Being an Atheist in Ireland is a Cnut

Dave! · 05-04-2009 2:14pm

Sam Vimes wrote: »

The problem there Jakkass is that I have quoted examples of things from religion and you have given me interpretations that completely go against everything I have ever been told on the matter, all the conventional wisdom on the matter, all forms of logic and what appears to be written in front of me, all because, in my opinion, you don't want it to mean what it actually means because that doesn't fit with what you want to be true. For example,

http://bible.cc/2_chronicles/15-13.htm

That is quite clearly our benevolent and loving creator telling us to kill anyone who doesn't believe in him. It is also in direct conflict to the bit about "thou shalt not kill" from Exodus. How do you reconcile that with your idea of a moral god? Or do you agree with it?

Not to mention the 'slavery' discussion... I mean, WOW....

Stercus Accidit · 05-04-2009 2:14pm

shamblertine wrote: »

The difference is, theres plenty of evidence that Jesus existed.

Jesus was a man, thats it.

I'm a man too, big woop.

Zillah · 05-04-2009 2:14pm

shamblertine wrote: »

The difference is, theres plenty of evidence that Jesus existed.

No evidence he had magic powers though.

Elmo wrote: »

I am just stating that as a country we have a drink problem and I think both of those days reflect that as I said this has nothing to do with religion, for me it just happens that both day are traditional religious if tomorrow to government changed the days that a pub closes down from Good Friday to the Friday before the Bank Holiday weekend in May I wouldn't have a problem. I just think it is a good health campaign. Sin É.

Also your not prevent from drinking since most people go to the Offy on Holy Thursday, and well Christmas is only about drinking in this country. I am just suggesting its good to close pubs etc down on two days of the year, I am sure pub employees are happy to have two weekends off.

I see where you're coming from, but I still disagree. Closing down alcohol retailers achieves nothing more than inconvenience and has no justification beyond a religious one.

Sam Vimes · 05-04-2009 2:15pm

Dave! wrote: »

Not to mention the 'slavery' discussion... I mean, WOW....

Oh we've been over this with Jakkass. Slaves in the olden days weren't like slaves we think of. Sure they had to work for no money and weren't allowed go free but they were more like workers, except that they didn't have a choice in the matter but we ignore that bit

philologos · 05-04-2009 2:15pm

Sam Vimes wrote: »

The problem there Jakkass is that I have quoted examples of things from religion and you have given me interpretations that completely go against everything I have ever been told on the matter, all the conventional wisdom on the matter, all forms of logic and what appears to be written in front of me, all because, in my opinion, you don't want it to mean wht it actually means because that doesn't fit with what you want to be true. For example,

Sam, I'm not interested in any debate where you somehow think that you have everything about Christianity sussed out. It's a waste of time, and nothing will be gleaned from it.

Interpretations that you have been told where and by who? Those two questions are crucially important. Just because I have a different viewpoint to others doesn't mean I should be automatically deemed in error?

As for all forms of logic, I really think this is absurd. I explained everything clearly to you in that thread. You are without excuse in that regard. However let's not derail this thread. Please PM me if you have any more issues.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

That is quite clearly our benevolent and loving creator telling us to kill anyone who doesn't believe in him. It is also in direct conflict to the bit about "thou shalt not kill" from Exodus. How do you reconcile that with your idea of a moral god? Or do you agree with it?

I've told you, I won't be dealing with your posts here. I believe you'll find it's referring to murder in the passage in Exodus 20. Murder = unlawful killing.

It's unfair to the OP to get into a theological discussion in the middle of this thread.

Dudess · 05-04-2009 2:16pm

bigeasyeah wrote: »

No it isnt.

This forum's name may not be Atheism & Agnosticism but a debate on atheism seems to be rumbling along here just fine.

Stercus Accidit · 05-04-2009 2:16pm

Zillah wrote: »

No evidence he had magic powers though.

I've been wondering lately if he just ran a vineyard...

Zillah wrote: »

Closing down alcohol retailers achieves nothing more than inconvenience and has no justification beyond a religious one.

If one of the less popular religions had days where we couldn't legally buy pork, people would be up in arms, regardless of whether having one less breakfast roll would be good for you.

Elmo · 05-04-2009 2:17pm

Zillah wrote: »

I see where you're coming from, but I still disagree. Closing down alcohol retailers achieves nothing more than inconvenience and has no justification beyond a religious one.

