Suppression of free speech in Galway, Ireland

domrush · 30-08-2009 11:15pm

lads ya must be taking the piss! Has to be said all the protester had to do was back off for 5 minutes and it would have been sorted out. The garda wasn't exactly a saint but he didn't have much choice after giving him several warnings not to point the camera at the garda and tourist. To be fair to the protester I don't think the garda had the right to force him off the to move.

That jew is a ****ing prick though in every way though.

Turner · 30-08-2009 11:17pm

cornbb wrote: »

In fairness the Garda gave him plenty of rope, in the form of a generous number of warnings. If the pro-Isrealis were indeed abusive, at least they had the good sense to move on and not provoke the Garda. It seems to me like the pro-Palestine/cameraman guy was just hoping to get arrested as if it would make him some sort of martyr. He was hysterical, shoving a camera in everyone's face, looking for attention, and he got it.

I'd consider myself a sympathiser with the palestinians but that guy didn't do anyone any favours.

Edit: and to call this a political arrest is ludicrous. Making arrests based on political bias in the establishment is about 20 pay grades above that of the young Garda. If the protestor had had the good sense to know when to shut up he wouldn't have gotten arrested, end of story. Politics don't come into it.

Agreed.

The Garda received a complaint.

The Garda notified the person that what he was doing was causing distress to members of the public and asked him to move on. He explained what would happen if he didnt.

The person failed to move on and basically shouted the garda down (in my opinion trying to get arrested or provoke the garda to lose his temper, which he didnt and fair play to him for not doing so)

He got arrested for breaching the public order act which does not make him guilty of any offence. He is only being accused and will go before a judge who will decide.

I think on indymedia :rolleyes: it said he wasnt charged so i presume he will be summonsed and have a chance to fight his corner in court.

mike65 · 30-08-2009 11:20pm

domrush wrote: »

That jew is a fucking prick though in every way though.

Careful now.

Euro_Kraut · 30-08-2009 11:25pm

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Arnt we forgetting something, the only one in the wrong here was the Jewish couple who LIED to the Garda by telling him he was being abusive to them. Isnt that a crime? Suppose that doesnt matter when you are a blind Zionist.

No that was the initial wrong, not the only one.

johnny1234 · 30-08-2009 11:27pm

It's very easy to side with those in favour that may be wrong. If people learned about the full conflict in this particular piece of the Middle East they might concur to a different opinion. Until the full facts are known, especially refer to those that started the most recent conflict hold off on the personal comments. There is little point in trying to defend those that had losses especially when it was those that started the trouble first.

jpfahy · 30-08-2009 11:36pm

The Garda had no legal power to prevent himself being filmed, no matter how annoying it may have been to him. There was no breach of the peace committed that I could see. No arrest should have taken place, Garda on dodgy ground there I would think. He obviously didn't spend too long at the station, I wonder why?

PomBear · 30-08-2009 11:39pm

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

JUST BECAUSE YOU PUT SOMETHING IN CAPITALS LETTER DOESN'T MAKE IT ANY MORE CONVINCING.

Seriously, it make you come across as slighty hysterical.

Do you think that Tommy Donnellan could have handled this any better? I do. The Guard could not back down when he insisted on videoing everything. If he even had the cop to hand over the camera to someone else things might have calmed down a bit.

I'm saying it to the one or two liner posts saying about the 'annoying protests' not everyone who disagrees. I think he should not be afraid when Gardaí threaten him with arrest like so because one, it probably suited him to be arrested, more controversy etc. Two, it supresses his right to assembly. Three, if the Garda attempts to stop his protest, the demonstrator then has every right to video tape the Garda as he is supressing his right and can be used in evidence against the Garda.

AlekSmart · 31-08-2009 12:15am

I`m not generally a big fan of the rozzers,but fair play to that young Garda for showing great restraint in the face of what looked and sounded to me like Ignorance :rolleyes:

I note that there is a somewhat sudden beginning to the Video footage.

Sure we have the elderly Israeli roarin an shoutin,but there is a strategic amount of footage missing....the beginning of the oul lads rant or perhaps whatever set him off to begin with.

I am also quite unconvinced at all this talk of the oul Jew being "abusive" or "threatening" to this protester,sure he was fortright and forceful in espressing his disagreement but i`m not so sure this activist would feel at all that threatened by a 70+ gent...or maybe not ?

