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    #302
    Sosa
    Registered Users Posts: 3,209 ✭✭✭Sosa


    8.2m @ 7:20 Pace

    Lovely morning again,looking forward to the rest of the week,nice easy running.
    I should be rearing to go next Monday.


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    #303
    heffsarmy
    Registered Users Posts: 911 ✭✭✭heffsarmy


    Great running Sosa well done, have you decided on a target for Cork?


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    #304
    Sosa
    Registered Users Posts: 3,209 ✭✭✭Sosa


    heffsarmy wrote: »
    Great running Sosa well done, have you decided on a target for Cork?

    Thanks Heff,Sub 3 is the target.


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    #305
    heffsarmy
    Registered Users Posts: 911 ✭✭✭heffsarmy


    Sosa wrote: »
    Sub 3 is the target

    Thats well in the bag on your current form. All going well, with 14wks till Cork, sub 2.50 would be more off a target.


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    #306
    Sosa
    Registered Users Posts: 3,209 ✭✭✭Sosa


    heffsarmy wrote: »
    Thats well in the bag on your current form. All going well, with 14wks till Cork, sub 2.50 would be more off a target.

    If i attempted 2:50...i would probably blow up again like Dublin,i never want to feel like that again.
    I would be very happy with Sub-3.


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    #307
    Sosa
    Registered Users Posts: 3,209 ✭✭✭Sosa


    A lovely 6m this morning.
    First mile 7:38,second mile 7:18...then [EMAIL="4@7:00ish....very"]4@7:00ish....very[/EMAIL] happy and would have liked to keep going.
    First LSR tomorrow in prep for Cork :eek:...
    I will be taking it handy,going to do the majority of the LSR's between 7:20 and 7:30 i think,because i will be doing a pmp run most weeks of 10+miles another day.
    Im actually going to have a chat with a few fellas in the club about that.

    Anyone care to comment ?


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    #308
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,496 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    Ahh, the age-old chestnut. Well, if you're going to do a pmp run during the week, you can't afford to be doing your long runs quickly. So, just how many sessions are you planning on doing every week?
    1 x Intervals session
    1 x Tempo session
    1 x PMP run
    1 x Long run
    Or are you going to sacrifice one of the other sessions for the PMP run?
    I guess the risk is of doing too many sessions in a week, in which case all sessions could suffer in terms of quality (or worse, over-use injuries).

    I reckon that people get too hung up about the pace of the long run. I ran them at a comfortable pace, which meant my average heart rate (effort) was comfortably within the suggested P&D parameters, and avoided injuries. I also did longer runs that the program suggested, in order to ensure that I got the time on my feet (21/22 mile runs). The average pace for my long runs was around 7:08 (for a similar marathon goal to your own). The important point though, is that I was running comfortably, so other sessions in the week didn't suffer. Any slower, and the run would have been at recovery heart rate levels, which would mean losing some of the benefits of the long run.


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    #309
    Abhainn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,236 ✭✭✭Abhainn


    SOSA two races in two weeks , too PB's, great stuff.
    I'd be dropping the LSR this week and enjoy it as a easy period.
    Do the LSR next week. You've loads of time to get in 4/ 5 LSR's and peak for Cork and anyway you have sufficient medium runs behind you.


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    #310
    Gringo78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,120 ✭✭✭Gringo78


    Sosa wrote: »
    First LSR tomorrow in prep for Cork :eek:...
    I will be taking it handy,going to do the majority of the LSR's between 7:20 and 7:30 i think,because i will be doing a pmp run most weeks of 10+miles another day.
    Im actually going to have a chat with a few fellas in the club about that.

    Anyone care to comment ?

    I'd be an advocate of keeping the LSR and the PMP seperate if you can. Takes less out of you and reduces risk of injury and also promotes the whole fat burning metabolism thing which seems to be important for marathons.

