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Dublin Bus workers threaten strike

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    #122
    Colonel Sanders
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,669 ✭✭✭Colonel Sanders


    meanmachine3 wrote: »
    to answer your question Colonel Sanders ,absolutely nothing. what governs us as bus drivers are two types of agreements. national and local. local agreements dictate how things work in each individual garage. national agreements are for all the garages combined.

    Fair enough. I have often heard of industrial disputes in the workplaces of people I know (mostly in the private sector tbh) where workers try kick up despite the fact management aren't asking them to do anything outside the terms and conditions of their contracts of employment.


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    #123
    MiniD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 371 ✭✭MiniD


    meanmachine3 wrote: »
    most people in here are lamb basting bus drivers for going on strike,maybe your right maybe your wrong. this thread is about the threatened strike. but i'd to mention a few things for those that do lamb baste us to think about.

    do you ever wonder where drivers go to pee when they're stuck out in the middle of nowhere

    most people in here that work have a full break maybe two. last week 1 day
    out of 4 last week i managed to get a full break. yes i could have taken it but then the bus i was driving wouldn't have operated and those that complain here would have been stranded. that happens all the time.

    nothing is hardly mentioned about the abuse we get of passengers.

    without mentioning routes. there would be a bus service if it weasn't for the drivers acting in the public's interest.

    how many of you have sat waiting for another driver to take up the bus your on and what was your worst experience. 10 mins,15 mins. if dublin bus brings these changes in thats what will happen. if the drivers get what they want then you wont be waiting for another driver or be chucked of the bus even though you've still along way to go on that very bus you paid your fare on because there is no relief driver.

    the ordinary public unfortunately are not informed of these things i have mentioned. your only told what dublin bus want you the hear.
    i know i went of the topic but i had to get my point across as a bus driver.

    irishbird i beg to differ, lots of drivers to use public transport to get to work. i use it alot when i can and i'll be using it tomorrow.

    Meanmachine, while your post maybe true, it doesn't really have anything to do the the dispute currently stranding thousands of commuters. Every job has problems, but very few people go on strike because of them.

    Let's keep this strike in perspective. This dispute is not about the length of lunch breaks or where bus drivers go to pee, it's about the operation of a cross-city route where a driver is required to start/finish their journey in the city centre. This is a practice which is in place for every other garage.

    To be fair, I don't think many people here are being too hard on bus drivers, and many posts clearly support the drivers. Unfortunately, when you disrupt thousands of people, they will get annoyed.

    From what I can make out from the Labour Court approval/media coverage, and as Alek has highlighted, drivers and unions and are basing this strike on a verbal arrangement that duties would never have to start or finish in the city centre. If I was a driver, I'd be asking questions of the unions, as to why a proper contract was not put in place when drivers transfered to Harristown.

    What alternative do drivers and unions offer to run the 128 without affecting frequency?
    As I can see, changing drivers in the city means the bus is used more in service and not driving back empty to the depot every time a shift ends.


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    #124
    penexpers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,038 ✭✭✭penexpers


    irishbird wrote: »
    i think it's funny that the bus drivers are not prepared to take public transport to work, like the rest of us

    Alot of them would be getting to work/leaving work at a time when public transport isn't available.


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    #125
    penexpers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,038 ✭✭✭penexpers


    MiniD wrote: »
    Let's keep this strike in perspective. This dispute is not about the length of lunch breaks or where bus drivers go to pee, it's about the operation of a cross-city route where a driver is required to start/finish their journey in the city centre. This is a practice which is in place for every other garage.

    In every other garage, they can do the handover at/near the garage. Harristown is different, because it's out of the way.


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    #126
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,590 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    penexpers wrote:
    Where would they leave their car?

    Where any other commuter who works in the city centre leaves there car.
    penexpers wrote:
    Alot of them would be getting to work/leaving work at a time when public transport isn't available.

    I see three scenarios here:

    1) Starting the first shift in the morning.

    Fair enough no public transport in the morning, so driver needs to drive car to garage to pick up bus.

    Driver finishes up some time mid-day in the city centre and gets PAID to take a bus back to his/her garage to pick up their car.

    2) Starting and finishing the shift during normal operating hours.

    Driver can get public transport into and out of town like the rest of us, without needing to go back to the garage, I don't see any problem with this scenario.

    3) Starting shift mid-day and finishing shift on last bus.

    Need to drive car to garage, take bus (as a passenger) into city centre (PAID for)
    and pick up bus in city centre. Drive bus back to garage at the end of the day and pick up your car.