I suppose if it was`nt the Palestinians there would be some other dispossessed downtrodden group to seek support for(the native,Post NAMA Taxpayers of Ireland spring to mind)

The "right" to engage in peaceful protest is generally held to be one of THE great defining aspects of all "Democratic Constitutions" but i`ve become somewhat pink on all that stuff at this stage as it invariably seems to boil down to "activists" roaring at each other before exchanging blows.
Oddly enough,I find that those who espouse pacifism tend to be rather adept at the oul puglism when it comes down to it:D

I note too a bit of self-servery about the follier upper with the two supportive Lads .....
Central Casting....?
At least the second "witness" had the nous to belatedly reveal the fact that HE had not actually witnessed EVERYTHING but happened upon it in mid-act after the dies were cast

Worse still is the end of the clip...with the young man`s offer to put the wronged activist in "touch with his dad".....we are left clinging to the edges of our seats as we await the Court Lists for the Western Circuit.

Perhaps OT,but up to this I was leaning towards Voting NO to Lisbon.....however reading the vid`s background stuff and then listening to this lad has made me a bit wobbly

However until I get to see (and hear) what occurred in the lead up to the Video clip I`ll reserve judgement...How`s that for ecumenical thinking

Nuggles · 31-08-2009 12:21am

I love the editing of the youtube video. Even if I hadn't been on the street when the commotion started and seen that the guy behind the table was disturbing the peace and being an arsehole in general, I would have suspected it having watched the video.

Protest if you will, but if you're going to achieve anything protesting, you should try engaging in sensible debate instead of shouting brainless slogans at the public.

I hate to think what the fella would have said had he heard the idiot teenager that past me say "up Israeli bombers".

_ZeeK_ · 31-08-2009 1:55am

3fullback wrote: »

Breach of the peace... check
Belligerence... check
Failure to comply with Garda instructions... check
A pain in the arse to walk past on Shop St. in general... check

Don't agree with the last point, but thats a matter of personal preference.

Freedom of expression is indeed a fundamental right, important in any democratic society. HOWEVER, it is not an absolute right. It can be subject to other rights, such as public order and morality.

We have to remember that the man was arrested NOT for a peaceful protest, but instead for failing to comply with Garda orders and being belligerent and uncooperative. True, the Garda could have been more tactile in his initial approach, but had the protestor allowed the Garda to conduct his enquiry with the American couple he would not have been arrested and the Garda (we would hope) would have seen sense and realised that it was the Jewish fellow that was causing the animosity and allowed the protest to continue.

Have to agree with the American gentleman who said that the protestor was being "self-defeating".

Kalashnikov_Kid · 31-08-2009 2:02am

_ZeeK_ wrote: »

Don't agree with the last point, but thats a matter of personal preference.

Freedom of expression is indeed a fundamental right, important in any democratic society. HOWEVER, it is not an absolute right. It can be subject to other rights, such as public order and morality.

We have to remember that the man was arrested NOT for a peaceful protest, but instead for failing to comply with Garda orders and being belligerent and uncooperative. True, the Garda could have been more tactile in his initial approach, but had the protestor allowed the Garda to conduct his enquiry with the American couple he would not have been arrested and the Garda (we would hope) would have seen sense and realised that it was the Jewish fellow that was causing the animosity and allowed the protest to continue.

Have to agree with the American gentleman who said that the protestor was being "self-defeating".

I agree that there was a bit of the Rossport in the protester involved, but still doesn't mean the Garda necessarily made the right decision (and I'm not suggesting you imply this, just wanted to mention it). Actually the Garda would probably chalk it down as inexperiece on reflection - he seemed to have cornered himself between a rock and a hard place.

thebman · 31-08-2009 2:25am

johnny1234 wrote: »

It's very easy to side with those in favour that may be wrong. If people learned about the full conflict in this particular piece of the Middle East they might concur to a different opinion. Until the full facts are known, especially refer to those that started the most recent conflict hold off on the personal comments. There is little point in trying to defend those that had losses especially when it was those that started the trouble first.

Who started is really of little importance when two sides retaliate for years as the original point of the conflict usually disappears and it becomes about one upping the other side rather than resolving any conflict or solving any problems.

