Fianna Fail's actions are tantamount to murder

The Volt

It's time for this shower to clear out. More and more they're turning ordinary working people against each other. Some have even taken their own lives due to their inability to cope without a home or a job. The decision to bail out the banks rather than going back to the basics of human agency is a prime reason why less and less, people are patriotic. Fianna Fail have ruined this country and they must go. Murderers, they've done some damage.

If somebody marched into their offices tomorrow and shot the whole lot of them, I wouldn't even attend the state funeral and to be honest I'd rather sit on the side of the road in the freezing cold and pissings of rain in a decrepit sleeping bag than sit in a pub with a Fianna Fail minister. They disgust me. The people of this country have been robbed blind and blinded by lies and remain infected by an apathy that needs to be cured.

Their refusal to hold an open enquiry into the banking system, the way in which they have looked after their own cronies with golden handshakes etc, the closure of special needs schools, the cuts to education, the proposed bulldozing of all of the ghost buildings, the destroying of small businesses such as honest, hard working hotel owners, etc, etc, etc. Where does it end? How much are people willing to stand for? The U.S. and the U.K. have already imprisoned the wrong-doers, why not us?

They try to shy away from all of this by saying it's in the past and that we need to look forward. If history has thought us anything it's that we need to re-visit the past in order to learn from it and to ensure that the same mistakes are not made ever again. Mary Harney once said that the Irish electorate has a memory of a fortnight. This government's arrogance and belief that they possess a god-given right to ru(i)n this country must be turned on its' head.

Denerick

There was a significent element of crony capitalism in this country, true, and the policies this government developed were also problematic, true.

But whinging about the policies the Irish people and the political establishment demanded over the last 20 years, is worse than dishonest and is self delusional.

Blame the government all you want, make yourself feel better, but I really do wish that people would take some personal responsibility and accept that the masses driven consumerism and constant speculation (Why the hell did we need to purchase holiday homes in Bulgaria??) and consumption (This constant supply of decking in our overpriced suburban homes) was at the heart of this economic crash. Not to mention forces completely outside of our control. This economy relied on cheap credit from German savers and an intricate international financial system that went to the toilet. We had no power over that.

The world is much more complex than you give it credit for. A few catchphrases in pubs does not make for a national policy, and doesn't get to the root of why we are in the mess we are in.

Dotsie~tmp

Say it like Taggart used to say it.

Murrdurrgr

The Volt

Denerick wrote: »

There was a significent element of crony capitalism in this country, true, and the policies this government developed were also problematic, true.

But whinging about the policies the Irish people and the political establishment demanded over the last 20 years, is worse than dishonest and is self delusional.

Blame the government all you want, make yourself feel better, but I really do wish that people would take some personal responsibility and accept that the masses driven consumerism and constant speculation (Why the hell did we need to purchase holiday homes in Bulgaria??) and consumption (This constant supply of decking in our overpriced suburban homes) was at the heart of this economic crash. Not to mention forces completely outside of our control. This economy relied on cheap credit from German savers and an intricate international financial system that went to the toilet. We had no power over that.

The world is much more complex than you give it credit for. A few catchphrases in pubs does not make for a national policy, and doesn't get to the root of why we are in the mess we are in.

As a 3rd level student I have never and never will support this party, their inability alone to lead the country out of this mess, to bring people together is enough without everything else. Denerick, I find it very hard to disagree with a lot of the points you make there but it's also important to remember that they squandered our surplusses to the point where if you read it you wouldn't know if it was a farce or a tragedy.

Denerick

Voltwad wrote: »

As a 3rd level student I have never and never will support this party, their inability alone to lead the country out of this mess, to bring people together is enough without everything else. Denerick, I find it very hard to disagree with a lot of the points you make there but it's also important to remember that they squandered our surplusses to the point where if you read it you wouldn't know if it was a farce or a tragedy.

They raised the level of public spending whilst simultaneously cut the tax burden. I don't recall anyone being disappointed in that.

Face it, the people are idiots, they supported populist policies, and now everyone is paying the price for being irrational voters. Political parties are reflective of the wishes of the people, this is how representative democracy works. Its a lot easier to blame a small oligarchy in government, the reality is we have ourselves to blame for what has happened. I don't support FF and will never vote for them, but I'm exhausted listening to the whinging of people who only 2 or 3 years beforehand were either voting for FF or FG, who supported in essence the same political policies.

