[Article] Galway to Limerick rail route to run at €2.4m loss

JHMEG · 25-03-2010 9:43am #1

By Paul Melia

Thursday March 25 2010

JUST 320 passengers a day will use the €110m Galway-Limerick train service which opens for business next week.

And it will take longer to travel by rail than by road, with 30 minutes added to the journey time of commuters who choose to go green and leave the car at home.

The Irish Independent has learnt Iarnrod Eireann expects to lose €2.4m a year running the service, with just 100,000 passengers expected to make the switch from road to rail in the first five years.

Even by 2015 when passenger numbers are expected to double to 640 people a day, trains will run at less than 40pc capacity, an independent review of the state rail company's business reveals.

The first stage of the controversial Western Rail Corridor, the Limerick to Galway service opens next Tuesday.

It will serve Galway, Athenry, Craughwell, Ardrahan, Gort, Ennis, Sixmilebridge and Limerick -- linking the cities in just under two hours.

However, the journey by road takes just 90 minutes and is expected to be even shorter when the Gort--Crusheen dual carriageway opens next year.

The faster journey time means Iarnrod Eireann will face an uphill struggle to convince people to change to trains.

"The key issue will be the ability of the service to generate patronage in the context of a much improved road network and increasing bus competition," the company's business case says.

"A major element of risk associated with this project relates to the impact of the Transport 21 Atlantic Road Corridor and increasing car ownership levels. The business case suggests that the justification for the project is on grounds of its contribution to regional development."

It has also emerged:

* Five trains will run in each direction per day, two fewer than promised when the line was being planned.
* The interval between trains was to have been no more than three hours. For some services, however, it is almost four.
* A day return will cost €20, but fares will meet only €1m of operating costs per year, meaning the taxpayer will have to subvent the line by €2.4m.
* The maximum speed on the line is less than 100kmh.

Approved

But Iarnrod Eireann said it was confident it could increase passenger numbers, and that the service would be developed over time.

Spokesman Barry Kenny added the project was prepared under Department of Transport guidelines for capital funding, and approved. "This will be a deliverable and reliable city-to-city journey time."

Fine Gael Transport spokes- man Fergus O'Dowd said it would be "difficult" to make the project work. "It seems a very expensive operation," he said.

There are two phases left to complete on the Western Rail Corridor. Phase two will link Athenry to Tuam, and phase three will reopen the Tuam to Claremorris line.

However, both are dependent on capital funding, and a decision has not been made on when the rest of the project will proceed.

Rail passengers lobby group, Rail Users Ireland, criticised the lack of services, saying that people would not use the rail network unless frequent services were provided.

- Paul Melia

Irish Independent

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/galway-to-limerick-rail-route-to-run-at-836424m-loss-2110771.html

corktina · 25-03-2010 10:11am

Old news on C&T...surely the other phases are dead now...

dynamick · 25-03-2010 10:32am

JHMEG wrote: »

Fine Gael Transport spokes- man Fergus O'Dowd said it would be "difficult" to make the project work. "It seems a very expensive operation," he said.

The same Fine Gael that wrote this in their last election manifesto:

FG manifesto 1997 wrote:

Western Rail Corridor
• Fine Gael will support the reopening of the line from Ennis to Sligo and will re-open the WRC as far as Claremorris, during our first term in Government and instigate a Railway Order to Coolooney.

Every party was sold on the WRC.

As corktina says, the data in the report is old news in this forum.

I noticed this on the DoT site yesterday:

Dempsey announces €14 million in 2010 for bus priority and park & ride in the regional cities of Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford

I imagine that from a public transport point of view this will be money far better spent with a positive ROI and no ongoing annual losses. It should have been done years ago but it's good to see it at last.
http://www.transport.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=186

JHMEG · 25-03-2010 10:38am

May be old news on the forum, but some of it is new news to me!

In light of the Rosslare-Waterford line being up for closure because of the loss it's making I find it ironic that the planned loss on this line is bigger.

I also fail to see the point in the tax-payer subsidising services that seem to be pointless - ie, slower and more expensive than every other service.

