · 17-12-2010 6:19pm

magentas wrote: »

the OP asked about spaying

Yes, but you were talking about neutering so I figured i would reply to it. The reasons behind spaying had already been mentioned by other posters, I just wanted to add the reasons for neutering. I'm sorry if my post seemed irrelevant

magentas · 18-12-2010 12:53am

Jinxi wrote: »

The OP talked about spaying but you have been offering reasons why spaying is the perfered option, while defending your decision not to neuter your dog.
Personally I think you have a right to choose what you see is best for your dog.
However, in the interest of being fair, I don't think its fair to put the burden of managing unwanted puppies on bitch owners alone. As I already pointed out, in the numbers game, it makes more sense to neuter males.

Your argument that if you can control where your unfixed dog is at all times then you are being responsible is fine....IF you hold up your end of the bargin and have him fully supervised and restrained for the next 15 years.

As a previous poster said, your dog doesn't have to experience heat to experience the stress that goes with it.

I ALWAYS know where my dog is and what he's up to, he is never out of my sight and if more people accepted that it IS their responsibility to know where their dogs are and keep them supervised at all times, then we wouldn't have the issue of wandering dogs (not to mention the safety issues that goes with wandering dogs...I regularly find my neighbours dogs out near the road:mad:).

I don't like being made to sound irresponsible when I know I'm not.

I am not expecting the owners of bitches to be solely responsible and accept the "burden of managing unwanted puppies", I will do my share by ensuring my dog cannot access a bitch in heat, however they need to be responsible for their own dog and if they don't get her spayed, then they should not allow her to wander when in heat!

I completely understand why people get their dogs neutered and I completely respect that

"Personally I think you have a right to choose what you see is best for your dog."
I couldn't agree more:)

magentas · 18-12-2010 1:06am

Shanao wrote: »

Yes, but you were talking about neutering so I figured i would reply to it. The reasons behind spaying had already been mentioned by other posters, I just wanted to add the reasons for neutering. I'm sorry if my post seemed irrelevant

sorry shanao, I should have put an emotive with that!:p

I started a new thread on spaying versus neutering so as not to hi-jack the OPs thread anymore but if people respond to my comments here I will reply to them. I am interested in the actual differences betweena neuter and a spay and the possible negative side effects of such, which nobody ever seems to want to speak of.

Any decision should be well informed and I wouldn't just get him neutered because it's taboo not to, I want to get ALL the facts, not just the pros!

Your post was not irrelevant, I find I always learn something new in this forum and enjoy listening to peoples opinions and often PM certain people here if I have a query in relation to my dog, everyone is very helpful and for the most part non-judgemental!

"Decreases risk of Hernias
Decreased risk of Perianal Tumors"

I wasn't aware of this and will look into it, thanks:)

ShaShaBear · 18-12-2010 10:01pm

All I will say is:
Have you ever tried to get a 15kilo dog off a bitch when she's on a lead?

magentas · 21-12-2010 2:38am

ShaShaBear wrote: »

All I will say is:
Have you ever tried to get a 15kilo dog off a bitch when she's on a lead?

no. have you? BTW I have a rescue dog do maybe I shouldn't bring the dogs outside at all incase they bite someone...

Jinxi · 21-12-2010 6:28pm

That is a silly analogy. If your dog was proned to biting then you would probably muzzle them before bringing them out.
If your dog has balls then they will want to mate with a bitch in heat.
If the dog is 15kg and agressive/hyped up then they are a danger to the bitch, the bitches owner, and the person who have them on a leash.

I have decided not to spay my bitch. Depending on how bad the heat experience is we may not do it until she is 2, if ever.

However, if I am walking her when she is in heat, I have no problem defending her against robust males. Even if this incudes a few well placed kicks. I choose not to spay, they choose not to neuter. Everyone is accepting the responsibility.

Discodog · 21-12-2010 6:38pm

Jinxi wrote: »

However, if I am walking her when she is in heat, I have no problem defending her against robust males. Even if this incudes a few well placed kicks. I choose not to spay, they choose not to neuter. Everyone is accepting the responsibility.

Why don't you kick the owners instead of the dogs ?. It's cruel to bring her out whilst in heat & then kick dogs for doing what comes naturally.

Jinxi · 21-12-2010 8:09pm

Because while I run after the owners to kick them my dog gets pregnant:rolleyes:

They would come next.

To Spay or not to Spay?

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