The Volt

Denerick wrote: »

They raised the level of public spending whilst simultaneously cut the tax burden. I don't recall anyone being disappointed in that.

Face it, the people are idiots, they supported populist policies, and now everyone is paying the price for being irrational voters. Political parties are reflective of the wishes of the people, this is how representative democracy works. Its a lot easier to blame a small oligarchy in government, the reality is we have ourselves to blame for what has happened. I don't support FF and will never vote for them, but I'm exhausted listening to the whinging of people who only 2 or 3 years beforehand were either voting for FF or FG, who supported in essence the same political policies.

Like I said above, you're not listening to one of them here. True, people in this country asked for lower taxes for years and got what they wanted. The end result is a terrible public service with ****e infrastructure in transport and communications, public hospitals in a state and then some. People were voting for them because they were all on the gravy train.

Denerick

Voltwad wrote: »

Like I said above, you're not listening to one of them here. True, people in this country asked for lower taxes for years and got what they wanted. The end result is a terrible public service with ****e infrastructure in transport and communications, public hospitals in a state and then some. People were voting for them because they were all on the gravy train.

Yes, and as a result of voting for what they wanted they got the government they deserved. Hence why its a delegation of personal responsibility to blame the government alone, who persued the policies the political establishment were in consensus over. At the height of the boom years, even the Labour party were calling for tax cuts.

The Volt

Denerick wrote: »

Yes, and as a result of voting for what they wanted they got the government they deserved. Hence why its a delegation of personal responsibility to blame the government alone, who persued the policies the political establishment were in consensus over. At the height of the boom years, even the Labour party were calling for tax cuts.

I'm fully aware of what's happened in the past and I'd like to think that Labour are a different proposition nowadays.

IrishTonyO

Voltwad wrote: »

I'm fully aware of what's happened in the past and I'd like to think that Labour are a different proposition nowadays.

They are a different propostion for sure, the cost of implementing their policies would bankrupt the country, be bad for business and therefore employment, their higher taxes would send people out of the country at a faster rate. International companies would not be as inclined to invest here with a labour government and the amount of sway they give unions. And I have no party affiliations whatsoever, I am what they call a floating voter who decides on the issues and the policies at the time

Fulton Crown

Good on you - that's the way most thinking folk would see it.

A prevoious poster asked why would people need apartments in Budapest - the answer is they don't need them but there was an investment opportunity.

You can hardly blame people for tying to take advantage of that ?

But ..Lenihan apart - this Govt is mad up of the same arseholes who subscribe to the nod and wink way of doing things - who were bosom buddies with Seanie and Fingers and who sucked up to the hard hats at the Galway tent.

That oaf McCreevy and blubberin Bertie have a lot to answer for ..but its the CULTURE that they espoused and encouraged that's the real killer..

And has condemmed our children and grandchildren to decades of paying for their profligacy.

:eek:

MagicSean

I don't see the link to murder.

Fulton Crown

Voltwad wrote: »

I'm fully aware of what's happened in the past and I'd like to think that Labour are a different proposition nowadays.

I can tell you this pal..bad and all as the current lot are ...if the beards or their fellow travellers got anywhere near the levers of power all the bright young talent with any sense would leave the country,

And they would be so right !

djpbarry

Fulton Crown wrote: »

A prevoious poster asked why would people need apartments in Budapest - the answer is they don't need them but there was an investment opportunity.

You can hardly blame people for tying to take advantage of that ?

Well, if we're going to point the finger of blame at the banks who supplied the mortgages...

bmaxi

djpbarry wrote: »

Well, if we're going to point the finger of blame at the banks who supplied the mortgages...

No point in pointing the finger of blame at anybody, in a culture where nobody is accountable.

Taxipete29

Fulton Crown wrote: »

I can tell you this pal..bad and all as the current lot are ...if the beards or their fellow travellers got anywhere near the levers of power all the bright young talent with any sense would leave the country,

And they would be so right !

Erm Hello, all the best and the brightest are already leaving the country.

The country is fcuked as it stands. If you think its a case of better the devil you know ie FF then you deserve the country you get.

MaceFace

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Erm Hello, all the best and the brightest are already leaving the country.

The country is fcuked as it stands. If you think its a case of better the devil you know ie FF then you deserve the country you get.

There are plenty of us left

Honestly though, we have a real problem here because FF deserve to be out of power for the next 20 years, and not just out of power, but hammered out where they are a minority party that have to reinvent themselves.
However, it won't happen and it will be themselves or FG who lead the next government.