Judgement Day · 25-03-2010 10:50am

Just like CIE to inaugurate the new service on such a positive note. Is it any wonder that the line is going to lose money hand over fist with an attitude like this? :rolleyes:

dynamick · 25-03-2010 10:51am

JHMEG wrote: »

I also fail to see the point in the tax-payer subsidising services that seem to be pointless - ie, slower and more expensive than every other service.

The report detailing how the project made no sense would carry hardly any passengers , would lose money by the million and would be considerably slower and less frequent and less popular than the bus was obtained under a freedom of information request and reported in the newspapers. You can read the report here. This is laughably the most viable section of the WRC.

The reason the project is being carried out despite it making as much sense as a chocolate teapot is that it has an effective lobby group, it obtained cross party support at local and central government level and in the eyes of the locals the project couldn't fail as it was being built with money from Dublin.

invinciblePRSTV · 25-03-2010 11:21am

Judgement Day wrote: »

Just like CIE to inaugurate the new service on such a positive note. Is it any wonder that the line is going to lose money hand over fist with an attitude like this? :rolleyes:

It's the Irish Independent who ran the story, they are not Irish rail.

loyatemu · 25-03-2010 11:35am

Indo wrote:

But Iarnrod Eireann said it was confident it could increase passenger numbers, and that the service would be developed over time.

like they've done with Limerick - Rosslare, eh?

Cookie_Monster · 25-03-2010 12:14pm

what a joke

DWCommuter · 25-03-2010 2:00pm

While I'm not a fan of the WRC, I'd be confident enough in saying that its not the only line subsidised. It was obvious since 2003 that a subsidy would be required and the recent stories on the proposed services don't strengthen its case either.

However to be fair to the line and many others, one would wonder if the infrastructure costs were taken out of the equation (like the Luas) would the pax numbers generate an operating profit or at least cover costs. I continue to be amazed at the different accounting techniques applied to IE/RPA/Luas/Veolia.

Judgement Day · 25-03-2010 2:25pm

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

It's the Irish Independent who ran the story, they are not Irish rail.

Who do you think supplied theIndo with the info regarding expected passenger loading/losses etc - West on Track?? :rolleyes:

munchkin_utd · 25-03-2010 2:31pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

While I'm not a fan of the WRC, I'd be confident enough in saying that its not the only line subsidised. It was obvious since 2003 that a subsidy would be required and the recent stories on the proposed services don't strengthen its case either.

However to be fair to the line and many others, one would wonder if the infrastructure costs were taken out of the equation (like the Luas) would the pax numbers generate an operating profit or at least cover costs. I continue to be amazed at the different accounting techniques applied to IE/RPA/Luas/Veolia.

Its as transparant and mud.

in an ideal world it should be made know publicly what each line costs in terms of infrastructure upkeep and separately in terms of subsidy for services on the line.

If anything that would make railways seem (maybe) less expensive, as the main cost of a railway is that it has its own "roads" and bridges to maintain, and the subsidy for services themselves mightnt be that bad(???)

I still maintain that rail and bus should work in tandem as a system, rather than compete with each other in a way that only leads to achieving an even higher need for government (rail) subsidies.

dynamick · 25-03-2010 2:37pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

However to be fair to the line and many others, one would wonder if the infrastructure costs were taken out of the equation (like the Luas) would the pax numbers generate an operating profit or at least cover costs. I continue to be amazed at the different accounting techniques applied to IE/RPA/Luas/Veolia.

The projects were measured in a similar way. The projected loss is an operational loss and is in adition to the capital cost.

WRC ennis-athenry
capital cost 106m
pax 100K-200K
fare €5
revenue: €500k-1m
annual operational cost €3m
op loss: 2m-2.5m
repayment on capital* = 6.8m
total subsidy per passenger journey: €45-90

luas
capital cost 775m
pax: 27.4m
fare €1.46
revenue: 42.2m
annual operational cost 40m
op profit: 2.2m
repayment on capital* = 50m
total subsidy per passenger journey: €1.75

* over 30yrs @5%

datrias · 25-03-2010 3:20pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Its as transparant and mud.

I still maintain that rail and bus should work in tandem as a system, rather than compete with each other in a way that only leads to achieving an even higher need for government (rail) subsidies.

