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Fianna Fail's actions are tantamount to murder

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    #32
    Hugo Drax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 358 ✭✭Hugo Drax


    southsiderosie wrote: »
    Irish voters have continually supported FF, even though it seems pretty obvious that they have been absolutely rotten on banking and economic regulation since the 1970s. Everyone was fat and happy from 1997-2007, and willing to turn a blind eye, even if anyone with half a brain could see where the real estate market was heading. And I wouldn't be surprised if FF were to pull something off in 2012, especially if there is an economic recovery - that election is a looooong ways away.

    Exactly, I'll be voting for them again.

    Who else is there?


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    #33
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    Hugo Drax wrote: »
    Exactly, I'll be voting for them again.

    Who else is there?

    No way


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    #34
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Hugo Drax wrote: »
    Exactly, I'll be voting for them again.

    Who else is there?

    I think we'll see a lot of that kind of apathy. Everyone hates FF but noone like the other partys enough to vote for them. I'm thinking along the same lines.

    I still don't see why the thread title mentions murder. Very misleading.


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    #35
    The Volt
    Registered Users Posts: 7,957 ✭✭✭The Volt


    k_mac wrote: »
    I think we'll see a lot of that kind of apathy. Everyone hates FF but noone like the other partys enough to vote for them. I'm thinking along the same lines.

    I still don't see why the thread title mentions murder. Very misleading.
    Because the options that they chose to pursue rather than looking after the weak, the poor and needy have had such a negative impact on society and this country as a whole. 80,000 people without a home, nearly 500,000 people unemployed. No good will towards the people of this country, only for their buddies.


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    #36
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Hugo Drax wrote: »
    Exactly, I'll be voting for them again.

    Who else is there?

    Lots of far-from-ideal but far-less-corrupt-and-incompetent people.


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    #37
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Voltwad wrote: »
    Because the options that they chose to pursue rather than looking after the weak, the poor and needy have had such a negative impact on society and this country as a whole.
    Are you suggesting that even more public money should have been spent on social welfare to protect "the vulnerable"?
    Voltwad wrote: »
    80,000 people without a home...
    Sorry, what now? There are 80,000 homeless people in Ireland?


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    #38
    The Volt
    Registered Users Posts: 7,957 ✭✭✭The Volt


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Are you suggesting that even more public money should have been spent on social welfare to protect "the vulnerable"?
    Sorry, what now? There are 80,000 homeless people in Ireland?

    I meant 80,000 on the housing list sorry. I would have preferred a million and one things to the pointless building of endless apartments, and hotels.


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    #39
    derfderf
    Registered Users Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭derfderf


    There's one thing i've always wondered peoples opinion on. Do people think any of the other parties would have handled things that much differently if they'd been in power through the boom times? How much better would FG/Labour have prepared us for the market crash and would the financial regulator actually have done their job properly on their watch?


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    #40
    rightwingdub
    Registered Users Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    southsiderosie wrote: »
    Irish voters have continually supported FF, even though it seems pretty obvious that they have been absolutely rotten on banking and economic regulation since the 1970s. Everyone was fat and happy from 1997-2007, and willing to turn a blind eye, even if anyone with half a brain could see where the real estate market was heading. And I wouldn't be surprised if FF were to pull something off in 2012, especially if there is an economic recovery - that election is a looooong ways away.


    FF won't get back into government after the next election, not a snowballs chance in hell although I wouldn't be surprised if they had the highest number of votes and seats for them to get back into government in 2017, your right there a lot of Irish people lost the plot as regards property from 1995-2007, maybe one thing will change is our cultural love affair with property and maybe renting might become fashionable amongst young middle class couples.

    The problem is Kenny is clueless and probably just as bad as Cowen, how FG haven't ditched him yet as leader is beyond me, as for Gilmore he needs a severe injection of electric shock therapy after all the ppulist rubbish he's come out with in the last couple of years, he is utterly clueless as regards taxation and the Labour party are seen as the party of the public sector trade unions by most private sector workers.