Saying that, if looks like Labour will get in, and god help us if they do. Tax the rich (job creators) out of the country, no more paycuts for anyone less than 35k which leads to lack of competitiveness due to pay pressure on all higher scales.
We will all be worse off.

Fulton Crown

MaceFace wrote: »

There are plenty of us left

Honestly though, we have a real problem here because FF deserve to be out of power for the next 20 years, and not just out of power, but hammered out where they are a minority party that have to reinvent themselves.
However, it won't happen and it will be themselves or FG who lead the next government.

Saying that, if looks like Labour will get in, and god help us if they do. Tax the rich (job creators) out of the country, no more paycuts for anyone less than 35k which leads to lack of competitiveness due to pay pressure on all higher scales.
We will all be worse off.

Too true we would pal..if any of them deadheads got near the levers of power.

If any of them shower of lefty crusties get anywhere near power it will be the end of any hope we have.

And it's quite possible - look at the number of people who voted for the skangers friend Higgins in the last Euro elections.

Be afraid ...the beards are smelling power....be very afraid....:eek:

Hugo Drax

Voltwad wrote: »

It's time for this shower to clear out. More and more they're turning ordinary working people against each other. Some have even taken their own lives due to their inability to cope without a home or a job. The decision to bail out the banks rather than going back to the basics of human agency is a prime reason why less and less, people are patriotic. Fianna Fail have ruined this country and they must go. Murderers, they've done some damage.

If somebody marched into their offices tomorrow and shot the whole lot of them, I wouldn't even attend the state funeral and to be honest I'd rather sit on the side of the road in the freezing cold and pissings of rain in a decrepit sleeping bag than sit in a pub with a Fianna Fail minister. They disgust me. The people of this country have been robbed blind and blinded by lies and remain infected by an apathy that needs to be cured.

Their refusal to hold an open enquiry into the banking system, the way in which they have looked after their own cronies with golden handshakes etc, the closure of special needs schools, the cuts to education, the proposed bulldozing of all of the ghost buildings, the destroying of small businesses such as honest, hard working hotel owners, etc, etc, etc. Where does it end? How much are people willing to stand for? The U.S. and the U.K. have already imprisoned the wrong-doers, why not us?

They try to shy away from all of this by saying it's in the past and that we need to look forward. If history has thought us anything it's that we need to re-visit the past in order to learn from it and to ensure that the same mistakes are not made ever again. Mary Harney once said that the Irish electorate has a memory of a fortnight. This government's arrogance and belief that they possess a god-given right to ru(i)n this country must be turned on its' head.

They were elected by the people and they'll govern until the mandate expires in 2012.

I would then expect FF to get enough votes to form a coalition again.

Any of the smaller parties (including labour) will queue up to go into Govt with FF.

When will people like you wake up and realise that Ireland is a single party system.

FF have been in power for the vast majority of the existance and that's always going to be the case.

By the time 2012 rolls around, the Irish electorate will have forgotten any grudge they have against FF and will return them to power.

The Irish electorate talk a good game but they'll NEVER abandon FF.

Taxipete29

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Be afraid ...the beards are smelling power....be very afraid....:eek:

yeah cos they have had no influence over FF for the last 12 years. :rolleyes:

deadbloke

Hugo Drax wrote: »

FF have been in power for the vast majority of the existance and that's always going to be the case.

By the time 2012 rolls around, the Irish electorate will have forgotten any grudge they have against FF and will return them to power.

The Irish electorate talk a good game but they'll NEVER abandon FF.

Very true. Never underestimate the short term memory of the Irish voter.

Spiritoftheseventies

What i dont understand is why the Government through Nama are leaving it till September to chase after the developers. Most of them will have transferred their properties into their wives names by then. Just dont know if Government really has the will to take these people on. And by all accounts they turned their one back on the man (ie Quinn) who seemed to providing employment for an awful lot of people

the_syco

Voltwad wrote: »

As a 3rd level student

Would you have still been a 3rd level student if they didn't bring in free fees back in '96?

The Volt

the_syco wrote: »

Would you have still been a 3rd level student if they didn't bring in free fees back in '96?

'free'? I paid 1500 for my college fees this year, an increase of 66% from the previous year.

Elevator

Denerick wrote: »

They raised the level of public spending whilst simultaneously cut the tax burden. I don't recall anyone being disappointed in that.