Agreed.

Surely this type of service does not provide a level playing field for all operators.

KevR · 25-03-2010 3:50pm

dynamick wrote: »

I noticed this on the DoT site yesterday:

Dempsey announces €14 million in 2010 for bus priority and park & ride in the regional cities of Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford

I imagine that from a public transport point of view this will be money far better spent with a positive ROI and no ongoing annual losses. It should have been done years ago but it's good to see it at last.
http://www.transport.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=186

It really depends on how you look at it. The long standing plans to upgrade the Seamus Quirke/Bishop O'Donnell road in Galway to Dual Carriageway have been hi-jacked by bus lane plans. The upgrade is supposed happen this year but there will be zero benefit to the majority of people who use this road because they are putting in bus lanes instead of extra lanes for all traffic.

Putting in bus lanes on the SQ/BOD road would be money well spent if there was a decent bus service running along this road.
However, buses towards the City Centre from Rahoon and Knocknacarra only use a small section of this road so there will be a long stretch of bus lane Eastbound with zero buses per day using it!!! I'm not aware of any plans to by Bus Eireann or City Direct to alter their routes to utilise the full bus lane..

I'm not against bus lanes at all but Galway has aweful traffic problems and some people seem to think throwing a few bus lanes in completely random places will solve the traffic nightmare. It's a crazy waste of money. The money could be much better spent.

munchkin_utd wrote: »

I still maintain that rail and bus should work in tandem as a system, rather than compete with each other in a way that only leads to achieving an even higher need for government (rail) subsidies.

I can't believe the WRC is opening and there is still no station in Oranmore. Seems like a no brainer to me:

KevR wrote:

Oranmore station with a Park and Ride.

A totally seperate Bus Park and Ride has been mooted for Oranmore - I think this would be a huge mistake.
There will be 12 trains each way everyday going through Oranmore station.

Galway City commuter traffic from the M6 and N18 has to pass Oranmore (in future it will be M6/M17/M18; projections of 26,000 each way/52,000 total daily!).

Build an integrated Bus & Rail Park and Ride at Oranmore. There would trains going to Galway City Centre anyway (it's not like they'll need to put on extra trains) and they could have some buses going to the industrial estates on the East Side.

The buses would have to be properly timetabled to meet commuter demand and to make interchanging with trains easy.

Ticketing would be entirely integrated - for example you could get the train from Athenry to Oranmore and then change onto a bus in Oranmore with a single ticket.

For special events, such as big matches at Pearse Stadium (where there is absolutely no parking available, the Park and Ride and buses could be used for getting people to/from the stadium. Buses could be sent to the racecourse during race week and there would be no need for the Christmas P&R at the racecourse.

I think between the towns of Oranmore, Athenry (both 12 trains each way), Craughwell, Gort (both 5 trains each way) and Ballinasloe (7 trains each way) and people parking in Oranmore, IE could get decent numbers of commuters on their trains and buses with an integrated service.

They should forget about trying attract long distance Galway-Limerick passengers; the train can't compete with buses and cars. Focus on commuter passengers at both ends.

munchkin_utd · 25-03-2010 4:24pm

KevR wrote: »

They should forget about trying attract long distance Galway-Limerick passengers; the train can't compete with buses and cars. Focus on commuter passengers at both ends.

Quite possibly thats the minimum they should be attempting, which would mean significant park and rides at the commuter rail stations at an affordable cost.

They should also add a stop at Renmore strand to allow the 1000s of GMIT students and 1000s of people working in Mervue access to commuter/ mainline rail without the need to go to town and come back out again
(probably needing integration with city bus service to bring people to the industrial estates but sure aren't Bus Eireann and Irish rail the same company so that wont be a problem, ahem.)

KevR · 25-03-2010 4:30pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Quite possibly thats the minimum they should be attempting, which would mean significant park and rides at the commuter rail stations at an affordable cost.

They should also add a stop at Renmore strand to allow the 1000s of GMIT students and 1000s of people working in Mervue access to commuter/ mainline rail without the need to go to town and come back out again
(probably needing integration with city bus service to bring people to the industrial estates but sure aren't Bus Eireann and Irish rail the same company so that wont be a problem, ahem.)