Mine is a health awareness campaign

I think that is justification enough TBH. We binge drink far too much in the country. Cheaper then most health campaigns. IMO.

philologos · 05-04-2009 2:17pm

Dave! wrote: »

Not to mention the 'slavery' discussion... I mean, WOW....

Wow, I disagreed with you, and provided textual evidence to back up my view that the slavery of the Torah is not comparable to the preconceptions of people concerning it today.

Just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean that I'm clinically insane or something.

anonymous_joe · 05-04-2009 2:18pm

One thing I've noticed in recent years is the number of people I know who've 'discovered' atheism, and are more fervent than born-again Christians.

I don't give a fúck what they do or don't believe, and yet they preach to everyone constantly.

Most old people in this country were raised in a very Catholic country, and not really encouraged to question any of the church's values. I went to a ludicrously religious school, and yet, despite all that, it was some of the priests who were encouraged us to question religion more than anything else, even acknowledging flaws etc in their own religion.

Such an approach is relatively recent though, and it's no wonder older people aren't as accepting of atheism, agnosticism, etc.

Dudess · 05-04-2009 2:19pm

dublinario wrote: »

He's right. A "JESUS WOZ ERE" scrawled on a freshly unearthed temple wall in Bethlehem was recently carbon-dated to 15 AD.

Yeah, I read recently about a "Jesus luvz Mary Magdalene 4-eva" sighting...

shamblertine · 05-04-2009 2:19pm

Zillah wrote: »

No evidence he had magic powers though.

There is evidence he performed miracles and evidence of the resurrection

Elmo · 05-04-2009 2:19pm

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

If one of the less popular religions had days where we couldn't legally buy pork, people would be up in arms, regardless of whether having one less breakfast roll would be good for you.

Well that would be everyday. I know pork can be bad for you but I don't think it is as bad as Alcohol. We wouldn't be able to eat crickets either

05-04-2009 2:20pm

bigeasyeah wrote: »

No it isnt.

how else will we get regular peoples opinions if the debate is held in a specific forum where only people with strong views on the subject visit.

Zillah · 05-04-2009 2:20pm

Elmo wrote: »

Mine is a health awareness campaign I think that is justification enough TBH. We binge drink far too much in the country. Cheaper then most health campaigns. IMO.

Would you also have days where we close down all shops that sell fattening foods? Cigarettes? No high-sugar products day? Where do you draw the line? I draw it at the very start; my health is my concern, not the government's.

Zillah · 05-04-2009 2:21pm

shamblertine wrote: »

There is evidence he performed miracles and evidence of the resurrection

Is there any evidence other than anonymous texts?

(Because I'll tell you right now, I saw Thor ten minutes ago and he said that anonymous testimony is unreliable)

Stercus Accidit · 05-04-2009 2:21pm

shamblertine wrote: »

There is evidence he performed miracles and evidence of the resurrection

Provide this 'evidence' then.

Bearing in mind rambling inconsistent texts thousands of years old may come under more scrutiny than you think.

edit: Zillah in like a shot

bigeasyeah · 05-04-2009 2:22pm

Dudess wrote: »

This forum's name may not be Atheism & Agnosticism but a debate on atheism seems to be rumbling along here just fine.

Oh yeah its rumbling on just fine but you know,to me it just seems a waste of space.Thats all.

05-04-2009 2:23pm

You think atheists are treated badly in Ireland, wait till you get to HELL

Elmo · 05-04-2009 2:23pm

Zillah wrote: »

Would you also have days where we close down all shops that sell fattening foods? Cigarettes? No high-sugar products day? Where do you draw the line? I draw it at the very start; my health is my concern, not the government's.

I suggest that you go Private so and get some insurance, because my taxes don't want to foot the bill for your Liver transplant. BTW I agree with the ban of smoking in pubs.

I agree with free health care too. Interesting. But of the topic.

Sam Vimes · 05-04-2009 2:23pm

Jakkass wrote: »

Sam, I'm not interested in any debate where you somehow think that you have everything about Christianity sussed out. It's a waste of time, and nothing will be gleaned from it.

And I'm not interested in a debate where you think you have everything about Christianity sussed out either. Your interpretation of Christianity is just that, an interpretation, and is very different to most interpretations I've seen before

Jakkass wrote: »

Interpretations that you have been told where and by who? Those two questions are crucially important. Just because I have a different viewpoint to others doesn't mean I should be automatically deemed in error?

Interpretation I have got from living in a Christian country my entire life. Interpretations I have got from seeing how Christianity works in practice, and yes, reading relevant parts of the bible to see if claims that were being made were true.

