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To Spay or not to Spay?

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24

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    #32
    lrushe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭lrushe


    boomerang wrote: »
    Our family dog growing up wasn't neutered and did develop testicular cancer when he got older - I remember one of his testicles being hugely enlarged and he had to be neutered, which at his advanced age carried a far greater risk of anaesthetic death.

    There will always be an exception to the rule but from what I can see from research I have found there is less than a 1% chance of an intact male dog developing testicular cancer. The argument for neutering males as always been from a population control point of view from what I can see.


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    #33
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,852 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Castration does eliminate testicular cancer for obvious reasons but there is some evidence to suggest that it increases the likelihood of prostate cancer. If you check you dogs regularly ie gently feel his balls, with the curtains closed :o , you will detect a testicular tumour & caught early it is easy to treat. You have virtually no chance of spotting prostate cancer until it's way too late.

    A lot of cancers can be caught early just by giving your dog a physical run over with your hands including under the arms, ears etc. If you do it once a week it is easy to spot something new. No matter how inoffensive it seems get it checked by a Vet.


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    #34
    Bubs99
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭Bubs99


    Everybody has a right to their own opinion. Just because an owner doesn't spay their pet, it doesn't mean they're a bad owner.

    But...in my opinion, it is for the best for many reasons. I have worked in a vets for over a year and I have had female dogs as pets. The recovery time is very fast and as long as they are taken care of and given their anti-biotics and painkillers and kept warm and comfortable, they'll be fine.

    Spaying is a definate in my opinion as it prevents many types of cancer and other illnesses and hassle from dogs during heat season.
    One of the main reasons I think spaying is a must is, there is way, way too many dogs in Ireland at the moment that nobody wants. We put down up to 10,000 dogs a year! Have some common sense people, please...!!!


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    #35
    lrushe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭lrushe


    Discodog wrote: »
    If you check you dogs regularly ie gently feel his balls, with the curtains closed :o , you will detect a testicular tumour & caught early it is easy to treat. You have virtually no chance of spotting prostate cancer until it's way too late.

    This is the same agrument I use when people tell me about the increased risk of mammary cancer in intact female dogs and yes as I've said there is about a 2% risk of mammary cancer with every season a bitch has but there is also an increased risk of bone cancer in dogs spayed early. Now, gun to my head and I had to choose I'd rather my female dog got mammary cancer than bone cancer, mammary cancer is easier to detect by rubbing / grooming your dog regularly and has a higher survival rate. Bone cancer isn't usually discovered until it is almost too late and prognosis isn't great.


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    #36
    lrushe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭lrushe


    Bubs99 wrote: »
    Everybody has a right to their own opinion. Just because an owner doesn't spay their pet, it doesn't mean they're a bad owner.

    But...in my opinion, it is for the best for many reasons. I have worked in a vets for over a year and I have had female dogs as pets. The recovery time is very fast and as long as they are taken care of and given their anti-biotics and painkillers and kept warm and comfortable, they'll be fine.

    Spaying is a definate in my opinion as it prevents many types of cancer and other illnesses and hassle from dogs during heat season.
    One of the main reasons I think spaying is a must is, there is way, way too many dogs in Ireland at the moment that nobody wants. We put down up to 10,000 dogs a year! Have some common sense people, please...!!!

    Nobody said not to spay their female dog, the debate is more about when to spay them.


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    #37
    Cherry Blossom
    Registered Users Posts: 6,941 ✭✭✭Cherry Blossom


    lrushe wrote: »
    Nobody said not to spay their female dog, the debate is more about when to spay them.

    I think the only answer to this one is for individual owners to do all their reseach and take the breed/size etc and needs of the individual dog and of course the circumstances (how easy is it to keep the bitch secure) into consideration. My origional plan was to spay my Westie at 10 months and she'd be pretty much fully grown at that stage with smaller dogs maturing earlier. However she is now booked in to be done on Tuesday (a day shy of 6 months) as she went into heat at 18weeks old and the vet suspects a hormone imbalance (also taking other factors into consideration). This would mean she is likely to have irregular heat patterns and to go into heat frequently as well as other complications from a hormone imbalance and be at a much higher risk to hormone related cancers so it seemed the only reasonable option in her case. If I had a male Westie I'd probably have waited till 18 months.


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    #38
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,852 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    lrushe wrote: »
    There will always be an exception to the rule but from what I can see from research I have found there is less than a 1% chance of an intact male dog developing testicular cancer. The argument for neutering males as always been from a population control point of view from what I can see.