ScumLord · 31-08-2009 2:27am

Yerman came off as a bit of a self righteous dumbass. I'm not surprised some Israeli would eventually take offence to his posters and message TBH.

The guard shouldn't have told him to move on though, I think he was in the wrong but yerman shot himself in the foot and in the end the guard probably had the right to arrest him based on his reactions.

I've passed that guy on a number of occasions his never gone out of his way to stop people he just sat behind his table spouting uneducated muck.

Chorcai · 31-08-2009 3:05am

At 4.25 he should have followed the Garda's orders. The Garda was talking to a witness, he did come across as a bit of nut job, and as the American guy pointed out he wasn't doing himself any favours. I would like to see 5mins before hand to hear what he said to the two people as the woman alleged.

Am I right in thinking that because this took place in a public area, no one has the right not to be filmed etc ?

On the subject of what he was protesting, I would tend to agree.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/23/obama-jewish-settlements-isreal

"Hardline pro-Israel groups in the US have been confronting President Barack Obama's demands for a halt to settlement expansion by accusing him of promoting the ethnic cleansing of Jews and jeopardising Israel's security."

Also here's something interesting !

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8218564.stm

Israel apartheid?

_ZeeK_ · 31-08-2009 5:25am

public places - generally all's fair with photography and filming (some exceptions with children and the like).

if police were heavy handed in dealing with riots or protests turned violent, we wouldn't want journalists to be not be able to record that, now would we?

raindog.promo · 31-08-2009 6:06am

https://www.indymedia.ie/article/3780?save_prefs=true

OldJay · 31-08-2009 8:53am

Have to laugh at all this 'outrage'.

Left-wing political 'action' groups, such as this fella's, are going to be more visible now simply because they are involved in the 'No' Vote in the Lisbon Treaty referendum. Thats all. They're selling a 'No' vote on emotional blackmail and conveniently tilted views.

Something very sanctimonious and hypocritical about said ilk. If they really gave a stuff about what goes on in Israel and/or Palestine, they'd be camped outside the Israeli Embassy protesting.
I work beside that Embassy and haven't seen anyone there since january.

dlofnep · 31-08-2009 9:05am

Nonsense.

The only person in the wrong here was that Israeli-sympathizer and that Garda. The man had not done anything wrong and was abused and harassed by a member of public. Then they inacurrately reported it to the Gardaí that the man was responsible for harassing them. That man in the beard should have been arrested for a false report.

The man stood his ground and was being removed in the wrong - He had every right to challenge the terrible decision of the Garda.

OldJay · 31-08-2009 9:19am

dlofnep wrote: »

Nonsense

If you don't think there's a connection between the No to Lisbon movement and these 'action' groups then that's not my problem.

Hmmm...I'm looking out the window over at the Embassy and there's still no protestors. Where've they gone?? :eek:

RedPlanet · 31-08-2009 9:25am

Justind wrote: »

If you don't think there's a connection between the No to Lisbon movement and these 'action' groups then that's not my problem.

If you've ever visited Galway you'd know that the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign has been a regular feature of Shop St for a number of years.
Long, long before the Lisbon treaty. :rolleyes:

Justind wrote: »

Hmmm...I'm looking out the window over at the Embassy and there's still no protestors. Where've they gone?? :eek:

Why don't you ask the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign that very question?
http://www.ipsc.ie/
It's a bit pointless repeatedly posting that question here.

dlofnep · 31-08-2009 9:27am

Justind wrote: »

If you don't think there's a connection between the No to Lisbon movement and these 'action' groups then that's not my problem.

I wasn't responding to you.

But there is no correlation between people who oppose the Israeli occupation of Palestine and Lisbon. Two separate issues. What you are doing is using guilt by association to lesson the issue.

This man was highlighting an important issue, where 1000's of innocent people have lost their lives, and 1000's more have been displaced from their homes. A man then lies to the Gardaí in an attempt to suppress the information, and it seemingly works - because based on his lies, the man his arrested.

It's BS and a disgusting abuse of power. If you don't see something wrong with some Johnny randomer lieing to the Gardaí in an attempt to have an innocent man arrested and suppress free speech, then something is seriously wrong.