    As regards fitting all the various sessions in in a week, I'm finding now that I can't do 4 in a week, I had planned to but in the last 8 weeks 3 is the max I've managed any week....I think a good balance would be to do PMP each week, and alternate tempo and interval sessions for the other slot. If you didn't work and hence could do an LSR any day of week, I'd be an advocate of an 8 day week training cycle i.e 4 session a week, with a recovery day in between each one but the cycle would move forward a day each week. Possibly the way professional atheltes work???


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    #311
    Sosa
    Registered Users Posts: 3,209 ✭✭✭Sosa


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    Ahh, the age-old chestnut. Well, if you're going to do a pmp run during the week, you can't afford to be doing your long runs quickly. So, just how many sessions are you planning on doing every week?
    1 x Intervals session
    1 x Tempo session
    1 x PMP run
    1 x Long run
    Or are you going to sacrifice one of the other sessions for the PMP run?
    I guess the risk is of doing too many sessions in a week, in which case all sessions could suffer in terms of quality (or worse, over-use injuries).

    I reckon that people get too hung up about the pace of the long run. I ran them at a comfortable pace, which meant my average heart rate (effort) was comfortably within the suggested P&D parameters, and avoided injuries. I also did longer runs that the program suggested, in order to ensure that I got the time on my feet (21/22 mile runs). The average pace for my long runs was around 7:08 (for a similar marathon goal to your own). The important point though, is that I was running comfortably, so other sessions in the week didn't suffer. Any slower, and the run would have been at recovery heart rate levels, which would mean losing some of the benefits of the long run.

    I am planning 3 quality sessions a week,one LSR,one PmP and either tempo/intervals...i was looking at Mon/Wed and Fri for those and Tue/Thurs/Sat for the easy runs,those days could change but you get the idea.
    7:08 seems fast for LSR's (for me).
    On weeks i have a race (i have 3 planned),i will drop the the intervals/tempo and do a smaller PmP.
    I also plan at least 1x22m run,probably my second last LSR.
    Thanks
    Abhainn wrote: »
    SOSA two races in two weeks , too PB's, great stuff.
    I'd be dropping the LSR this week and enjoy it as a easy period.
    Do the LSR next week. You've loads of time to get in 4/ 5 LSR's and peak for Cork and anyway you have sufficient medium runs behind you.

    Thanks abhainn,actually on second thought,your right,i will drop the LSR tomorrow...and as yousaid i have plenty of medium longs done since christmas,most with pmp thrown in there,so i'll relax for this week and hit the ground running (apologies) next monday...13 weeks to go !
    Gringo78 wrote: »
    I'd be an advocate of keeping the LSR and the PMP seperate if you can. Takes less out of you and reduces risk of injury and also promotes the whole fat burning metabolism thing which seems to be important for marathons.

    As regards fitting all the various sessions in in a week, I'm finding now that I can't do 4 in a week, I had planned to but in the last 8 weeks 3 is the max I've managed any week....I think a good balance would be to do PMP each week, and alternate tempo and interval sessions for the other slot. If you didn't work and hence could do an LSR any day of week, I'd be an advocate of an 8 day week training cycle i.e 4 session a week, with a recovery day in between each one but the cycle would move forward a day each week. Possibly the way professional atheltes work???

    I have to address "whole fat burning metabolism thing" as you put it,i think it was one of my big problems for Dublin...as you read above i'll be doing 3 quality sessions a week when i have no race that week,hope to peak at 70m at least 2 weeks and 60-65 for the majority of the rest other than taper and the week before the wexford half.