    Have I any of this wrong?

    To be honest I really don't see what all the fuss is about?


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    #127
    shoegirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭shoegirl


    spareman wrote: »
    Well driver's have to put up with these ridiculas journey times too, and we have to put up with abuse from people who are waiting for the bus that is late because of these ridiculas journey time's, some of which had been agreed 10/15 years ago and have never been reviewed.

    Scratch that. I've an old 41 timetable from circa the late 1980s and the service hasn't changed much since then. I think there's been a net increase of about 7 buses per day.

    Thats about 1 extra bus per day for every 2000 people that moved into the area between 1987 and 2002. Thank you DB, for your years of contempt. No bloody wonder everybody living out there has a car now.


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    #128
    penexpers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,038 ✭✭✭penexpers


    bk wrote: »
    Where any other commuter who works in the city centre leaves there car.



    I see three scenarios here:

    1) Starting the first shift in the morning.

    Fair enough no public transport in the morning, so driver needs to drive car to garage to pick up bus.

    Driver finishes up some time mid-day in the city centre and gets PAID to take a bus back to his/her garage to pick up their car.

    2) Starting and finishing the shift during normal operating hours.

    Driver can get public transport into and out of town like the rest of us, without needing to go back to the garage, I don't see any problem with this scenario.

    3) Starting shift mid-day and finishing shift on last bus.

    Need to drive car to garage, take bus (as a passenger) into city centre (PAID for)
    and pick up bus in city centre. Drive bus back to garage at the end of the day and pick up your car.

    Have I any of this wrong?

    To be honest I really don't see what all the fuss is about?

    The problem here is that it's forced overtime and they only have an allowance of 46 minutes to get back to the garage. I'm not sure if it's possible in the traffic that's around Dublin.


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    #129
    meanmachine3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 551 ✭✭✭meanmachine3


    ok your right. i'll take number (2) driver starts in town but may finish in garage,still needs their car. i'll try and explain in lay mans terms again.
    bus driver parks his car in garage but starts in town. he's given 30 mins to get into town ( thats if they are given that time), they are due to start at 12.30pm taking up from another bus full of passengers, he leaves the garage at 12.00. but because of traffic is heavy it could take an hour to get to town.
    on the other case if he leaves the garage at 11.30 everyday he's working 2.5 hours a week for nothing.
    as the saying goes if it's not broken dont fix it. these are the only 2 routes in harristown that will have to break in the city. no other route based in harristown has ever had to break in the city ,so why change things now.

    someone asked about the 6 month review. there are agreements in writing where schedules are meant to be reviwed after 6 months if they are not working. 9 times out of 10 these reviews never take place.

    it's in everyone interest including you as the travellling public that these routes start/break and finish in the garage. please read my post at 12.53 with the paragraph "how many of you have sat waiting etc"


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    #130
    MiniD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 371 ✭✭MiniD


    The only difference I can see is that the driver would be not be driving an empty bus back to Harristown, but would be a passenger on a different bus. It may take a bit longer, but they are being paid. I would presume these shifts would be starting or finishing outside peak hours, so it's not like a driver would be traveling to Harristown at 5pm.

    Many people park their cars outside the city and use public transport to complete their journey. There are park and ride facilities at many points throughout the city. At least these drivers have paid parking and free travel to/from the city.

    At this stage, Dublin Bus should just move these 2 routes to Phibsobro or Broadstone and have them operate from there. Problem solved.


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    #131
    MiniD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 371 ✭✭MiniD


    meanmachine3 wrote: »
    no other route based in harristown has ever had to break in the city ,so why change things now.

    The 128 route is a completely different type of route to what Harristown has operated previously. Do you understand the logistics of operating a cross city service?
    How do you propose doing it differently, rather than changing driver in the City Centre?


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    #132
    penexpers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,038 ✭✭✭penexpers


    MiniD wrote: »
    The 128 route is a completely different type of route to what Harristown has operated previously. Do you understand the logistics of operating a cross city service?
    How do you propose doing it differently, rather than changing driver in the City Centre?

    I think DB drivers are blue in the face from telling people that it's not about where they take their breaks. It's about where they start/finish their shift.

    In the case of the 128, I think that it's close enough to Harristown that for a changeover they could do it at Harristown garage?


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    #133
    MiniD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 371 ✭✭MiniD


    penexpers wrote: »
    In the case of the 128, I think that it's close enough to Harristown that for a changeover they could do it at Harristown garage?