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    #41
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    rightwingdub wrote: »
    FF won't get back into government after the next election, not a snowballs chance in hell although I wouldn't be surprised if they had the highest number of votes and seats for them to get back into government in 2017, your right there a lot of Irish people lost the plot as regards property from 1995-2007, maybe one thing will change is our cultural love affair with property and maybe renting might become fashionable amongst young middle class couples.

    The problem is Kenny is clueless and probably just as bad as Cowen, how FG haven't ditched him yet as leader is beyond me, as for Gilmore he needs a severe injection of electric shock therapy after all the ppulist rubbish he's come out with in the last couple of years, he is utterly clueless as regards taxation and the Labour party are seen as the party of the public sector trade unions by most private sector workers.

    Well based on your post and a few others above, voters have a choice of the devil they do know (FF), the devil they kind of know and don't really like (FG) and Satan and his minions (Labour and unions...or maybe that is vice-versa?).

    Bad metaphors aside, I actually think Labour would be in a better position to keep the unions under control than FG or FF. In most countries, unions are less likely to strike and be intransigent when there is a leftist party in government (the unions are actually taking a lot of heat for this in Spain - they won't strike against the socialist government).

    Ultimately, given the numbers involved, I guess you'd have to ask if you are worse off with a party in hock to unions, or a party in hock to bankers. Or FG (still can't figure out what they are all about).


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    #42
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    Exactly, just because people voted for them (not me btw), it does not absolve them of the responsibility to govern in a responsible way. Which of course they did not do, they encouraged irresponsible lending and development through light touch regulation and lax planning, they gave away billions in benchmarking agreements which we now cannot pay for, they've done nothing about waste in government and public services and they've mortaged the nations future to this doomed nama enterprise and zombie banks like Anglo.

    Being voted in does not mean that they should be able to act like chancers, conmen and gombeens and if they have (and we know that they have) they should be run out of power.

    If people are unhappy with their government, they vote them out. If people are ignorant about their government, then everyone suffers. Its a sad fact but true. Blame the people who voted in the government. I'm sick of this generation thinking they have some kind of entitlement to a great government. Democracy has responsibilities as well as rights.


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    #43
    The Volt
    Registered Users Posts: 7,957 ✭✭✭The Volt


    Denerick wrote: »
    If people are unhappy with their government, they vote them out. If people are ignorant about their government, then everyone suffers. Its a sad fact but true. Blame the people who voted in the government. I'm sick of this generation thinking they have some kind of entitlement to a great government. Democracy has responsibilities as well as rights.
    Well said.


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    #44
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    derfderf wrote: »
    There's one thing i've always wondered peoples opinion on. Do people think any of the other parties would have handled things that much differently if they'd been in power through the boom times? How much better would FG/Labour have prepared us for the market crash and would the financial regulator actually have done their job properly on their watch?

    People generally prefer to overlook that. Having a ready made bogeyman gives everyone the beautiful luxury of not having to engage in thought.


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    #45
    The Volt
    Registered Users Posts: 7,957 ✭✭✭The Volt


    Denerick wrote: »
    People generally prefer to overlook that. Having a ready made bogeyman gives everyone the beautiful luxury of not having to engage in thought.
    People also seem to be constantly willing to forgive FF their wrong do-ings due to their cute whoreism and the fact that they gave the pensioners the bus passes.


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    #46
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    Voltwad wrote: »
    People also seem to be constantly willing to forgive FF their wrong do-ings due to their cute whoreism and the fact that they gave the pensioners the bus passes.

    I don't 'forgive' FF, I think their handling of the economy wasn't good, but I also recognise that they merely reflected the will of the people and the political establishment. If FG were elected at the last election, I can guarantee you the economic crash would have hit us just as bad, so blaming FF for the cancer in our political culture is simply lazy.


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    #47
    The Volt
    Registered Users Posts: 7,957 ✭✭✭The Volt


    Denerick wrote: »
    I don't 'forgive' FF, I think their handling of the economy wasn't good, but I also recognise that they merely reflected the will of the people and the political establishment. If FG were elected at the last election, I can guarantee you the economic crash would have hit us just as bad, so blaming FF for the cancer in our political culture is simply lazy.
    FF have been in power in this country for 90% of the history of the state so the type of political system, opportunism, chicanery, cynicism and cronie-ism which now exists could never have blossomed without their active participation. In those circumstances there is absolutely no evidence to support claims that it would not have made any difference if somebody else was in power. One thing that is crystal clear is that nobody could have been any worse.


