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Suppression of free speech in Galway, Ireland

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    #62
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    Justind wrote: »
    As I said, leftist groups such as these are currently and in a co-ordinated fashion, mobilising for the Lisbon No vote ie. the No to Lisbon movement is using them.
    Its that simple.
    I'm really trying to follow you, but your not making much sense.
    Are you saying that the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity awareness table in Galway these many years, is in reality covertly part of a coordinated No-To-Lisbon movement?
    And it's something to do with Leftist political leanings?
    And what, this is some big conspiracy against us. :eek:


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    #63
    Cannibal Ox
    Registered Users Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭Cannibal Ox


    RedPlanet wrote:
    Are you saying that the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity awareness table in Galway these many years, is in reality covertly part of a coordinated No-To-Lisbon movement?
    From the story you quoted
    Tommy Donnellan of IFPAL (Irish Friends of Palestine Against Lisbon)

    Not sure why they've become anti-Lisbon, considering it has nothing to do with Israel and Palestine.


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    #64
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    The Garda was perfectly within his rights. Fair play. He gave yer man enough chances to just drop it and let the whole thing rest.


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    #65
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    While the old man may (according to that video, which is heavily edited) have started on the protester, I would imagine it is because he found the literature and posters that the protester was displaying both, insulting and offensive.

    Yep i`m with foinse here....

    Lotsa folks rushin in to kick the oul jew for his rantin without knowing what occurred in the lead up to Tommy Donnelan rushin for his Video
    Cam.Maidir le Lisbon - It was rejected by the majority of the Irish people last time around. Do they all have a hidden agenda too?

    Sadly Dlonfep,Lisbon was rejected only by the majority of the Irish electorate who could bother their arse to go along to a 12 hour Polling Booth located close to their residence.....so if Tom D`s "Public Awareness" campaign is to achieve any result he`s probably correct in notching it up a tad...

    I still can`t see why,if Tom D`s anti-Zionism is of such paramount importance he simply does`nt stick with it as the sole plank of his Galway Tent ?

    For example he could "Do" Palestine on a Saturday and then Lisbon on another day thus avoiding any crossover confusion as the native Irish find such complexity rather off-putting.

    As others have already pointed out the best bit of advice came from the American gent with regard do doing onesself favours...sadly his wise counsel was`nt heeded....:cool:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #66
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Lotsa folks rushin in to kick the oul jew for his rantin without knowing what occurred in the lead up to Tommy Donnelan rushin for his Video
    Haven't people gotten terribly sensitive? Imagine that old geezer getting so wound up at someone showing solidarity with a people whose democratically elected leaders have as an objective, the annihilation of his own. :rolleyes:


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    #67
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    I'm going to set up a stall in Galway saying that people should boycott Palestinian goods because Palestinians blow up innocent civilians (in Israel).

    I wonder how long I'll last (will possibly be attacked by the pro Palestinian majority before the guards arrive)


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    #68
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    I'm going to set up a stall in Galway saying that people should boycott Palestinian goods because Palestinians blow up innocent civilians (in Israel).

    I wonder how long I'll last (will possibly be attacked by the pro Palestinian majority before the guards arrive)

    Its actually alreading happening to Gaza btw (actually its more of a full on blockade and in the West Bank, there movement is severly restricted as well), 1.5 million people being brought to the brink of starvation, in a act of collective punishment and all aided and abetted by the US and EU.


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    #69
    OldJay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 943 ✭✭✭OldJay


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    I'm really trying to follow you, but your not making much sense.
    Are you saying that the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity awareness table in Galway these many years, is in reality covertly part of a coordinated No-To-Lisbon movement?
    And it's something to do with Leftist political leanings?
    And what, this is some big conspiracy against us. :eek:

    No, I'm saying that groups such as those which have been mentioned in this thread are openly in cahoots with an anti-Lisbon movement.
    Yes they are 'leftist' and tend to adhere to 'leftist' causes no matter what.
    I'm not saying anything about "conspiracies". None of their allegiance to the No vote is exactly hard to spot. :rolleyes:


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    #70
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    [QUOTE=foinse;61874834
    The protester was acting in contravention of this section:

    Section 7 Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994.

    7.—(1) It shall be an offence for any person in a public place to distribute or display any writing, sign or visible representation which is threatening, abusive, insulting or obscene with intent to provoke a breach of the peace or being reckless as to whether a breach of the peace may be occasioned.
    (2) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £500 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 months or to both.
    [/quote]
    Yer man has had that stall open for a number of years.
    According the law cited, the prosecution would have to show intent to provoke a breach of the peace. Being the case that a number of years and countless members of the public have passed that stall, it is unlikely that he is intending on breaching the peace.


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    #71
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Section 7 Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994.

    Quote:
    7.—(1) It shall be an offence for any person in a public place to distribute or display any writing, sign or visible representation which is threatening, abusive, insulting or obscene with intent to provoke a breach of the peace or being reckless as to whether a breach of the peace may be occasioned.
    RedPlanet wrote: »
    Yer man has had that stall open for a number of years. According the law cited, the prosecution would have to show intent to provoke a breach of the peace. Being the case that a number of years and countless members of the public have passed that stall, it is unlikely that he is intending on breaching the peace.