Agreed.

I personally would have the integrated Oranmore Rail and Bus Park and Ride as my immediate priority.

Renmore station and integration of city bus services in that area along with double tracking Galway-Athenry as medium term priorities.

Forget about the WRC going to Claremorriss.

dynamick · 25-03-2010 5:54pm

Improving commuter transport in Galway and Limerick should have been the priority. A few hundred people will want to travel between Galway and Limerick on any given day but tens of thousands will need to get to work or education each day. You do not build a train to carry a few hundred people a day and you do not prioritise the needs of the many over the needs of the few even if 4 bishops advise that you do.

invinciblePRSTV · 25-03-2010 6:51pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Who do you think supplied theIndo with the info regarding expected passenger loading/losses etc - West on Track?? :rolleyes:

So you're saying that IR should keep the info private then, is that right?

dynamick wrote: »

Improving commuter transport in Galway and Limerick should have been the priority. A few hundred people will want to travel between Galway and Limerick on any given day but tens of thousands will need to get to work or education each day. You do not build a train to carry a few hundred people a day and you do not prioritise the needs of the many over the needs of the few even if 4 bishops advise that you do.

100 million would have paid for a whole bunch of QBCs in Galway & Limerick, this would have done far more for PT in those places then the WRC ever will

DWCommuter · 25-03-2010 6:56pm

dynamick wrote: »

The projects were measured in a similar way. The projected loss is an operational loss and is in adition to the capital cost.

WRC ennis-athenry
capital cost 106m
pax 100K-200K
fare €5
revenue: €500k-1m
annual operational cost €3m
op loss: 2m-2.5m
repayment on capital* = 6.8m
total subsidy per passenger journey: €45-90

luas
capital cost 775m
pax: 27.4m
fare €1.46
revenue: 42.2m
annual operational cost 40m
op profit: 2.2m
repayment on capital* = 50m
total subsidy per passenger journey: €1.75

* over 30yrs @5%

Apologies, I didn't articulate myself correctly. Im not talking about construction costs.

What Im trying to say is that Luas operators, Veolia, don't appear to carry the costs of maintaing the infrastructure for Luas. The RPA do. Where as Irish Rail have to account for maintaing their infrastructure. So in essence Luas can make a profit while its a lot harder for IR to do it.

Im open to correction on this.

dowlingm · 25-03-2010 7:04pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

However to be fair to the line and many others, one would wonder if the infrastructure costs were taken out of the equation (like the Luas) would the pax numbers generate an operating profit or at least cover costs. I continue to be amazed at the different accounting techniques applied to IE/RPA/Luas/Veolia.

This is why Ireland needs to conform to the relevant EU directive which it is currently derogating from and separate track and infrastructure. At the present time it's as if Aer Rianta and Aer Lingus were the same company, with no idea how much was being charged to Aer Lingus in landing fees.

The critical point is this - when BE doesn't want to run Expressway from point A to point B any more, it doesn't get to close the road before Aircoach or Citylink can apply to run the route. We can talk about other operators running scheduled trains on Irish rails all we like but until the network operations are transferred to a neutral company (in State ownership) no-one will seriously apply to do so.

DWCommuter · 25-03-2010 7:09pm

dowlingm wrote: »

This is why Ireland needs to conform to the relevant EU directive which it is currently derogating from and separate track and infrastructure. At the present time it's as if Aer Rianta and Aer Lingus were the same company, with no idea how much was being charged to Aer Lingus in landing fees.

The critical point is this - when BE doesn't want to run Expressway from point A to point B any more, it doesn't get to close the road before Aircoach or Citylink can apply to run the route. We can talk about other operators running scheduled trains on Irish rails all we like but until the network operations are transferred to a neutral company (in State ownership) no-one will seriously apply to do so.

Indeed.

Ive always been in favour of seperating the service and infrastructural aspects of our rail network. But I'm still curious about the Luas set up. Is it correct that Veolia run the service while the state picks up the tab for maintaining the infrastructure?