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    #312
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,496 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    Sosa wrote: »
    I am planning 3 quality sessions a week,one LSR,one PmP and either tempo/intervals...i was looking at Mon/Wed and Fri for those and Tue/Thurs/Sat for the easy runs,those days could change but you get the idea.
    7:08 seems fast for LSR's (for me).
    See, I wasn't advocating 7:08 as a pmp pace. Instead, what I was saying is that you should run at a comfortable pace, based on either your heart rate or perceived effort, which in my case was around 7:08. Of course the pace shouldn't be too physically demanding either. You should be able to finish the run relatively comfortably, without injuring yourself. There's no point in choosing an arbitrary number and saying 'that's my pace for long runs'. The books (and runners like myself) can only make suggestions based on our own experiences, which are likely to be different from your own. But what we can all agree on, is that effort shouldn't be too fast, that it can cause exhaustion or damage (or reduce the physiological effectiveness) or too slow, where again, the physiological benefits are lost. Finding the right biting point is the bit that you should be trying to achieve.

    Krusty (all theory, and no practical!).


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    #313
    Sosa
    Registered Users Posts: 3,209 ✭✭✭Sosa


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    See, I wasn't advocating 7:08 as a pmp pace. Instead, what I was saying is that you should run at a comfortable pace, based on either your heart rate or perceived effort, which in my case was around 7:08. Of course the pace shouldn't be too physically demanding either. You should be able to finish the run relatively comfortably, without injuring yourself. There's no point in choosing an arbitrary number and saying 'that's my pace for long runs'. The books (and runners like myself) can only make suggestions based on our own experiences, which are likely to be different from your own. But what we can all agree on, is that effort shouldn't be too fast, that it can cause exhaustion or damage (or reduce the physiological effectiveness) or too slow, where again, the physiological benefits are lost. Finding the right biting point is the bit that you should be trying to achieve.

    Krusty (all theory, and no practical!).

    I hear ya Krusty...i did 3 20's and 1x22 for Dublin and i was flogged after 1 of the 20's and almost fell over after the 22...all because i was trying to keep them at a certain pace (which was nothing to write home about),so that was detrimental to my training,another reason to get them right this time round.
    Thanks.
    I'll start them off at 7:20/7:30 and take it from there.


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    #314
    village runner
    Registered Users Posts: 1,656 ✭✭✭village runner


    Plus one sosa. I do them all at around 7.25 which is comfy.
    As the marathon nears I will do a run at PMP also a run 14 slow 8 at pace.


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    #315
    misty floyd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭misty floyd


    Hey Sosa,
    I read over lots of your log for your DCM training last week (stalker :o). I find the sub 3 attempts very interesting. You had a similar experience in DCM to what I had except you are way ahead of me (finished 3:25). I was running similar in training. Not the same pace but the same effort I'd say. Most were at a medium to fast clip. Sorry if I'm wrong here. Tergat talks about burning fuel often is kind of like training the body to do that....burn fuel (I'm sure I read that somewhere). I'm getting great benefit from running easy and recovery between two big workouts every week. I feel strong during and after the big workouts and I know its the easy & recovery that help. You talked about feeling wrecked after the big ones for DCM....I was the exact same. I had to lie down, feeling sick. Now I'm getting much fitter from all of the miles (even though many are easy) and can finish big workouts not feeling crap. Best of luck with training for Cork. 13 weeks.....next marathon I do will be a 12 week program. 18 is far to long, mentally, in my opinion.


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    #316
    Sosa
    Registered Users Posts: 3,209 ✭✭✭Sosa


    misty floyd wrote: »
    Hey Sosa,
    I read over lots of your log for your DCM training last week (stalker :o). I find the sub 3 attempts very interesting. You had a similar experience in DCM to what I had except you are way ahead of me (finished 3:25). I was running similar in training. Not the same pace but the same effort I'd say. Most were at a medium to fast clip. Sorry if I'm wrong here. Tergat talks about burning fuel often is kind of like training the body to do that....burn fuel (I'm sure I read that somewhere). I'm getting great benefit from running easy and recovery between two big workouts every week. I feel strong during and after the big workouts and I know its the easy & recovery that help. You talked about feeling wrecked after the big ones for DCM....I was the exact same. I had to lie down, feeling sick. Now I'm getting much fitter from all of the miles (even though many are easy) and can finish big workouts not feeling crap. Best of luck with training for Cork. 13 weeks.....next marathon I do will be a 12 week program. 18 is far to long, mentally, in my opinion.