OldJay · 31-08-2009 9:44am

RedPlanet wrote: »

If you've ever visited Galway you'd know that the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign has been a regular feature of Shop St for a number of years. Long, long before the Lisbon treaty

Yep. There are no alliances between these groups and various others decrying the Lisbon Treaty. Sure, sure. . . :rolleyes:

RedPlanet wrote: »

Why don't you ask the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign that very question?
http://www.ipsc.ie/
It's a bit pointless repeatedly posting that question here.

I think they've enough problems of their own with in-fighting to be bothered with curious questions on why they don't bother protesting anymore.

dlofnep · 31-08-2009 9:49am

Justind wrote: »

Yep. There are no alliances between these groups and various others decrying the Lisbon Treaty. Sure, sure. . . :rolleyes:

It has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Maidir le Lisbon - It was rejected by the majority of the Irish people last time around. Do they all have a hidden agenda too?

Stick to the issue at hand. A blatant lie from the member of public which results in an innocent man arrested for highlighting the plight of the Palestinian people.

Nodin · 31-08-2009 9:51am

Justind wrote: »

Yep. There are no alliances between these groups and various others decrying the Lisbon Treaty. Sure, sure. . .

Its irrelevant. The galway branch has kept a higher public profile than any other for years. What you're dragging lisbon intO this for is beyond me.

RedPlanet · 31-08-2009 9:52am

Justind wrote: »

Yep. There are no alliances between these groups and various others decrying the Lisbon Treaty. Sure, sure. . . :rolleyes:

Israel/Palestine and the Lisbon Treaty are 2 very different topics.
It's possible that members of one are also members of another, but who cares? What is your point?
Are you suggesting that an Israel/Palestine awareness campaign in Galway is in actuality, a No-to-Lisbon campaign in disguise?

Justind wrote: »

I think they've enough problems of their own with in-fighting to be bothered with curious questions on why they don't bother protesting anymore.

I suspect the answer to your question would be that they do, and have done protests outside the Israeli embassy. However the guy that sets up the table in Shop St. in Galway is running a local awareness campaign and there is more foot-traffic on Shop St. in Galway then there is outside the Israeli embassy in Dublin. And besides, i bet the geezer lives in... you guessed it Galway.
:rolleyes:

ukgalwaymcguire · 31-08-2009 10:02am

since i have lived in this country (1 year) i have had my neighbours call racists names to my daughter who is 11 and mixed race, which i reported to the gardi, they did nothing.
i have had in the first 5 weeks of living here, the previous occupant of my house (moved out 18 months before i was even in the country) kick my door off, in a drunken and drug induced state, run round my house with a knife after my children,(2 age 14 and 10 at the time) lucky i am able to get the better of many a adult,(for a woman im tall and large build god knows what he would of done to a smaller lady not prepared to fight a man)) and i threw him down the stairs (he ran up with a knife after my children) the gardi were called, and they took him away , let him out the next morning, left it 6 months to re arrest him with charges by which time he had skipped the country to the U.K, tell me he is also wanted on drug charges (dealing class a) in dublin.

the police in this country are ****e.. they have there priorites a*se about face, and most have the collective intelligence of a ant.
the only reason there is not more crime in ireland is because the people of themselves and nothing to do with the gards or laws.

this is appauling, there was no unbiased collection of information from both sides, and gather evidence of the situtation that had taken place.
the gentleman who was arrested i HOPE he takes the whole thing further, for investigation into police practice, and takes the whole route with full media coverage as the police in this country need a kick up the ar*e as far as human rights, and up holding the law are concerned,
he has my sympathy, and next time im in shop street, i will tell him so.

to the american couple who tried to intervene, and state what actually happened, if you open your mouth over here in ireland and dont have a irish accent, your speaking on deaf ears!!! fact from my own experience and this shows my point!

OldJay · 31-08-2009 10:12am

RedPlanet wrote: »

Are you suggesting that an Israel/Palestine awareness campaign in Galway is in actuality, a No-to-Lisbon campaign in disguise?

No I'm not so no need for the sarcastic pseudo-rhetoricals thanks.
As I said, leftist groups such as these are currently and in a co-ordinated fashion, mobilising for the Lisbon No vote ie. the No to Lisbon movement is using them.
Its that simple.

RedPlanet wrote: »

I suspect the answer to your question would be that they do, and have done protests outside the Israeli embassy

Not enough, it would seem. They haven't been there since January/February. 'Fairweather' protestors?
"What you fightin'?"..."Watchya got?" :rolleyes:
Too busy nipping away at themselves.