    That 1% is interesting as many Veterinary websites refer to testicular cancer as being "common". One did say that it was "unknown in neutered dogs" :confused: I do wonder if research results that go against the grain are suppressed or ignored.

    The Vets are in a difficult PR position. We rightly encourage neutering. Big companies join in with Spay weeks etc. It wouldn't be wise to start promoting the idea that neutering isn't necessary.


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    #39
    lrushe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭lrushe


    Discodog wrote: »
    I do wonder if research results that go against the grain are suppressed or ignored.QUOTE]

    This was one of the arguments I put forward on the previous thread where I discussed this. Science and medicine can often be unwilling to accept challenging ideas to the norm or accepted practices.
    At one time scientists believed the earth was flat and you'd fall of the edge and those who contested this were ridiculed. Indeed until recent times science believed the atom was the smallest existing particle and people would have scoffed at anyone suggesting differently, then it was split.
    I have read enough to be convinced that more research needs to be done on early s/neutering and am not convinced enough on it to preform it on my own pets.
    It could also be argued that the veterinary community have alot of revenue to lose if even male neutering become obsolete.


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    #40
    coolhandspan
    Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭coolhandspan


    castration apears to be on the decline among irish owners. most working dogs are not spayed anymore, can kill their drive/work ethic


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    #41
    lrushe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭lrushe


    coolhandspan wrote: »
    most working dogs are not spayed anymore, can kill their drive/work ethic

    I don't know about that I know some excellent agility and schutzhund dogs who have been spayed.


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    #42
    coolhandspan
    Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭coolhandspan


    Hold on agree 100 per cent on spaying bitches , talking about castration of strong males in my comment, your opinion ??


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    #43
    lrushe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭lrushe


    I'm not 100% convinced on neutering males if they can be kept secure.
    If I were to neuter a male (especially a working dog) it would be between 18 months to 2 years by that stage I would think drive would already be established if it were to exist at all in particular dog, just my opinion.


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    #44
    coolhandspan
    Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭coolhandspan


    yeah sensible comment irushe, i have 3 and a half year old dog, will not neutur him now, may breed off him next year. i agree with you re female dogs.
    castration appears to be unproven now, i would recommend if dog showed agression, but otherwise i would leave good enough alone


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    #45
    lrushe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭lrushe


    coolhandspan wrote: »
    yeah sensible comment irushe, i have 3 and a half year old dog, will not neutur him now, may breed off him next year. i agree with you re female dogs.
    castration appears to be unproven now, i would recommend if dog showed agression, but otherwise i would leave good enough alone

    Whether or not to neuter your dog will always be at the discretion of the owner, however just because you keep your dog intact doesn't mean he should be bred from. That call can only be made if you work / show your dog (depending on the breed) to make sure he is excellent example of his breed, also he should be health tested and cleared of any health problems associated with that particular breed. It's the responsible thing to do.
    Even in the cases of aggression neutering isn't a magic cure, if the agression has become habit or is part of the dogs personality neutering will have little to no effect on aggression.


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    #46
    coolhandspan
    Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭coolhandspan


    AGREE, and breeding should not be undertaken without veterinary opinion, hip ratios etc...............


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    #47
    Rabbitandcavy
    Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭Rabbitandcavy


    I'd spay her, you will regret not doing it when she ir frustrated that she can't be walked because she is in heat. If you live somewhere fairly busy, you'll have males fighting and pissing again the door. When a male wants to get to a bitch, they'd charge past you once you open the door! The chances are fairly high that she'll get caught.


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    #48
    Jinxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 429 ✭✭Jinxi


    Rabbitandcavy wrote: »
    I'd spay her, you will regret not doing it when she ir frustrated that she can't be walked because she is in heat. If you live somewhere fairly busy, you'll have males fighting and pissing again the door. When a male wants to get to a bitch, they'd charge past you once you open the door! The chances are fairly high that she'll get caught.

    Ok now I'm a bit terrified! My wee girl is almost 7 months now and we decided to wait until after her first heat to get her spayed. With all the arguments that have already been put forward here, I think that she needs to be fully grown before removing hormones that have an effect on her development.
    I have the ability to keep her safe while she is on heat but I am afraid about how agressive males will get. I intend to walk her off peak times, on leash with bitch spray.