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    #48
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    Voltwad wrote: »
    FF have been in power in this country for 90% of the history of the state so the type of political system, opportunism, chicanery, cynicism and cronie-ism which now exists could never have blossomed without their active participation. In those circumstances there is absolutely no evidence to support claims that it would not have made any difference if somebody else was in power. One thing that is crystal clear is that nobody could have been any worse.

    You seem to be blaming FF for creating a political culture the rest of the political world in this country, and the voters followed. Personally, I think that's dishonest and that the people you should be angry with is your local FF election volunteer for partaking in such an Orwellian scheme.


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    #49
    The Volt
    Registered Users Posts: 7,957 ✭✭✭The Volt


    Denerick wrote: »
    You seem to be blaming FF for creating a political culture the rest of the political world in this country, and the voters followed. Personally, I think that's dishonest and that the people you should be angry with is your local FF election volunteer for partaking in such an Orwellian scheme.
    Yes, I am blaming them. They're still Fianna Fail. That's not being dishonest, that's absolute fact. They've had the time to change things and they haven't.


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    #50
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    Voltwad wrote: »
    Yes, I am blaming them. They're still Fianna Fail. That's not being dishonest, that's absolute fact. They've had the time to change things and they haven't.

    But who is to blame for that? If voters continuously vote in the same old party all the time, how can they expect the party to change? You're blaming a political party for, in essence, doing what they are contracted to do (Win elections) I'm telling you that you should be blaming the voters if you think FF is really such an Orwellian organisation.


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    #51
    The Volt
    Registered Users Posts: 7,957 ✭✭✭The Volt


    I can accept that the voters have made bad choices but that doesn't excuse the actions of the people who were elected to lead and to run the country. Political parties are not contracted to win elections. Political parties are born and formed to express political viewpoints. Unfortunately, our political system dates back to a civil war and as a result, normal, political doctrines are largely missing from the Irish political landscape. Our only hope now is that those Fianna Fail voters will have learnt a lesson but don't put your house on it.


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    #52
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    I don't understand how you can criticise a government for persuing policies they were elected for over and over and over again (As you aptly point out) If it was a one term government (IE, a blip) I'd understand. But this was re-election after re-election after re-election. its what I would call a mandate.


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    #53
    The Volt
    Registered Users Posts: 7,957 ✭✭✭The Volt


    Denerick wrote: »
    I don't understand how you can criticise a government for persuing policies they were elected for over and over and over again (As you aptly point out) If it was a one term government (IE, a blip) I'd understand. But this was re-election after re-election after re-election. its what I would call a mandate.
    Most of the strokes carried out in the name of Fianna Fail by Haughey, Ahern and the present Taoiseach Brian Cowen are not to be found in any Fianna Fail policies that were approved by any Irish electorate. In most civilised countries, what they practiced with their friends in the golden circle would be considered corruption and would have all of them locked up in Jail.

    The level of corruption and the parish pump politics they perfected are not to be found in any of their policy documents either. You can blame the electorate for being naive, stupid, greedy and for allowing the wool to be pulled over their eyes but ultimately it's usually the friends of the perpetrators that tend to blame the victims.


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    #54
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    I'm sorry, but I don't consider consensual voters as 'victims'. Please don't treat voters like children - that, I think, is part of the problem. We need tough love, we need to keep informed, to have an opinion, to read, to learn etc. etc. Bad governance is the just reward of the ignorant. I've no sympathy for these supposed 'victims'.


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    #55
    The Volt
    Registered Users Posts: 7,957 ✭✭✭The Volt


    Denerick wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but I don't consider consensual voters as 'victims'. Please don't treat voters like children - that, I think, is part of the problem. We need tough love, we need to keep informed, to have an opinion, to read, to learn etc. etc. Bad governance is the just reward of the ignorant. I've no sympathy for these supposed 'victims'.
    If there's no victims then there's no crime committed. If there's no crime committed, there's no criminal. Congratulations, you've just let them off the hook. Just as they've been let off the hook by their fellow travellers and the likelyhood is that none of them will ever have to pay for their crimes. Particularly in circumstances where people like you believe that there are no victims. There are tens of thousands of voters who never voted Fianna Fail, what about their rights?