Jakkass wrote: »

As for all forms of logic, I really think this is absurd. I explained everything clearly to you in that thread. You are without excuse in that regard. However let's not derail this thread. Please PM me if you have any more issues.

Ok, I retract that. Not all forms of logic, bad logic is a form of logic. Logic such as the fact that Sodom probably existed being evidence for God. It's not at all. It's a form of logic with a gaping hole in the centre that you have to jump across to come to that conclusion

Jakkass wrote: »

I've told you, I won't be dealing with your posts here. I believe you'll find it's referring to murder in the passage in Exodus 20. Murder = unlawful killing.

It's unfair to the OP to get into a theological discussion in the middle of this thread.

It's already a theological discussion and has been since the OP so you probably should respond here.

Is killing someone who doesn't believe in God not unlawful killing? By your holy law could you kill me? And if so, can you reconcile that concept with the idea of a moral god?

shamblertine · 05-04-2009 2:24pm

Zillah wrote: »

Is there any evidence other than anonymous texts?

(Because I'll tell you right now, I saw Thor ten minutes ago and he said that anonymous testimony is unreliable)

Theres the only evidence which was possible at that time- first hand accounts, and acknowledgements by other religions that he existed. Obviously theres not going to be videos of it on youtube :rolleyes:

MagicMarker · 05-04-2009 2:26pm

shamblertine wrote: »

Theres the only evidence which was possible at that time- first hand accounts, and acknowledgements by other religions that he existed. Obviously theres not going to be videos of it on youtube :rolleyes:

That's not evidence.

Zillah · 05-04-2009 2:27pm

Elmo wrote: »

I suggest that you go Private so and get some insurance, because my taxes don't want to foot the bill for your Liver transplant. BTW I agree with the ban of smoking in pubs.

I agree with free health care too. Interesting. But of the topic.

Yeah and I don't like paying for the treatment fat people require either but I'll still pay taxes because that's how social welfare works.

I also notice you didn't respond to my questions about all the other health days we should institute.

Sam Vimes · 05-04-2009 2:27pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

That's not evidence.

And even if it was evidence of his existence, it's not evidence of his divinity

Sam Vimes · 05-04-2009 2:33pm

Jakkass, I'd also like an answer to a question that you didn't answer before. Can you give me a logical reason why one would choose Christianity over the other thousands of religions which have as much historical evidence to back them up.

If I was to switch to theism tomorrow, why would I choose Christianity over all the others?

And which branch of Christianity should I choose and why?

philologos · 05-04-2009 2:34pm

Sam, I'm not going to have a theological discussion here. As for me thinking I have Christianity completely sussed out, I don't. I think I have a relatively good knowledge of it.

Also as for you being raised in a Christian country? Was I not raised here also? How does my interpretation differ? Or is it a denominational bias I have do you think?

As for what denomination you pick. It's irrelevant. If you come to faith in God, through reading the Scriptures, try out a few churches, ask the pastors questions, pray to God about which church would be best for you. I don't think denominations are all that important, but it is important that you find a comfortable group of people to worship with and who you could see becoming your friends.

I consider the Christian Union at my university to be a group of people like this too, although they aren't a church.

Elmo · 05-04-2009 2:35pm

Zillah wrote: »

Would you also have days where we close down all shops that sell fattening foods? Cigarettes? No high-sugar products day? Where do you draw the line? I draw it at the very start; my health is my concern, not the government's.

I had pretty much answered that in a post before that about the Jewish religions rule on Pork products didn't feel the need to restate myself ten times over.

As I said I agree with the smoking ban, and that has nothing to do with religion.

With regards fat people and drug takers etc there are health promotions all over the place for them. This health promotion is two days in the year.

My name is URL · 05-04-2009 2:36pm

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Jakkass, I'd also like an answer to a question that you didn't answer before. Can you give me a logical reason why one would choose Christianity over the other thousands of religions which have as much historical evidence to back them up.

If I was to switch to theism tomorrow, why would I choose Christianity over all the others?

And which branch of Christianity should I choose and why?

Good point. We're all non-believers really, some of us just go 1 religion further

philologos · 05-04-2009 2:38pm

Upward Spiral wrote: »

Good point. We're all non-believers really, some of us just go 1 religion further

Not really. If I don't believe in Thor, I still believe in Christ, so therefore I'm not a non-believer at all.