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    #49
    ISDW
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭ISDW


    coolhandspan wrote: »
    castration apears to be on the decline among irish owners. most working dogs are not spayed anymore, can kill their drive/work ethic

    I work my huskies. My lead dog Diesel was neutered when he was just over a year old, he was hip scored and got a very bad score, so I got him done soon after. He is an amazing working dog, has won a weight pulling competition, he would have carried on pulling, but I decided he had done enough. He will run and run for me, without his testicles:D


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    #50
    primavera85
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭primavera85


    i used to be pro-spay. bearing in mind i keep mostly working dogs and only breed to continue my own bloodline, i spayed a working sheepdog bitch there a few weeks ago;- 4yr old very healthy, had a litter 5mths previously from which i kept her daughter. the vet is supposed to do internal stitches as well as external ones. let the bitch out for a few minutes in the morning a few days later, she must have chewed a few of her external stitches and her guts were on the floor, she'd tore them in her panic. waste of a brilliant young bitch, had to PTS, didnt know when i booked her in that she was being done by a newly qualified young vet. :mad: wont be neutering her daughter in a hurry, rather listen to my male terrier howl every time shes in season and locked in her run


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    #51
    lrushe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭lrushe


    Jinxi wrote: »
    I have the ability to keep her safe while she is on heat but I am afraid about how agressive males will get. I intend to walk her off peak times, on leash with bitch spray.

    Maybe also try driving her to a location to walk her so that male dogs won't have a trail to follow back to your house.
    If it is causing you real stress and you are fearing for your dogs safety then I would advise spaying. I can keep my bitches intact until 18 - 24 months but like I said it is up to each owners set of circumstance, if you feel it is not right for you you shouldn't feel guilty if you need to spay abit earlier.


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    #52
    lorebringer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,712 ✭✭✭lorebringer


    primavera85 wrote: »
    i used to be pro-spay. bearing in mind i keep mostly working dogs and only breed to continue my own bloodline, i spayed a working sheepdog bitch there a few weeks ago;- 4yr old very healthy, had a litter 5mths previously from which i kept her daughter. the vet is supposed to do internal stitches as well as external ones. let the bitch out for a few minutes in the morning a few days later, she must have chewed a few of her external stitches and her guts were on the floor, she'd tore them in her panic. waste of a brilliant young bitch, had to PTS, didnt know when i booked her in that she was being done by a newly qualified young vet. :mad: wont be neutering her daughter in a hurry, rather listen to my male terrier howl every time shes in season and locked in her run

    Jesus Christ, that's awful. What a terrible experience for everyone involved. Did you inform the vet? Must have been very shoddy work if she burst after a few days. Within the first day I would be less surprised, but after some healing - good god. Was she at the stitches non stop? Buster collar used?


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    #53
    primavera85
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭primavera85


    lorebringer wrote: »
    Jesus Christ, that's awful. What a terrible experience for everyone involved. Did you inform the vet? Must have been very shoddy work if she burst after a few days. Within the first day I would be less surprised, but after some healing - good god. Was she at the stitches non stop? Buster collar used?

    nope, he didnt supply me with a collar but i had one at home that i used, she wasnt at the stitches much either, she was more concerned about the collar.
    the same vet who operated was the one who put her down, tryed to charge me for putting her down as well, i was in shock at the time, went into automatic, wrapped up her organs in a clean wet towel and carried her into car and straight to vets ringing them en-route, knew even as i was ringing the vets that there was too much damage and that she was a pts job.
    i had to tell the vet to hurry up and get the injection... think he was in shock as well... he was waffleing to me about the damage etc... i could see it clearly enough myself. i was supposed to go back and pay 20euro for putting my bitch down... needless to say i wont be paying him for that. hes lucky im not sueing him, the bitch (holly) was a much loved pet as well as a valuable worker, ive also lost out on work as im without a sheepdog now, it will be a while before her daughter is ready to start work and training is expensive.


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    #54
    lorebringer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,712 ✭✭✭lorebringer


    primavera85 wrote: »
    nope, he didnt supply me with a collar but i had one at home that i used, she wasnt at the stitches much either, she was more concerned about the collar.
    the same vet who operated was the one who put her down, tryed to charge me for putting her down as well, i was in shock at the time, went into automatic, wrapped up her organs in a clean wet towel and carried her into car and straight to vets ringing them en-route, knew even as i was ringing the vets that there was too much damage and that she was a pts job.
    i had to tell the vet to hurry up and get the injection... think he was in shock as well... he was waffleing to me about the damage etc... i could see it clearly enough myself. i was supposed to go back and pay 20euro for putting my bitch down... needless to say i wont be paying him for that. hes lucky im not sueing him, the bitch (holly) was a much loved pet as well as a valuable worker, ive also lost out on work as im without a sheepdog now, it will be a while before her daughter is ready to start work and training is expensive.

    So sorry to hear that. You must still be shocked by the whole thing.

    EDIT: OP, sorry so off topic!