    Surely, in the case of the 128, it would mean a bus being out of service for at least 30 minutes, while it drives empty from Clongriffin to Harristown. If every bus was to do this, it would have a serious impact on the 10 minutes frequency.


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    #134
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,262 ✭✭✭markpb


    Wouldn't drivers being delayed getting from Harristown to the city centre have the same impact on service levels? All depends on the amount of time they're give to travel between those points of course.

    Is it not possible for the driver to start his shift wherever the changeover is meant to happen?


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    #135
    penexpers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,038 ✭✭✭penexpers


    Where does the 4 route currently switch over? If it's in Harristown then this wouldn't be any different to having the 128 route switch over in Harristown.


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    #136
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,262 ✭✭✭markpb


    It switches over in Harristown because the old route terminated just south of there, it only took 5 minutes to go up and down again.


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    #137
    sharkman
    Registered Users, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 6,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭sharkman


    Will the strike still be on tomorrow ??


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    #138
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,590 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    penexpers wrote:
    The problem here is that it's forced overtime and they only have an allowance of 46 minutes to get back to the garage. I'm not sure if it's possible in the traffic that's around Dublin.
    meanmachine3 wrote:
    bus driver parks his car in garage but starts in town. he's given 30 mins to get into town ( thats if they are given that time), they are due to start at 12.30pm taking up from another bus full of passengers, he leaves the garage at 12.00. but because of traffic is heavy it could take an hour to get to town.
    on the other case if he leaves the garage at 11.30 everyday he's working 2.5 hours a week for nothing.

    So this is basically all because some drivers need to commute a little longer!!!

    Welcome to the real world, many people spend 2 - 3 hours a day commuting to and from their place of work and they don't get paid anything for it. You are complaining because you don't think that the 48 minutes PAID commute time mightn't be enough, that you might have to sped a little extra time commuting!!!

    I'm sorry but that is absolutely ridiculous.


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    #139
    dub_commuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭dub_commuter


    bk wrote: »
    So this is basically all because some drivers need to commute a little longer!!!

    Welcome to the real world, many people spend 2 - 3 hours a day commuting to and from their place of work and they don't get paid anything for it. You are complaining because you don't think that the 48 minutes PAID commute time mightn't be enough, that you might have to sped a little extra time commuting!!!

    I'm sorry but that is absolutely ridiculous.

    At the risk of going over old ground. When you finish your job, at your designated hour you go home correct? Straight home? You do not have to go to your companies head office at the other side of the city before you go home? Correct? Good

    What happens is these Dublin Bus drivers will finish at finish time in the City, then will have to head back to Harristown to pick up their cars or take the bus back before they can even start to head home. So when they are finishing they do not head home, they have to report to HQ first which they are not paid to do.

    Think of it this way. Before you start your job you must be at your work place an hour before the start time to pick something up even though you are not paid for this hour. After your shift finishes, you must head back to head office to drop the same thing back before you can start heading home. You are not paid for this either and when you head home you may or may not have to head back exactly the same way you came to drop the thing back in the first place.

    Comparing it with normal commuting is totally flawed, because the commuter story involves going straight home, which is what these bus drivers do now, after the change, they will not go straight home, it will also lead to a more unreliable and hard to keep to timetable.


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    #140
    MOH
    Registered Users Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭MOH


    dub_commuter wrote: »
    At the risk of going over old ground. When you finish your job, at your designated hour you go home correct?

    Eh, no. Lots of people don't. I've known plenty of people in IT over the last ten years who regularly have to work hours of unpaid overtime to resolve problems.

    Plus no-one is forcing drivers to travel to the depot. They might want to park their cars there to avoid having to face the traffic everyone deals with everyday, but that's their choice. They're effectively being asked to commute to the city centre instead of Harristown.

    They've taken it to the Labour Court, which has found against them, so now it's toys out of the pram time. And of course they're trying to dress it up as being partly for the good of the passenger, while an all-out strike will cause far more disruption to the customer than a change in shift practice of a few routes.


