Supplements under investigation

slumped wrote: »

IMB looked at Lipotrim and did not find it to contain anything it shouldnt.

JM MARCONI wrote: »

I was just at The Square earlier and Holland & Barrett have a poster in the window and a petition you can sign regarding this matter.

Dragan wrote: »

Come on guys, the world is run by the pharmaceutical companies. Have you ever seen Pfizer Whey????

hardtrainer wrote: »

Firstly, RDA levels are defined as "the average daily dietary intake level that is sufficient to meet the nutrient requirements of nearly all (approximately 98 percent) healthy individuals".

They are not minimum levels, nor are they maximum. The problem with RDAs is that they're very subjective and vary according to which body has set them. The point of the directive is to harmonise these across the EU.

The IMB is taking issue with the fact that many of the supplements openly sold contain substances which are classed as medicines. This point is not about making more money by allowing pharmaceutical companies to sell more vitamins, they have a genuine concern about dosing problems. (Who remembers when you could buy fatburners containing ephedra OTC??)

Again, what this comes down to is the misconception among the public that there is a distinction between medicines (drugs) and naturally occuring herbal remedies. What people don't realise is that many drugs are just purified forms of naturally occuring compounds from plants. The fact that they are naturally occuring doesn't mean that they don't have the potential to do harm. The IMB and the EU directive want to control these substances, not for the purposes of making money, but because there is currently no regulation in this area. Whereas a synthesized drug has a very tightly controlled production system that regulates the exact amount of an active ingredient present in the final pill, 'natural' herbal pills can vary greatly not just in the concentration of the active ingredient, but also the number and concentration of other naturally occuring, but biologically active compounds, which are found in any particular plant.

From a scienitific perspective, I can attest that many plants contain compounds which can profoundly alter body and (more worryingly) brain chemistry. Taking unregulated amounts of these compounds, in the form of some herbal extract, which lacks the stringent production and QC criteria that medicines are subject to, can be quite dangerous.

Where is the money going to come from to go through the testing of all of these products? Well, simply put, there is no money for that, so the easy solution for them is to ban the substances, or at least classify them as prescription only. This has happened many times already, St Johnswort for example. You can still buy that in Germany, but not in Ireland. Ironically, in Ireland you can freely buy codeine (in the form of Solpadeine) OTC from any pharmacy. Apart from the UK, no other country allows this to be sold without prescription. Addiction to solpadeine is a very real problem both here and in the UK.

I think the most irritating thing about the EU directive, is that it is not open to debate, so we, the consumer, are getting no choice in whether we can continue to buy high dose vitamins and minerals and many, arguably useless (or at least harmless) herbal supplements.

The other thing is that there is little convincing evidence to suggest that high dose vitamin supplementation is of any use. There have been a number of papers published this year which suggest the opposite in fact, that high dose vits are potentially damaging to our health. The few studies that have been done with enough power to make inferences (i.e. great enough numbers of participants, double blind and in a clinical setting) have all used chronically ill patients for the really high doses (e.g. studies of high dose Vit E supplementation and cardiac disease/cancer) and even then, they found that the supplementation had no significant effect. Of course it's hard to really take much from these studies as chronically ill patients are not the best model for healthy adults. It's difficult to get ethical approval for a study involving high doses of vit/mineral supplements in healthy people. Sure, LD50 tests have been done to determine the lethal dose of all of these (in animals at least) but such results do not always translate well to other species (think of Thalidomide).

Even the whole Vitamin C debate is still that, a debate, there is some evidence to suggest it helps the immune system, but equally there is evidence to suggest that it is not effective. What people often neglect to think of though, is the potential interactions between whatever 'herbal', 'natural' or merely vitamin supplements they are taking and more traditional drugs and medicines, including antidepressants, contraceptive pill, NSAIDs, antivirals, antibiotics and more. If you take a herbal supplement in particular, you may be risking some unidentified compound in that herb, which you are not necessarily intent on obtaining, interacting in some adverse way with another compound in your body. I don't mean to sound so sensationalist about that kind of thing, but there are very real risks associated with self medication. It is this that the IMB are concerned with and the issue over dosing in particular that the EU directive is hoping to address.

So, with respect to the ban, the directive hasn't stated whose RDA levels will become the new EU wide standard. It would be nice to have some consultation but then when do the faceless men in Brussels (or in fact in the IMB) ever consult with those who will be affected by their decisions. I also think it would make more sense for them to push for legislation of upper limits (UL) levels for vitamins and minerals. I think that would have more value and would be less cause for concern. However, again this comes down to a matter of research and testing and there are ethical issues involved.

At this stage we can't do very much about it, I'm afraid to say. I think it is important to stress though, that there is little real scientific evidence to support much if any benefit to high doses of any vitamins. If you feel you are benefitting from them, so be it, but you'll be hard pressed to find any doctor/scientist who will categorically tell you that there is benefit to be had from 1000% RDA dosing of vitamins (as is often the case). Thats not to say that it's harmful either.


I realise that this post leaves me sitting firmly on the fence and my ass is sore enough from deadlifts. I just felt it was important to take a balanced look at the issues here, rather than just shout and scream like a child who's had his ice cream taken away.

eroo wrote: »

does anyone what brands have been dubbed 'medicines'??