    You highlighted the wrong part chappy. He was being reckless in engaging with passersby in a manner to anyone with an ounce of impartiality could see was bordering on reckless in that between all the parties involved the tension and aggravation was being racheted up over and over with loud, and aggressive behaviour. The fact that he was arrested, although originally coming under the section above, IMO has less to do with his stall etc and more to do with his interaction with the garda on the scene, and he made his own bed in that regard.


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    #72
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    prinz wrote: »
    You highlighted the wrong part
    Again, the fact that he's been there for several years and countless thousands (millions?) have meandered past without a breach of the peace would indicate the problem is not his stand, but the weirdo that started shouting abuse at him.


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    #73
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    Again, the fact that he's been there for several years and countless thousands (millions?) have meandered past without a breach of the peace would indicate the problem is not his stand, but the weirdo that started shouting abuse at him.

    exactly i am a Galway native and seen the guy on dozen occasions not causing any hassle to anyone, while trying to spread his message

    he got provoked ...


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    #74
    source
    Registered Users Posts: 5,270 ✭✭✭source


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    Again, the fact that he's been there for several years and countless thousands (millions?) have meandered past without a breach of the peace would indicate the problem is not his stand, but the weirdo that started shouting abuse at him.

    millions and thousands of previous passers-by obviously weren't offended by him, however it only takes one person to be offended and to make a complaint, maybe no Israelites had passed this guy previously, I can't say what previous passers-by have felt, but that guy certainly looked offended and insulted by what the protester was saying/displaying.


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    #75
    Kalashnikov_Kid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 642 ✭✭✭Kalashnikov_Kid


    Its getting the thumbs up all round in the Emergency Services forum so the Garda must have done the right thing then :rolleyes:


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    #76
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    Again, the fact that he's been there for several years and countless thousands (millions?) have meandered past without a breach of the peace would indicate the problem is not his stand, but the weirdo that started shouting abuse at him.
    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    exactly i am a Galway native and seen the guy on dozen occasions not causing any hassle to anyone, while trying to spread his message

    he got provoked ...


    That may well be but he was reckless in continuing the breach of the peace. If he had obeyed the lawful request of the garda, he could have his stall back up on the same spot today and no one would be any the wiser. Instead he played a part in causing the breach, he willfully refused lawful instruction, and he committed a breach of the peace IMO solely on the manner in which he communicated with the garda therefore he was within his rights to arrest him, what cause his stall promotes etc. is irrelevant.

    The same situation is evident every day outside the GPO in Dublin with a number of groups, yet they don't rise to argument because they know what the result would be. The gardaí cannot just close down a stall because people object to it. They can however request people to move, desist etc, if that person is willfully engaging with passersby, in the knowledge that a breach of the peace may occur. Which he did.


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    #77
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    foinse wrote: »
    millions and thousands of previous passers-by obviously weren't offended by him, however it only takes one person to be offended and to make a complaint, maybe no Israelites had passed this guy previously, I can't say what previous passers-by have felt, but that guy certainly looked offended and insulted by what the protester was saying/displaying.

    You don't have a right Not-To-Be-Offended.
    If your rather liberal interpretation of the law would be correct, then we'd have basically no political views in public.
    All a YES campaigner would have to do, is to complain about being "offended" by some of the NO literature.
    And vise-versa.


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    #78
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    You don't have a right Not-To-Be-Offended.
    If your rather liberal interpretation of the law would be correct, then we'd have basically no political views in public.
    All a YES campaigner would have to do, is to complain about being "offended" by some of the NO literature.
    And vise-versa.


    You seem to be confusing a ban on presenting a certain 'opinion', and being asked to move along in an effort to diffuse a situation. The garda was not shutting this guy down because of his stall :confused: If he had ignored the people who took issue with his stall on the other hand... there's nothing the garda could do in that situation. I know this as I had a chat with a garda in Dublin related to something similar.


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    #79
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    prinz wrote: »
    You seem to be confusing a ban on presenting a certain 'opinion', and being asked to move along in an effort to diffuse a situation. The garda was not shutting this guy down because of his stall
    Far easier to tell a single tourist to move along, then shutting down a public awareness campaign's table with all the attendent free-speech / civil rights issues that go along with that decision.


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    #80
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    Far easier to tell a single tourist to move along, then shutting down a public awareness campaign's table with all the attendent free-speech / civil rights issues that go along with that decision.

    What free speech / civil rights issues? :confused:. Again you're confusing the issue about why he was arrested, why the garda was requesting he close up shop.


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    #81
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Don’t know what all the fuss is about anyway. There were no losers here. The Jewish folk got their man, the Garda chalked up another arrest and what’s his name has banged himself a nifty propaganda video. Everybody wins!


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    #82
    Raiser
    Registered Users Posts: 4,929 ✭✭✭Raiser


    An Israeli, a Yank and a Piglet?

    - Is this a Joke?