KevR · 25-03-2010 9:03pm

Galway City Council are now going to look into a Park and Ride at Doughiska. :rolleyes: :mad:

So we will have:

An under-used Galway-Limerick rail service because there is no desire to tap into the commuter market at either end.
A standalone Bus P&R in Doughiska which will not get much use. Bear in mind there are huge levels of employment in the vicinity of Doughiska (Parkmore, Ballybrit and Ballybane industrial estates). If someone has battled their way as far as Doughiska in the traffic they are not going to pay to use a P&R for the last kilometre or two of their journey.
Possibly even another standalone Bus P&R at Oranmore.
A disjointed/unreliable/infrequent city bus service.
No Railway station or Rail P&R at Oranmore and no station at Renmore.
A few bus lanes in random places which don't have an adequate service running on them.

In roughly 3 years there will be 26,000 cars passing Oranmore in each direction (52,000 total) on the M6 everyday. 12 trains will be running through the Oranmore area in each direction everyday; but it looks like there will be no station and no proper P&R....

A station in the Oranmore area would be within walking distance the Oranmore Business Park which is pretty big/busy. It would be impossible for a train station to not be walking distance - if it's far from the business park, it's too far from the town!

The trains will be useful for people going to Galway City Centre. So for those going to the industrial estates on the East Side, there should be buses provided. Integrated ticketing and proper timetabling to allow easy interchanging would be essential.

The development plan of Oranmore town should involve curtailment of the town expanding to the South. Future development should be to the North of the town near the railway station. Oranmore could become a hugely attractive place to set up a business/industry or to live in - near the M6, complete avoidance of Galway City traffic, a train station giving easy access to Galway City Centre, reliable buses to East Galway industrial estates.

Judgement Day · 25-03-2010 9:19pm

KevR - agree with a lot of your post but too much joined up thinking is required. I still can't believe that Oranmore station hasn't been reopened - there again actually I can! :rolleyes:

JHMEG · 25-03-2010 9:51pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

KevR - agree with a lot of your post but too much joined up thinking is required. I still can't believe that Oranmore station hasn't been reopened - there again actually I can! :rolleyes:

ColdChon have a platform in their depot in Oranmore, yet send up to 20 lorries a day to Dublin port to collect bitumen etc. I don't blame ColdChon - they're doing it for the commercially right reasons.

Ham'nd'egger · 25-03-2010 10:11pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

Indeed.

Ive always been in favour of seperating the service and infrastructural aspects of our rail network. But I'm still curious about the Luas set up. Is it correct that Veolia run the service while the state picks up the tab for maintaining the infrastructure?

This is my understanding of the arrangement. Veolia just run the trams and network; the RPA have to incur the costs in running it and that. It sure will be fun in about 10 years when track work etc need to be replaced:rolleyes:

KevR · 26-03-2010 4:41pm

Correction, there will be 14(!) trains passing through the stationless Oranmore every weekday. I said 12 in my post yesterday.

FlameoftheWest · 26-03-2010 4:48pm

The good old Indo, putting this stuff out there when the line is already built after years of issuing WoT/Anorak Press Releases as indisputable fact, while ignoring anyone who stated what Paul Melia has written below. Such journalistic and editorial integrity. The facts always come before potentially damaging their sales West of the Shannon... Yep, that the "Independent" alright!

JHMEG wrote: »

By Paul Melia

Thursday March 25 2010

JUST 320 passengers a day will use the €110m Galway-Limerick train service which opens for business next week.

And it will take longer to travel by rail than by road, with 30 minutes added to the journey time of commuters who choose to go green and leave the car at home.

The Irish Independent has learnt Iarnrod Eireann expects to lose €2.4m a year running the service, with just 100,000 passengers expected to make the switch from road to rail in the first five years.

Even by 2015 when passenger numbers are expected to double to 640 people a day, trains will run at less than 40pc capacity, an independent review of the state rail company's business reveals.

The first stage of the controversial Western Rail Corridor, the Limerick to Galway service opens next Tuesday.

It will serve Galway, Athenry, Craughwell, Ardrahan, Gort, Ennis, Sixmilebridge and Limerick -- linking the cities in just under two hours.

However, the journey by road takes just 90 minutes and is expected to be even shorter when the Gort--Crusheen dual carriageway opens next year.