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    #141
    meanmachine3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 551 ✭✭✭meanmachine3


    "At the risk of going over old ground. When you finish your job, at your designated hour you go home correct? Straight home? You do not have to go to your companies head office at the other side of the city before you go home? Correct? Good

    What happens is these Dublin Bus drivers will finish at finish time in the City, then will have to head back to Harristown to pick up their cars or take the bus back before they can even start to head home. So when they are finishing they do not head home, they have to report to HQ first which they are not paid to do".
    from dub_commuter

    dub_commuter you've hit this one bang on. most people driving to and from work only have to make 1 journey home. they leave office get into car and drive home. drivers finishing in town will have to make 2 journeys. get of bus and get another bus back to the garage (journey 1) get their car and drive home (journey 2 ).

    in order for the first buses to operate drivers must use their cars to get to harristown to take the first buses out. we dont have a choce on this.
    most bus drivers start their early shifts while most of you are still turning over in your sleep.

    again i have to say this.
    yes some drivers would be finishing in town at peak times ,sometimes around the 6pm mark or thereabouts. this is a fact


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    #142
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,262 ✭✭✭markpb


    MOH wrote: »
    Plus no-one is forcing drivers to travel to the depot. They might want to park their cars there to avoid having to face the traffic everyone deals with everyday, but that's their choice.

    Is it not that drivers have to start their shift at the depot to clock in?


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    #143
    meanmachine3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 551 ✭✭✭meanmachine3


    if we dont drive our cars to the depots in the mornings then you dont have a bus service. with no buses running at 4-5 am someone please tell me how on earth do we get to our garages. it's plain and simple


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    #144
    My name is Mud
    Registered Users Posts: 647 ✭✭✭My name is Mud


    The bus drivers should bring up the poor "verbal arrangement" with the unions, and not hold the commuting public to ransom.

    They wont gain any support otherwise...

    ...why not refuse to take fares on the disputed routes instead?

    Pardon my ignorance, but do the majority of the drivers based out of the Harristown garage not live in the locale of the garage itself, as that was the reason for transferring there?

    If so, does that mean they are being paid for commuting also, i.e. finish shift in city centre, go back to Harristown (which they get paid for), clock out, go home?


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    #145
    MiniD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 371 ✭✭MiniD


    You're making it sound like drivers having to go back to the depot is something extra. They are being paid for this. It is part of their working day. If you were driving an empty bus back to Harristown for 45 minutes you wouldn't be complaining, but because you have to travel on public transport, somehow it becomes a problem. I fail to see the issue here.

    A driver can clock out in town if they wish, there is a facility for this just off O'Connell Street. If they choose to travel back to Harristown, they are paid for this too.

    The 128 is a cross city route from Clongriffin to Rathmines. If every driver was to drive their bus back to the garage, it would seriously disrupt the timetable.


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    #146
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    They are being paid for this. It is part of their working day. If you were driving an empty bus back to Harristown for 45 minutes you wouldn't be complaining, but because you have to travel on public transport, somehow it becomes a problem. I fail to see the issue here.

    However the guy on the radio said that the time allowed to go back to Harristown was 15-20 minutes less than the timetabled journey time of the only bus that goes there!


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    #147
    meanmachine3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 551 ✭✭✭meanmachine3


    miniD can i ask if you were a driver for dublin bus?


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    #148
    MiniD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 371 ✭✭MiniD


    meanmachine3 wrote: »
    miniD can i ask if you were a driver for dublin bus?

    No, just a passenger with a keen interest in public transport.


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    #149
    dub_commuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭dub_commuter


    This really is getting boring now, at the risk of repeating myself again,, Harristown's routes seem much more reliable than other garages in a lot of peoples eyes. Why do you think this might be?

    Is it becasue they do not stand waiting on Parnell Square for 10 minutes for a driver to turn up perhaps because it happens at the garage. As said previously I used to use a route which was operated elsewhere, when it switched to Harristown it's reliablilty improved greatly.

    Also what happens at Harristown if buses are delayed back to the garage is a bus that is there, is due for a later duty, will go out doing the earlier ones duty and the later one will do the later duty. If they swap this round to the city centre it's much harder to recover a failed service, more capacity you may argue but it would be at the expense of a reliable service.

    There is one particular route that has had a lot of extra non timetabled services by Harristown which is only made possible by the start and finish areas. The only reason the extras are required is because that Dublin Bus will not allow them to increase their timetable.


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    #150
    MOH
    Registered Users Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭MOH


    dub_commuter wrote: »
    This really is getting boring now, at the risk of repeating myself again,, Harristown's routes seem much more reliable than other garages in a lot of peoples eyes. Why do you think this might be?

    I used to use the 27B regularly from fairly near Harristown. I certainly never found it reliable - often ended up getting taxi instead.


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    #151
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,262 ✭✭✭markpb


    I use the 27B right now from Oscar Tray and find that, crazy timetabling in the morning aside, I can usually set my clock by it. In almost two years, it has only failed to run twice and one of those was because of a breakdown.


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