Face it, the people are idiots, they supported populist policies, and now everyone is paying the price for being irrational voters. Political parties are reflective of the wishes of the people, this is how representative democracy works. Its a lot easier to blame a small oligarchy in government, the reality is we have ourselves to blame for what has happened. I don't support FF and will never vote for them, but I'm exhausted listening to the whinging of people who only 2 or 3 years beforehand were either voting for FF or FG, who supported in essence the same political policies.

bull****, if the sheep get lost who do ya blame

the sheep or the shepard?

they knew f-ing well what they are doing, they are crafty hoors and dont think they're not

dont get me started

bijapos

Hugo Drax I would then expect FF to get enough votes to form a coalition again.

Any of the smaller parties (including labour) will queue up to go into Govt with FF.

I think you're well wide of the mark here. The only possibility after the next election is FG-Lab. I seriously do not see FG getting 83+ seats, unless Labour screw up big time on some issue. FF will not get near 70 seats no matter how much the economy picks up, I think 48 at the very worst, 64 absolute max, but would bet on 55 +/- 3.

So FF's only real possibility would be a coalition with Labour. This is not going to happen. Gilmore has said so on a number of occasions, this weekend just past is only the most recent. I

f he were to do so he would lose all form of respect for himself and his party amongst his own voters and swing/floating voters and would damn the party for another 15-20 years after.

He will not make this mistake.

Denerick

Elevator wrote: »

bull****, if the sheep get lost who do ya blame

the sheep or the shepard?

they knew f-ing well what they are doing, they are crafty hoors and dont think they're not

dont get me started

Yes, I'd imagine once you'd get started the rest of the rabble would join in

Pride Fighter

the_syco wrote: »

Would you have still been a 3rd level student if they didn't bring in free fees back in '96?

That was the Labour party that did that, not Fianna Fail.

Tender Hoop

I like ice cream

Hugo Drax

bijapos wrote: »

I think you're well wide of the mark here. The only possibility after the next election is FG-Lab. I seriously do not see FG getting 83+ seats, unless Labour screw up big time on some issue. FF will not get near 70 seats no matter how much the economy picks up, I think 48 at the very worst, 64 absolute max, but would bet on 55 +/- 3.

So FF's only real possibility would be a coalition with Labour. This is not going to happen. Gilmore has said so on a number of occasions, this weekend just past is only the most recent. I

f he were to do so he would lose all form of respect for himself and his party amongst his own voters and swing/floating voters and would damn the party for another 15-20 years after.

He will not make this mistake.

It's not like Labour haven't sold their souls for office before, Dick Spring ring a bell??

BlaasForRafa

Elevator wrote: »

bull****, if the sheep get lost who do ya blame

the sheep or the shepard?

they knew f-ing well what they are doing, they are crafty hoors and dont think they're not

dont get me started

Exactly, just because people voted for them (not me btw), it does not absolve them of the responsibility to govern in a responsible way. Which of course they did not do, they encouraged irresponsible lending and development through light touch regulation and lax planning, they gave away billions in benchmarking agreements which we now cannot pay for, they've done nothing about waste in government and public services and they've mortaged the nations future to this doomed nama enterprise and zombie banks like Anglo.

Being voted in does not mean that they should be able to act like chancers, conmen and gombeens and if they have (and we know that they have) they should be run out of power.

southsiderosie

Elevator wrote: »

bull****, if the sheep get lost who do ya blame

the sheep or the shepard?

they knew f-ing well what they are doing, they are crafty hoors and dont think they're not

dont get me started

Irish voters have continually supported FF, even though it seems pretty obvious that they have been absolutely rotten on banking and economic regulation since the 1970s. Everyone was fat and happy from 1997-2007, and willing to turn a blind eye, even if anyone with half a brain could see where the real estate market was heading. And I wouldn't be surprised if FF were to pull something off in 2012, especially if there is an economic recovery - that election is a looooong ways away.

Hugo Drax

southsiderosie wrote: »

Irish voters have continually supported FF, even though it seems pretty obvious that they have been absolutely rotten on banking and economic regulation since the 1970s. Everyone was fat and happy from 1997-2007, and willing to turn a blind eye, even if anyone with half a brain could see where the real estate market was heading. And I wouldn't be surprised if FF were to pull something off in 2012, especially if there is an economic recovery - that election is a looooong ways away.

Exactly, I'll be voting for them again.

Who else is there?

IrishTonyO

Hugo Drax wrote: »

Exactly, I'll be voting for them again.

Who else is there?

No way

MagicSean

Hugo Drax wrote: »

Exactly, I'll be voting for them again.