The faster journey time means Iarnrod Eireann will face an uphill struggle to convince people to change to trains.

"The key issue will be the ability of the service to generate patronage in the context of a much improved road network and increasing bus competition," the company's business case says.

"A major element of risk associated with this project relates to the impact of the Transport 21 Atlantic Road Corridor and increasing car ownership levels. The business case suggests that the justification for the project is on grounds of its contribution to regional development."

It has also emerged:

* Five trains will run in each direction per day, two fewer than promised when the line was being planned.
* The interval between trains was to have been no more than three hours. For some services, however, it is almost four.
* A day return will cost €20, but fares will meet only €1m of operating costs per year, meaning the taxpayer will have to subvent the line by €2.4m.
* The maximum speed on the line is less than 100kmh.

Approved

But Iarnrod Eireann said it was confident it could increase passenger numbers, and that the service would be developed over time.

Spokesman Barry Kenny added the project was prepared under Department of Transport guidelines for capital funding, and approved. "This will be a deliverable and reliable city-to-city journey time."

Fine Gael Transport spokes- man Fergus O'Dowd said it would be "difficult" to make the project work. "It seems a very expensive operation," he said.

There are two phases left to complete on the Western Rail Corridor. Phase two will link Athenry to Tuam, and phase three will reopen the Tuam to Claremorris line.

However, both are dependent on capital funding, and a decision has not been made on when the rest of the project will proceed.

Rail passengers lobby group, Rail Users Ireland, criticised the lack of services, saying that people would not use the rail network unless frequent services were provided.

- Paul Melia

Irish Independent

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/galway-to-limerick-rail-route-to-run-at-836424m-loss-2110771.html

FlameoftheWest · 26-03-2010 4:57pm

KevR wrote: »

I personally would have the integrated Oranmore Rail and Bus Park and Ride as my immediate priority.
.

This is just the typical anti-west...

Seriously, you are making too much sense. Your solution fails on the following counts:

A) No Mayo Priest Has a Improved Chance of Sainthood.

Nobody in Hemel Hempstead Would be Excited by this.

FlameoftheWest · 26-03-2010 5:02pm

KevR wrote: »

Correction, there will be 14(!) trains passing through the stationless Oranmore every weekday. I said 12 in my post yesterday.

Sickening isn't it - one of the largest commuting towns in the West of Ireland with a workable commuter potential and it is ignored completely and especially by the West on Track shower and their small army of Ryanaired Fruitcakes.

wild handlin · 26-03-2010 7:17pm

Remember - that ALL railway lines in Ireland recieve a subsidy from the Govt. not just the "less used lines".

It appears to me that some posters in the past seem to have thought that the DART (for example) is not subsidised.

Prove me wrong, but every journey taken in Ireland run by IE is subsidised, and it's not just the "West Rail Corridor".

Personally I think it's a disgrace the line speed which IE have set, the rubbish rolling stock it's putting on the line - and the COMPLETE lack of publicity on the opening of the line. The timetable and journey times are beyond a joke, and shows just how interested IE are in operating the line.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out it's the same standard of track, and same standard of enginering which has gone into the WRC as there has been on the Dublin - Cork mainline, regarding track, signalling etc. 50mph for much of thw way is utterly laughable.

IF and I say the word if, the line does get built from Atherny - Tuam - Claremorris and the freight trains currently running from the West = South east use the line, then surely the line will make up some of the "lost revinue" from "no-one using the line" except train spotters. Remember, in the IE annunal report freight made up 1.3% of trains running during the past year, yet made 10% of the revinue!! I say build the line from Atherny - Claremorris and grow the existing freight traffic and use the line predominatly for freight.

Also, I note here that many folks seem to be saying that "most of the people using the line will be UK train spotters for the first day or two".
Is there any evidence to back up this claim, I sometimes take a look at an "Irish Railway Enthusiast" forum (no it's not IRN) which has a large percentage of UK trainspotters on it. And I can tell you, virtually no-one really cares about the line to the extent that they will be on the first train on the line opening!!
Infact, if anything it will only be a handful of Irish spotters who will be out by my reconing.

Comments, thoughts?