    Thanks Misty...i am going to do all my LSR's at an easy pace...whatever that is on a given day.


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    #317
    Sosa
    Registered Users Posts: 3,209 ✭✭✭Sosa


    Nothing to report today,i had knocked the LSR on the head but will not be running today at all,due to dodgy take-away last night and i have not eaten since....
    Hope to eat later and get out for 6 in the morning,think im over the worst of it.

    But the good news is that i registered for Cork last night (birthday present from the wife).....
    now she cant give out about it as she paid for it ;)


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    #318
    Sosa
    Registered Users Posts: 3,209 ✭✭✭Sosa


    Nice handy 5 miler to shake off yesterdays troubles.
    I was very slow for the first 3m,than picked it up a bit to average out at 7:53p...felt sluggish,just weak i suppose having not eaten,hope the appetite is back today so i can try 10 in the morning.
    If not,its no big deal as i will definitely be ready to start my program on Monday.
    Better have this now that in the middle of it.


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    #319
    Sosa
    Registered Users Posts: 3,209 ✭✭✭Sosa


    12m this morning at an overall pace of 7:51
    I did 2m down to meet Sungod and we did the guts of 7m together before i made up another 3m up to the house after he went in for a nice hot jacuzzi ( ah,how the other half lives )....
    I am still feeling tired from thursdays dodgy stomach.although that has cleared up,my appetite is not what it was and i suppose i am a bit weak because of it.
    No run tomorrow....planned pmp run on monday to kickstart the program for cork,we will see how i feel about that on monday,hope to have the energy to do that,if i dont i'll do the mileage anyway and skip the pmp for the week.

    Only 37m for the week :eek:...
    Wont be having anymore of those for a while :D


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    #320
    tisnotover
    Registered Users Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭tisnotover


    Ah, ya needed a step-back week Sosa, ya deserve it after the times you've put in lately.

    Good to hear you've registered for Cork, a lot of talk about it this year already and numbers seem to be up on last year.


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    #321
    Sosa
    Registered Users Posts: 3,209 ✭✭✭Sosa


    Date|Miles|Ave pace|Type|Weather|Weeks to Cork
    08-03-10|15|w/10@6:46|Med w/pmp|Lovely|12
    09-03-10|||||12
    10-03-10|||||12
    11-03-10|||||12
    12-03-10|||||12
    13-03-10|||||12
    14-03-10|||||12


    So,here we go again...first day of the road to cork !

    Great run that was in doubt really as i am still not 100% from last thursday but decided to give it a go and if i could not keep the pace,so be it.
    Got through it anyway,i added a 5m loop onto my regular 10m route as i want to keep the lsr route and this one different as i get very pi$$ed off going out the same long road twice a week.
    Im going to keep this route for my pmp runs as its tough,plenty of hills.
    Hope that it will stand to me.

    The first 3m were handy..22 mins flat...then i kicked out the [EMAIL="10@pmp...fastest"]10@pmp...fastest[/EMAIL] was 6:43...slowest was 6:51,and that took in plenty of tough hills....so really happy to keep the pace during those miles,what i thought was a handy last 3m was tough also as there was a serious enough headwind all the way down the cork road to the tower hotel and its usually with you going down there,so i got nothing handy today.

    Overall - 15m @ 6:58p


    Long|Med w/pmp|Aerobic|Tempo|Vo2|Recovery|Race|Total
    |1||||||1


    Wk 1|Wk 2|Wk 3|Wk 4|Wk 5|Wk 6
    ||||||


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    #322
    Gringo78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,120 ✭✭✭Gringo78


    Sosa wrote: »
    Long|Med w/pmp|Aerobic|Tempo|Vo2|Recovery|Race|Total
    |1||||||1

    Best of luck with the Marathon training....you'll soon be able to exorcise the demons of Dublin.