Who else is there?

I think we'll see a lot of that kind of apathy. Everyone hates FF but noone like the other partys enough to vote for them. I'm thinking along the same lines.

I still don't see why the thread title mentions murder. Very misleading.

The Volt

k_mac wrote: »

I think we'll see a lot of that kind of apathy. Everyone hates FF but noone like the other partys enough to vote for them. I'm thinking along the same lines.

I still don't see why the thread title mentions murder. Very misleading.

Because the options that they chose to pursue rather than looking after the weak, the poor and needy have had such a negative impact on society and this country as a whole. 80,000 people without a home, nearly 500,000 people unemployed. No good will towards the people of this country, only for their buddies.

Liam Byrne

Hugo Drax wrote: »

Exactly, I'll be voting for them again.

Who else is there?

Lots of far-from-ideal but far-less-corrupt-and-incompetent people.

djpbarry

Voltwad wrote: »

Because the options that they chose to pursue rather than looking after the weak, the poor and needy have had such a negative impact on society and this country as a whole.

Are you suggesting that even more public money should have been spent on social welfare to protect "the vulnerable"?

Voltwad wrote: »

80,000 people without a home...

Sorry, what now? There are 80,000 homeless people in Ireland?

The Volt

djpbarry wrote: »

Are you suggesting that even more public money should have been spent on social welfare to protect "the vulnerable"?
Sorry, what now? There are 80,000 homeless people in Ireland?

I meant 80,000 on the housing list sorry. I would have preferred a million and one things to the pointless building of endless apartments, and hotels.

derfderf

There's one thing i've always wondered peoples opinion on. Do people think any of the other parties would have handled things that much differently if they'd been in power through the boom times? How much better would FG/Labour have prepared us for the market crash and would the financial regulator actually have done their job properly on their watch?

rightwingdub

southsiderosie wrote: »

Irish voters have continually supported FF, even though it seems pretty obvious that they have been absolutely rotten on banking and economic regulation since the 1970s. Everyone was fat and happy from 1997-2007, and willing to turn a blind eye, even if anyone with half a brain could see where the real estate market was heading. And I wouldn't be surprised if FF were to pull something off in 2012, especially if there is an economic recovery - that election is a looooong ways away.

FF won't get back into government after the next election, not a snowballs chance in hell although I wouldn't be surprised if they had the highest number of votes and seats for them to get back into government in 2017, your right there a lot of Irish people lost the plot as regards property from 1995-2007, maybe one thing will change is our cultural love affair with property and maybe renting might become fashionable amongst young middle class couples.

The problem is Kenny is clueless and probably just as bad as Cowen, how FG haven't ditched him yet as leader is beyond me, as for Gilmore he needs a severe injection of electric shock therapy after all the ppulist rubbish he's come out with in the last couple of years, he is utterly clueless as regards taxation and the Labour party are seen as the party of the public sector trade unions by most private sector workers.

southsiderosie

rightwingdub wrote: »

FF won't get back into government after the next election, not a snowballs chance in hell although I wouldn't be surprised if they had the highest number of votes and seats for them to get back into government in 2017, your right there a lot of Irish people lost the plot as regards property from 1995-2007, maybe one thing will change is our cultural love affair with property and maybe renting might become fashionable amongst young middle class couples.

The problem is Kenny is clueless and probably just as bad as Cowen, how FG haven't ditched him yet as leader is beyond me, as for Gilmore he needs a severe injection of electric shock therapy after all the ppulist rubbish he's come out with in the last couple of years, he is utterly clueless as regards taxation and the Labour party are seen as the party of the public sector trade unions by most private sector workers.

Well based on your post and a few others above, voters have a choice of the devil they do know (FF), the devil they kind of know and don't really like (FG) and Satan and his minions (Labour and unions...or maybe that is vice-versa?).

Bad metaphors aside, I actually think Labour would be in a better position to keep the unions under control than FG or FF. In most countries, unions are less likely to strike and be intransigent when there is a leftist party in government (the unions are actually taking a lot of heat for this in Spain - they won't strike against the socialist government).

Ultimately, given the numbers involved, I guess you'd have to ask if you are worse off with a party in hock to unions, or a party in hock to bankers. Or FG (still can't figure out what they are all about).