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    #83
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    I think the policeman handled the situation quite well, the protestor wasn't doing himself any favours. Why am I not surprised to see the left-wing pro-Palestine brigade rushing in to defend the protestor? Would they be doing the same thing if he was protesting against Palestinian terrorists?


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    #84
    panda100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭panda100


    Nuggles wrote: »
    Protest if you will, but if you're going to achieve anything protesting, you should try engaging in sensible debate instead of shouting brainless slogans at the public.

    In all fairness to Tommy Donnellan I think the whole point of the stall is to inform,debate and discuss. He also did ask the Israeli man who shouting abuse at him to engage in a civil discussion did he not? How is this shouting Brainless slogans??

    His arrest is ridiculous. This is not a dangerous man . Its actually sickening to think that this is whom the garda choose to arrest when there are so many rapists and real criminals who never get arrested.

    However, I think Tommy should have put his camera down as it would have been intimidating for the American tourist and the others around. Also he made the situation worse by talking over the garda and provoking him almost in places. Does this warrant arrest though? No!


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    #85
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    panda100 wrote: »
    His arrest is ridiculous. This is not a dangerous man . Its actually sickening to think that this is whom the garda choose to arrest when there are so many rapists and real criminals who never get arrested. However, I think Tommy should have put his camera down as it would have been intimidating for the American tourist and the others around. Also he made the situation worse by talking over the garda and provoking him almost in places. Does this warrant arrest though? No![/

    The gardaí don't walk around the country choosing who to arrest. If Tommy had listened to the garda and followed instructions he wouldn't have been arrested.


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    #86
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    prinz wrote: »
    The gardaí don't walk around the country choosing who to arrest. If Tommy had listened to the garda and followed instructions he wouldn't have been arrested.
    The only way he could have avoided arrest was if he had closed his stall.
    It's a free-speech issue.
    The guard (and some posters here) simply don't like the message. (Pro Palestine or No to Lisbon).


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    #87
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Maybe somebody who knows the protester might keep an eye on the case if and when it goes to court and keep us updated. Then we can all find out whether the arrest was lawful or not?

    And in my opinion it was. Everything was done the way foinse pointed out. He wasn't arrested for the protest he was arrested for failing to comply with a garda direction after two complaints were received.

    Maybe if there was an un-edited video we would no better but he may not have been recording constantly which could explain missing parts.

    Finally, the only issue the garda in the video had with the recording was when he was trying to speak to witnesses. If you were a witness giving a garda a statement would you like it recorded and posted online for the whole world to see?


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    #88
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    The only way he could have avoided arrest was if he had closed his stall.
    It's a free-speech issue.
    The guard (and some posters here) simply don't like the message. (Pro Palestine or No to Lisbon).

    :pac: okay, right. So the garda was walking down the street and thought to himself 'I don't like that message - I think I'll arrest him' :pac: This is the kind of attitude that turns people like Tommy into laughing stocks to begin with.


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    #89
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    The only way he could have avoided arrest was if he had closed his stall.
    It's a free-speech issue.
    The guard (and some posters here) simply don't like the message. (Pro Palestine or No to Lisbon).

    Nobody here is disputing the right to freedom of speech. Anybody can protest about whatever they want, abortion, animal testing, lisbon, the EU, the war in Afghanistan, etc. It only becomes an issue if there is a complaint received from a member of the public in which case the Gardai have to act on that complaint. The protesters will usually be directed to pack up and move on which they usually do. If not then then they are committing an offence under Section 8 of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994.


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    #90
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    foreign wrote: »
    Maybe if there was an un-edited video we would no better but he may not have been recording constantly which could explain missing parts.
    If anyone seriously believes that Tommy was shouting obscenities or calling the israeli tourist a "murderer", then you need your head examined.
    Tommy has had that stall there for a number of years and i don't recall ever a fuss being made.
    You obviously aren't giving any credibility to the 2 yanks statements to the gard, that clearly said Tommy was doing absoluetly nothing.
    If you were a witness giving a garda a statement would you like it recorded and posted online for the whole world to see?
    If i were in a public place, on a public road speaking to a gard over a contentious issue, it woudn't surprise me. And i wouldn't believe i had some right to privacy not to be filmed/recorded.


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    #91
    conf101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭conf101


    You can't just baint this in black and white and pin all the blame on any one person. The garda should have dealt with the situation better, and hopefully he looks back on it and thinks the same, but the fact of the matter is that this Tommy Donnellan guy did himself absolutely no favours. He was being downright belligerant and non-cooperative. He was probably right to feel aggrieved at being told to shut down his stand but by acting in the way he did he pretty much left the garda with no choice. I also agree with some posters who said that it probably suited him to get arrested.

    As for the abusive old man. Well it's clear from the video that he was being aggressive and antagonising towards Donnellan but we have no idea what happened in the lead up to that and unless anyone was there when it happened then anything else is just speculation.

    I actually think the garda did well to remain calm but made wrong decisions in how to handle the situation but Donnellan has no-one but himself to blame for getting arrested, it should never have come to that. I mean what the hell did he think he was playing at trying to video the garda talking to the American couple?? I'm sure he's no fool and knew exactly what he was doing!!


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