Riskymove · 31-08-2009 10:14am

dlofnep wrote: »

Lisbon - It was rejected by the majority of the Irish people last time around.

no it wasn't

source · 31-08-2009 10:23am

Bottom line, the Garda had the right and the legal power to do what he did.

The protester was acting in contravention of this section:

Section 7 Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994.

7.—(1) It shall be an offence for any person in a public place to distribute or display any writing, sign or visible representation which is threatening, abusive, insulting or obscene with intent to provoke a breach of the peace or being reckless as to whether a breach of the peace may be occasioned.
(2) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £500 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 months or to both.

The Garda then issued a direction under Section 8, requiring the protester to leave the area:

Section 8 Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994

8.—(1) Where a member of the Garda Síochána finds a person in a public place and suspects, with reasonable cause, that such person—
( a ) is or has been acting in a manner contrary to the provisions of section 4, 5, 6, 7 or 9, or
( b ) without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, is acting in a manner which consists of loitering in a public place in circumstances, which may include the company of other persons, that give rise to a reasonable apprehension for the safety of persons or the safety of property or for the maintenance of the public peace, the member may direct the person so suspected to do either or both of the following, that is to say:
(i) desist from acting in such a manner, and
(ii) leave immediately the vicinity of the place concerned in a peaceable or orderly manner.
(2) It shall be an offence for any person, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, to fail to comply with a direction given by a member of the Garda Síochána under this section.
(3) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £500 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to both.

Which he refused to do, so the Garda then arrested the protester under Section 24 for failing to comply with his direction under Section 8.

Section 24 Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994

24.—(1) Where a member of the Garda Síochána finds any person committing an offence under a relevant provision, the member may arrest such person without warrant.
(2) Where a member of the Garda Síochána is of the opinion that an offence has been committed under a relevant provision, the member may—
( a ) demand the name and address of any person whom the member suspects, with reasonable cause, has committed, or whom the member finds committing, such an offence, and
( b ) arrest without warrant any such person who fails or refuses to give his name and address when demanded, or gives a name or address which the member has reasonable grounds for believing is false or misleading.
(3) Any person who fails or refuses to give his name and address when demanded by virtue of subsection (2), or gives a name or address when so demanded which is false or misleading, shall be guilty of an offence.
(4) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (3) shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £500 or to a term of imprisonment not exceeding 6 months or to both.
(5) In this section "relevant provision" means section 4, 6, 7, 8, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 or 19.

While the old man may (according to that video, which is heavily edited) have started on the protester, I would imagine it is because he found the literature and posters that the protester was displaying both, insulting and offensive.

irish_bob · 31-08-2009 10:28am

ukgalwaymcguire wrote: »

since i have lived in this country (1 year) i have had my neighbours call racists names to my daughter who is 11 and mixed race, which i reported to the gardi, they did nothing.
i have had in the first 5 weeks of living here, the previous occupant of my house (moved out 18 months before i was even in the country) kick my door off, in a drunken and drug induced state, run round my house with a knife after my children,(2 age 14 and 10 at the time) lucky i am able to get the better of many a adult,(for a woman im tall and large build god knows what he would of done to a smaller lady not prepared to fight a man)) and i threw him down the stairs (he ran up with a knife after my children) the gardi were called, and they took him away , let him out the next morning, left it 6 months to re arrest him with charges by which time he had skipped the country to the U.K, tell me he is also wanted on drug charges (dealing class a) in dublin.

the police in this country are ****e.. they have there priorites a*se about face, and most have the collective intelligence of a ant.
the only reason there is not more crime in ireland is because the people of themselves and nothing to do with the gards or laws.

this is appauling, there was no unbiased collection of information from both sides, and gather evidence of the situtation that had taken place.
the gentleman who was arrested i HOPE he takes the whole thing further, for investigation into police practice, and takes the whole route with full media coverage as the police in this country need a kick up the ar*e as far as human rights, and up holding the law are concerned,
he has my sympathy, and next time im in shop street, i will tell him so.

to the american couple who tried to intervene, and state what actually happened, if you open your mouth over here in ireland and dont have a irish accent, your speaking on deaf ears!!! fact from my own experience and this shows my point!

thier also the highest paid police force in europe

Suppression of free speech in Galway, Ireland

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