Sam Vimes · 05-04-2009 2:39pm

Jakkass wrote: »

Sam, I'm not going to have a theological discussion here. As for me thinking I have Christianity completely sussed out, I don't. I think I have a relatively good knowledge of it.

Also as for you being raised in a Christian country? Was I not raised here also? How does my interpretation differ? Or is it a denominational bias I have do you think?

You keep saying you're not going to get into a theological discussion and then you keep making points. Either get into a discussion or don't. You can't keep making your case and then refusing to answer me when I respond. That only adds credence to my idea that you don't care what I say and just want to preach your own beliefs

You asked where I got my interpretations and I told you. I never said anything about where you got yours. One of the main things about yours that differs from what I've heard before is the idea that if there is anything in the old testament that differs to what Jesus taught, we are to take Jesus' version because he essentially overrules it. I've never heard that idea before and it is not practised as far as I have seen

Zillah · 05-04-2009 2:40pm

Elmo wrote: »

I had pretty much answered that in a post before that about this Jewish religious rule on Pork products didn't feel the need to restate myself ten times over.

Ten times over? Let's not be melodramatic. I'll see if I can find your response.

Ah, here it is:

Elmo wrote: »

Well that would be everyday. I know pork can be bad for you but I don't think it is as bad as Alcohol. We wouldn't be able to eat crickets either

You're missing the point. Small amounts of alcohol are not bad for you. Small amounts of pork are not bad for you. Same with sugar. Any of these things in excess are bad for you, however. You're defending a day where no one is allowed to purchase alcohol because we drink too much and it's bad for your health...if that's the real reason then you should also be calling for no sugar days due to rising obesity levels.

As I said I agree with the smoking ban, and that has nothing to do with religion.

Well no, we're not really talking about religion any more, are we? I agree with the smoking ban because everyone deserves a work place that is not detrimental to their health. If there was no such thing as second hand smoke then the smoking ban can kiss my ass.

05-04-2009 2:41pm

bigeasyeah wrote: »

Oh yeah its rumbling on just fine but you know,to me it just seems a waste of space.Thats all.

pro-tip: stop clicking into thread.

Sam Vimes · 05-04-2009 2:41pm

Jakkass wrote: »

Not really. If I don't believe in Thor, I still believe in Christ, so therefore I'm not a non-believer at all.

Well yes you are a non-believer. To quote someone whose name I can't remember:

"I contend that we are both atheists; I just believe in one fewer god than you. When you understand why you reject all other gods, you will understand why I reject yours"

Say for instance there have been 30,000 Gods in human history, I lack belief in 30,000 of them and you lack belief in 29,999 of them. Are we so different?

Elmo · 05-04-2009 2:42pm

Jakkass wrote: »

Not really. If I don't believe in Thor, I still believe in Christ, so therefore I'm not a non-believer at all.

What he is saying is if you believe in Zeus, Thor etc you are a non-believer and vis-a-versa.

However most religions believe in one god, those that don't are considered pagans.

philologos · 05-04-2009 2:43pm

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Well yes you are a non-believer. To quote someone whose name I can't remember:

I believe in God, so even if I do not believe in others, I still believe in God, therefore I am a believer. I don't see how it works.

I don't think it's the role of other individuals to put labels on others anyway

Elmo wrote: »

However most religions believe in one god, those that don't are considered pagans.

I don't think most religions believe in only one God. You'd need to back that up.

Sam Vimes · 05-04-2009 2:46pm

Jakkass wrote: »

I believe in God, so even if I do not believe in others, I still believe in God, therefore I am a believer. I don't see how it works.

Yes and I believe that toast exists which technically makes me a believer too. It all depends on how loosely you define believer. The question is why you disbelieve in all other gods

Elmo · 05-04-2009 2:48pm

Zillah wrote: »

Well no, we're not really talking about religion any more, are we? I agree with the smoking ban because everyone deserves a work place that is not detrimental to their health. If there was no such thing as second hand smoke then the smoking ban can kiss my ass.

I find on this thread many people repeating themselves.

I just think it is good that we have a day or two where pubs are closed. Both for the pub worker and for the general population.

Many schools have introduced a healthy eating policy with relation to chocolate, peanuts and sugar to raise awareness (They ban many products from lunch). It is against the law to be served drink before the age of 18, perhaps we should remove this age limit.

As I said for me this is not a religious issue it is a health issue. I truly believe it is a worthwhile ban. I think it should be rolled out to hotels as well.

Sam Vimes · 05-04-2009 2:49pm

So are you going to answer my question about why God tells us to kill non-believers or are you going to stop posting?