Denerick

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Exactly, just because people voted for them (not me btw), it does not absolve them of the responsibility to govern in a responsible way. Which of course they did not do, they encouraged irresponsible lending and development through light touch regulation and lax planning, they gave away billions in benchmarking agreements which we now cannot pay for, they've done nothing about waste in government and public services and they've mortaged the nations future to this doomed nama enterprise and zombie banks like Anglo.

Being voted in does not mean that they should be able to act like chancers, conmen and gombeens and if they have (and we know that they have) they should be run out of power.

If people are unhappy with their government, they vote them out. If people are ignorant about their government, then everyone suffers. Its a sad fact but true. Blame the people who voted in the government. I'm sick of this generation thinking they have some kind of entitlement to a great government. Democracy has responsibilities as well as rights.

The Volt

Denerick wrote: »

If people are unhappy with their government, they vote them out. If people are ignorant about their government, then everyone suffers. Its a sad fact but true. Blame the people who voted in the government. I'm sick of this generation thinking they have some kind of entitlement to a great government. Democracy has responsibilities as well as rights.

Well said.

Denerick

derfderf wrote: »

There's one thing i've always wondered peoples opinion on. Do people think any of the other parties would have handled things that much differently if they'd been in power through the boom times? How much better would FG/Labour have prepared us for the market crash and would the financial regulator actually have done their job properly on their watch?

People generally prefer to overlook that. Having a ready made bogeyman gives everyone the beautiful luxury of not having to engage in thought.

The Volt

Denerick wrote: »

People generally prefer to overlook that. Having a ready made bogeyman gives everyone the beautiful luxury of not having to engage in thought.

People also seem to be constantly willing to forgive FF their wrong do-ings due to their cute whoreism and the fact that they gave the pensioners the bus passes.

Denerick

Voltwad wrote: »

People also seem to be constantly willing to forgive FF their wrong do-ings due to their cute whoreism and the fact that they gave the pensioners the bus passes.

I don't 'forgive' FF, I think their handling of the economy wasn't good, but I also recognise that they merely reflected the will of the people and the political establishment. If FG were elected at the last election, I can guarantee you the economic crash would have hit us just as bad, so blaming FF for the cancer in our political culture is simply lazy.

The Volt

Denerick wrote: »

I don't 'forgive' FF, I think their handling of the economy wasn't good, but I also recognise that they merely reflected the will of the people and the political establishment. If FG were elected at the last election, I can guarantee you the economic crash would have hit us just as bad, so blaming FF for the cancer in our political culture is simply lazy.

FF have been in power in this country for 90% of the history of the state so the type of political system, opportunism, chicanery, cynicism and cronie-ism which now exists could never have blossomed without their active participation. In those circumstances there is absolutely no evidence to support claims that it would not have made any difference if somebody else was in power. One thing that is crystal clear is that nobody could have been any worse.

Denerick

Voltwad wrote: »

FF have been in power in this country for 90% of the history of the state so the type of political system, opportunism, chicanery, cynicism and cronie-ism which now exists could never have blossomed without their active participation. In those circumstances there is absolutely no evidence to support claims that it would not have made any difference if somebody else was in power. One thing that is crystal clear is that nobody could have been any worse.

You seem to be blaming FF for creating a political culture the rest of the political world in this country, and the voters followed. Personally, I think that's dishonest and that the people you should be angry with is your local FF election volunteer for partaking in such an Orwellian scheme.

The Volt

Denerick wrote: »

You seem to be blaming FF for creating a political culture the rest of the political world in this country, and the voters followed. Personally, I think that's dishonest and that the people you should be angry with is your local FF election volunteer for partaking in such an Orwellian scheme.

Yes, I am blaming them. They're still Fianna Fail. That's not being dishonest, that's absolute fact. They've had the time to change things and they haven't.

Denerick

Voltwad wrote: »

Yes, I am blaming them. They're still Fianna Fail. That's not being dishonest, that's absolute fact. They've had the time to change things and they haven't.

But who is to blame for that? If voters continuously vote in the same old party all the time, how can they expect the party to change? You're blaming a political party for, in essence, doing what they are contracted to do (Win elections) I'm telling you that you should be blaming the voters if you think FF is really such an Orwellian organisation.

The Volt

I can accept that the voters have made bad choices but that doesn't excuse the actions of the people who were elected to lead and to run the country. Political parties are not contracted to win elections. Political parties are born and formed to express political viewpoints. Unfortunately, our political system dates back to a civil war and as a result, normal, political doctrines are largely missing from the Irish political landscape. Our only hope now is that those Fianna Fail voters will have learnt a lesson but don't put your house on it.