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    #56
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    I feel sorry for myself and others who never voted FF, but don't whinge about it. I'm sick of hearing people whinge about it. Its not like FF were in on the political philosophy alone. They were in the political mainstream. I'm sorry, but this is the reality, blaming them alone for this economic crash betrays a fundamental lack of knowledge of economics.


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    #57
    The Volt
    Registered Users Posts: 7,957 ✭✭✭The Volt


    Denerick wrote: »
    I feel sorry for myself and others who never voted FF, but don't whinge about it. I'm sick of hearing people whinge about it. Its not like FF were in on the political philosophy alone. They were in the political mainstream. I'm sorry, but this is the reality, blaming them alone for this economic crash betrays a fundamental lack of knowledge of economics.
    I never blamed them alone for the economic crash but I do blame them for their lack of planning during the good times, for their lack of oversight of our financial institutions, for the financial perks they gave to the construction industry which assisted to the economy overheating etc. It is interesting that other countries were able to provide for the rainy day while our government only made matters much worse. The important issue is that people should learn from their mistakes and be held responsible for their actions. A refusal to deal with issues on this basis will only ensure more of the same.

    What we need now is leadership and a leadership that will try to unite all sections of society behind a vision which will deliver us from our present plight. Anything less is to accept that things will never change and I can't live with that prospect.


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    #58
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    Voltwad wrote: »
    I never blamed them alone for the economic crash but I do blame them for their lack of planning during the good times, for their lack of oversight of our financial institutions, for the financial perks they gave to the construction industry which assisted to the economy overheating etc. It is interesting that other countries were able to provide for the rainy day while our government only made matters much worse. The important issue is that people should learn from their mistakes and be held responsible for their actions. A refusal to deal with issues on this basis will only ensure more of the same.

    What we need now is leadership and a leadership that will try to unite all sections of society behind a vision which will deliver us from our present plight. Anything less is to accept that things will never change and I can't live with that prospect.

    What countries had a rainy day fund???

    Most of the western world have horrific national debts. I'm not arsed arguing about this further, you have your view, I have mine, lets leave it at that.


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    #59
    danman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    Voltwad wrote: »
    Most of the strokes carried out in the name of Fianna Fail by Haughey, Ahern and the present Taoiseach Brian Cowen are not to be found in any Fianna Fail policies that were approved by any Irish electorate. In most civilised countries, what they practiced with their friends in the golden circle would be considered corruption and would have all of them locked up in Jail.

    in the last GE, I voted FG, simply because of their vow to lower/abolish stamp duty.

    Do you think that was wise, given hindsight?

    Would they have abolished stamp duty if they had got into power?
    If so, what would have been the consequences to the eventual collapse of the economy?
    Would the bubble have struggled on a little bit longer, culminating in a bigger collapse?

    Governments are elected on the policies that they put forward. But conditions change. Decisions have to be made on current conditions. Not some hypothetical future condition.


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    #60
    rightwingdub
    Registered Users Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    I voted FF-PDS in 2002 and again in 2007, FF are a cultural sympthom of a society that has felexible attitude towards rules in Irelland, there has always been a cultural tolerance of corruption within the FF parliamentary party, most FF TDS are not corrupt, Irish people alsd to take ahard look at themselves and assess their own attitudes towards rules.

    BTW, FF deserve to be in opoosition for the next 20 years.


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    #61
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    Voltwad wrote: »
    As a 3rd level student I have never and never will support this party, their inability alone to lead the country out of this mess, to bring people together is enough without everything else. Denerick, I find it very hard to disagree with a lot of the points you make there but it's also important to remember that they squandered our surplusses to the point where if you read it you wouldn't know if it was a farce or a tragedy.

    Aye third level student.... one of those types who gets a heavily subsidised education compared to most other countries. Maybe you should have done your undergraduate in the uk where the average debt a student starts off their career is £20,000. But yeah knock the party that gives you heavily subsidised education.


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