Or are you going to keep preaching your own beliefs while saying that you won't get into a discussion and ignoring responses you can't answer, thereby showing yourself to be exactly the way you accuse atheists of being?

Zillah · 05-04-2009 2:50pm

Elmo wrote: »

With regards fat people and drug takers etc there are health promotions all over the place for them. This health promotion is two days in the year.

Yes but you're not making it illegal to sell sugar to fat people on certain days, are you? But you are defending making it illegal to sell me alcohol on certain days. Your position is inconsistent.

Elmo wrote: »

What he is saying is if you believe in Zeus, Thor etc you are a non-believer and vis-a-versa.

However most religions believe in one god, those that don't are considered pagans.

Basically all I was saying was that the fact that someone claims that something happened should not be taken as evidence that it did happen. You can trust me on this, the God of the Bible just told me that it's true.

It is against the law to be served drink before the age of 18, perhaps we should remove this age limit.

Ok, you appear to be not very good at understanding stuff and I'm getting tired thinking for you so I'm giving up here.

Elmo · 05-04-2009 2:50pm

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't think most religions believe in only one God. You'd need to back that up.

I thought Islam believes in one god, it being a spin off from Christianity. (Could be wrong)

Christians and Jews believe in the same god.

I will look it up for you.

Sam Vimes · 05-04-2009 2:52pm

Elmo wrote: »

I thought Islam believes in one god, it being a spin off from Christianity. (Could be wrong)

Christians and Jews believe in the same god.

I will look it up for you.

You're right, no need to look it up

pablomakaveli · 05-04-2009 2:56pm

FFS.

Looks like the atheists or off another rant.:rolleyes:

Heres a better website for those atheists out their to vent their concerns:

www. nobodyreally givesa****.com

Elmo · 05-04-2009 2:57pm

Zillah wrote: »

Yes but you're not making it illegal to sell sugar to fat people on certain days, are you? But you are defending making it illegal to sell me alcohol on certain days. Your position is inconsistent.

I am not being inconsistent in my position. I think it is a good thing that Alcohol is not served one/two days a year. It is only one small thing each year.

Other food stuffs aren't drugs, alcohol effects so in so many other ways.

Why don't the government up taxes on all products one of the reason for high taxes on cigarettes and drink is that they are bad for you. According to most worse then other substances.

But perhaps sugar is the new alcohol. Don't most foods have sugar in them?

I suppose we should legalize all drugs.

Sam Vimes · 05-04-2009 2:58pm

pablomakaveli wrote: »

FFS.

Looks like the atheists or off another rant.:rolleyes:

Heres a better website for those atheists out their to vent their concerns:

www. nobodyreally givesa****.com

Look, I'm just responding to comments from believers. I didn't start the thread and I didn't start preaching my beliefs, I just responded to comments from others. If you don't want to read it there's a big X on the top right of your screen there

Ass · 05-04-2009 2:58pm

The most hilarious thing about this thread is that most of the Atheists in here fit the Atheist stereotype.

Elmo · 05-04-2009 3:00pm

Sam Vimes wrote: »

You're right, no need to look it up

That the easiest argument I have ever one on boards. Are you sure I am right? :cool:

Ass · 05-04-2009 3:00pm

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Look, I'm just responding to comments from believers. I didn't start the thread and I didn't start preaching my beliefs, I just responded to comments from others. If you don't want to read it there's a big X on the top right of your screen there

MUST POST.

SOMEONE WRONG ON INTERNET.

pablomakaveli · 05-04-2009 3:01pm

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Look, I'm just responding to comments from believers. I didn't start the thread and I didn't start preaching my beliefs, I just responded to comments from others. If you don't want to read it there's a big X on the top right of your screen there

Relax. That was'nt targetted at you specifically.

This is AH where a sense of humour is a bit of a necessity.

Sam Vimes · 05-04-2009 3:01pm

Ass wrote: »

The most hilarious thing about this thread is that most of the Atheists in here fit the Atheist stereotype.

The atheist stereotype being that we force our beliefs on others.

This is a discussion forum. People come here to discuss things. People who believe in God came here to preach their beliefs and I responded to them. That does not mean I'm forcing my beliefs on anyone, it means I'm asking them to defend their beliefs since they decided to state them publicly.

I don't actually have any beliefs to force on anyone and unless you look behind you and see me standing there with a gun to your head forcing you to read then I'm not forcing you now

Being an Atheist in Ireland is a Cnut

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