    I have serious issues though with you calling a 15 mile run 'Medium' :D


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    #323
    Sosa
    Registered Users Posts: 3,209 ✭✭✭Sosa


    Gringo78 wrote: »
    Best of luck with the Marathon training....you'll soon be able to exorcise the demons of Dublin.

    I have serious issues though with you calling a 15 mile run 'Medium' :D

    Thanks Gringo,i'll be trying my best anyway.

    As for 15m being medium,thats what P&D say it is.
    I have used there lingo since i bought "advanced marathoning" before i attempted Dublin.

    Long is 16+,medium is 12-16,aerobic is easy...


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    #324
    village runner
    Registered Users Posts: 1,656 ✭✭✭village runner


    Best of luck with cork training. I can see those pmp turning into 6.30s in june


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    #325
    Sosa
    Registered Users Posts: 3,209 ✭✭✭Sosa


    Date|Miles|Ave pace|Type|Weather|Weeks to Cork
    08-03-10|15|w/10@6:46|Med w/pmp|Lovely|12
    09-03-10|6|7:25|Aerobic|Fantastic|12
    10-03-10|||||12
    11-03-10|||||12
    12-03-10|||||12
    13-03-10|||||12
    14-03-10|||||12


    Handy aerobic paced run to get me ready for the tempo tomorrow.


    Long|Med w/pmp|Aerobic|Tempo|Vo2|Recovery|Race|Total
    |1|1|||||2


    Wk 1|Wk 2|Wk 3|Wk 4|Wk 5|Wk 6
    ||||||


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    #326
    Sosa
    Registered Users Posts: 3,209 ✭✭✭Sosa


    Date|Miles|Ave pace|Type|Weather|Weeks to Cork
    08-03-10|15|w/10@6:46|Med w/pmp|Lovely|12
    09-03-10|6|7:25|Aerobic|Fantastic|12
    [EMAIL="10-03-10|9|w/5@6:06|Tempo|Fantastic|12"]10-03-10|9|w/5@6:06|Tempo|Fantastic|12[/EMAIL]
    11-03-10|||||12
    12-03-10|||||12
    13-03-10|||||12
    14-03-10|||||12


    Great day again and only did 5m on this weeks tempo,as its the first week of the program,i'll be doing plenty of 6's along the way.
    Felt good for the majority bar the first mile to get yourself going.

    Long|Med w/pmp|Aerobic|Tempo|Vo2|Recovery|Race|Total
    |1|1|1||||3


    Wk 1|Wk 2|Wk 3|Wk 4|Wk 5|Wk 6
    ||||||


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    #327
    Sosa
    Registered Users Posts: 3,209 ✭✭✭Sosa


    Date|Miles|Ave pace|Type|Weather|Weeks to Cork
    08-03-10|15|w/10@6:46|Med w/pmp|Lovely|12
    09-03-10|6|7:25|Aerobic|Fantastic|12
    10-03-10|9|w/5@6:06|Tempo|Fantastic|12
    11-03-10|6|7:23|Aerobic|Fantastic|12
    12-03-10|||||12
    13-03-10|||||12
    14-03-10|||||12


    Lovely 6m in perfect conditions.
    First LSR tomorrow....looking forward to it.

    Long|Med w/pmp|Aerobic|Tempo|Vo2|Recovery|Race|Total
    |1|1|2||||4


    Wk 1|Wk 2|Wk 3|Wk 4|Wk 5|Wk 6
    ||||||


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    #328
    Peckham
    Registered Users Posts: 3,485 ✭✭✭Peckham


    Your tone is definitely one of someone at the start of their marathon training schedule. Ahh, the bright carefree days before the tedium sets in! :D

    Seriously, though - hope it all goes well for you. Will follow this one closely as we could see big things.


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    #329
    Sosa
    Registered Users Posts: 3,209 ✭✭✭Sosa


    Peckham wrote: »
    Your tone is definitely one of someone at the start of their marathon training schedule. Ahh, the bright carefree days before the tedium sets in! :D

    Seriously, though - hope it all goes well for you. Will follow this one closely as we could see big things.