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    #55
    lrushe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭lrushe


    primavera85 so sorry to hear about your poor dog, it's never easy to lose a family pet let alone lose one under such horrific circumstances. RIP Holly x


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    #56
    Chris_Heilong
    Registered Users Posts: 4,973 ✭✭✭Chris_Heilong


    In wolf packs only the alpha male and female are allowed mate and have pups, all the other wolves have to respect this and keep control of them selves, why ask any thing less from our dogs, They have a strong sex drive but can be controlled.

    Discodog; I rescued a Samoyed female that had been recently spayed, she had urinary incontinence caused from the spay, and urinated all over the house which caused my male to start marking the spots he could smell urine in, I gave her 2 hour walks everyday but for some reason she just kept on barking at nothing, The last owner said she never had these problems before the spay, so maybe it was this experience that made me feel spay is not good. I contacted the rescue and we re-homed her in a home with a male Samoyed.

    My male is neutered now and is still happy go lucky so I dont think it does change their personalities but also hate the stigma attached to people who choose not to neuter, there has to be a balanced view on this issue.


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    #57
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,852 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Chris_Heilong wrote: »
    all the other wolves have to respect this and keep control of them selves, why ask any thing less from our dogs, They have a strong sex drive but can be controlled.

    Discodog; I rescued a Samoyed female that had been recently spayed, she had urinary incontinence caused from the spay,

    My male is neutered now and is still happy go lucky so I dont think it does change their personalities but also hate the stigma attached to people who choose not to neuter, there has to be a balanced view on this issue.

    Are you seriously suggesting that domesticated dogs will exercise self control ?.

    Complications from a spay are possible but rare. The risk is offset by the benefits of spaying. There are genuine health benefits in spaying but less with castration.

    I have a very balanced view. If dogs were kept properly there would be less need for neutering. I have owned entire females in the UK & it is not a problem because there are not loads of strays baying at the door.

    My male pup will not be neutered unless there is a medical issue but I can guarantee that he will never be allowed to roam & father offspring.

    In Ireland we have to promote neutering because we have a horrendous problem. For every responsible owner there are many who are irresponsible & they will not keep their dogs under control resulting in a huge surplus of unwanted dogs.


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    #58
    Tranceypoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Tranceypoo


    Chris_Heilong wrote: »
    Hopefully sometime in the future the same ideas can be applied to human females, I mean why risk your daughter getting cervical cancer or something else because she was not spayed, I would say just Let the dog remain in its natural form unless you have a specific reason for spaying her, cancer in dogs is just as common as in humans so bear that in mind with what ever course of action you choose to take.


    Er, dogs aren't people. People have a choice about reproducing or not. And female dogs can't get certain cancers if they've been spayed.

    What depresses me most is the casual comments in some posts 'I might breed from him/her at a later stage', so casually, like I might take him/her to the park later


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    #59
    Chris_Heilong
    Registered Users Posts: 4,973 ✭✭✭Chris_Heilong


    I meant the male dogs owners should be respected, when they say no the dog should understand this and also stray dogs are becoming a very rare sight nowadays, I have seen maybe only one or two this year without their owners. Compared to the pat when if a bitch was in heat you would have 8 or 9 dogs outside you front door trying to hump the humans as they left.

    Discodog, I know you have a very balanced view, out of all the people on the boards here you seem to know what your talking about and not take things at face value or take something as bible truth just because it is popular opinion.

    The thing I said about 'cervical cancer ' was an extreme to illustrate what it sounds like for me to hear people saying for example "oh yeah, you just got a new bitch....so when is she getting spayed?" I will do more research on the risks involved, but really if bitches are in such bad genetic shape then maybe nature is trying to tell us something.

    If what I am told here is to be believed then breeders must lose most of their bitches to disease. How can they keep doing what they do if most of their animals die?

    I have an open mind and am just looking for answers.


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    #60
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,852 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Chris_Heilong wrote: »
    stray dogs are becoming a very rare sight nowadays, I have seen maybe only one or two this year without their owners.

    6500 strays were killed in the Pounds last year. I don't know where you are but I see loads of them. I have three ex strays asleep here. Before one of my girls was neutered I would have 2 or 3 dogs hanging around. None were strays in that they have owners but the kind of owners who don't know or care where their dogs are.


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    #61
    Chris_Heilong
    Registered Users Posts: 4,973 ✭✭✭Chris_Heilong


    I live in Raheny, and yeah I have only seen two stray(owners not around) dogs all year. Here is a vid of one of the strays I found about a week ago.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5c2U_1Tg0s


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