    Yeah,i have 3 aims here.

    Enjoy the training
    Not explode on the big day
    Sub 3

    I have decided to change my plan a bit.
    I had planned to hit 70m a few times,but i was talking to a coach down these parts and he put me off that,telling me that more miles is not the way to go for me as i dont have years of building to that sort of mileage up and you cant just jump into that after 2 years running.
    Remember for my first year i was only doing 30m a week,and im only running 2.5 years in total.
    So with that in mind i will be maxing at 65,with most weeks hovering around the 60 mark with big emphasis on specific marathon training.
    I will be doing some of tergats training runs and knocking the straight 6m tempos as i was told that my race pace for 10m being 6:03p that my 6m tempos at 6:05 were way to fast and i was beyond LT pace and burning glycocen and not training the body to burn fats (big problem i had for Dublin).
    Also knocking the 10/12 straight miles at pmp and doing in in the tergat way of 5-4-3-2-1...things like that.
    Also only 2 hard sessions a week as opposed to the 3 i planned myself.

    My first week of 12 looks like this :
    Week 1: Mon 15th-Sun 21st March
    Mon: 6 miles easy
    Tue: 16 Miles (Alternating 1 Mile Easy/2 Miles @ Marathon Pace)
    Wed: 5 miles easy
    Thur: 7 miles easy, stretching & 4*10 second Short Hill Sprints (Jogging start & walk back slow rec 2-3 mins)
    Fri: Long Run 18 miles on hills (With last mile steady 6:50p) & stretching
    Sat: 8 miles easy, stretching & 6*100m strides
    Sun: Rest

    Total – 60m

    I hope that the more specific training will help me not get a repeat of Dublin


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    #330
    Gringo78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,120 ✭✭✭Gringo78


    Sosa wrote: »
    knocking the straight 6m tempos as i was told that my race pace for 10m being 6:03p that my 6m tempos at 6:05 were way to fast and i was beyond LT pace and burning glycocen and not training the body to burn fats (big problem i had for Dublin).

    I'm thinking of knocking these back to max once a fortnight aswell....I've only persisted with them in the last few weeks because of Ballycotton 10.

    The deeper you delve into the whole methods of training, the more you realise you have to be a one trick pony at any one time i.e you have to have the marathon goal and nothing else. A 10 mile race goal thrown in in the middle will dilute the effectiveness of marathon training (nothing wrong with racing one, but modifying your training to PB at 10 miles is bad for the marathon).

    Its funny, professional athletes struggle to do a 5k & 10k double or you say one runner is a 5km specialist, the other is a 10km specialist and then you have amateurs like us racing everything from 800m to marathon and expecting McMillan predicted PB's accross the board.


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    #331
    Sosa
    Registered Users Posts: 3,209 ✭✭✭Sosa


    Gringo78 wrote: »
    I'm thinking of knocking these back to max once a fortnight aswell....I've only persisted with them in the last few weeks because of Ballycotton 10.

    The deeper you delve into the whole methods of training, the more you realise you have to be a one trick pony at any one time i.e you have to have the marathon goal and nothing else. A 10 mile race goal thrown in in the middle will dilute the effectiveness of marathon training (nothing wrong with racing one, but modifying your training to PB at 10 miles is bad for the marathon).

    Its funny, professional athletes struggle to do a 5k & 10k double or you say one runner is a 5km specialist, the other is a 10km specialist and then you have amateurs like us racing everything from 800m to marathon and expecting McMillan predicted PB's accross the board.

    I know,we think we can do it all.

    So its marathon training only for the next 12 weeks,even though i have a 4m,half and a 7.5m race in there.
    So whatever i get in Wexford for the half,i know i'll have to beat that at the half down here in Dec as i will train specificly for that one also...

    Specific is my word for the day :D


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