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Half-baked Republican Presidential Fruitcakes (and fellow confections)

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    #3362
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    recedite wrote: »
    I agree, and just to clarify, I don't believe that any particular ethnic group or any particular socio-economic group is inherently more prone to mental illness than any other.
    Yes, they might be more likely to find themselves at the front line of a battlefield (eg Gurkhas)
    Or they could be more stressed due to being unable to pay the rent or mortgage. But those stresses could be relieved by a change in circumstances, for example a Lotto win. I don't believe that winning the Lotto can be considered a genuine cure for mental illness, therefore anything that can be cured by it, was not a mental illness in the first place.

    Also it is entirely possible for people to subsist on a low income while being healthy and contented. And it is possible to be stressed, suicidal, unhealthy and wealthy at the same time. Having a positive attitude and living within your means is the key. So while the correlation between low income/certain ethnic groups and mental illness may be there, the actual causation is not.

    So the usual bet Mortimor? you could half turn it and say that people with a proclivity to mental illness are likely to stay poor? if someone grows up skirting a diagnosable condition then they are less likely to do well in school or be capable of having or putting lifelong plans into effect.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #3363
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Christy42 wrote: »
    As I said before winning the lotto will not cure anyone. Any damage that has been done from stress has already been done...
    The human mind and body is quite resilient, a change of scene can reverse most of these negative effects over time.
    Of course a person who wins the Lotto is no longer poor, hence the correlation between poverty and poor mental health remains. But my point is that they were not mentally ill because they were poor, it was because of stress, or lack of access to medical facilities, or whatever.

    Long waiting lists in public hospitals, high rents, high mortgage/loan interest rates, high food prices etc... all cease to have any impact on a formerly poor person who has won the lotto. But if these issues are impacting or some peoples mental health, they could be tackled in other ways at a societal level. Simply declaring that poor people are expected to have poor mental health, and prescribing them medication on that basis is not a great solution IMO.


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    #3364
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    In terms of a serious congenital type mental illness, someone can be born like that into a wealthy family just as easily as into a poor family.


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    #3365
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭Christy42


    recedite wrote: »
    The human mind and body is quite resilient, a change of scene can reverse most of these negative effects over time.
    Of course a person who wins the Lotto is no longer poor, hence the correlation between poverty and poor mental health remains. But my point is that they were not mentally ill because they were poor, it was because of stress, or lack of access to medical facilities, or whatever.

    Long waiting lists in public hospitals, high rents, high mortgage/loan interest rates, high food prices etc... all cease to have any impact on a formerly poor person who has won the lotto. But if these issues are impacting or some peoples mental health, they could be tackled in other ways at a societal level. Simply declaring that poor people are expected to have poor mental health, and prescribing them medication on that basis is not a great solution IMO.

    http://news.berkeley.edu/2014/02/11/chronic-stress-predisposes-brain-to-mental-illness/

    Stress causes mental illnesses. I am not saying they should be prescribed medication purely because they are poor.

    Is your point that it is not lack of money but the issued that come with lack of money that causes mental health issues? If so then I agree and we should try and fix the stressers. For instance free medical care would be an example as would good access to mental health services. If you want to get technical it is not a lack of money but how people with a lack of money are treated (especially by the right wing) which causes the issues. Apologies if I misunderstood.


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    #3366
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Christy42 wrote: »
    Is your point that it is not lack of money but the issued that come with lack of money that causes mental health issues? If so then I agree and we should try and fix the stressers. For instance free medical care would be an example as would good access to mental health services. If you want to get technical it is not a lack of money but how people with a lack of money are treated (especially by the right wing) which causes the issues.
    Pretty much, yes. But also I would add that given the same adverse circumstances, two different people can choose to some extent how they would let those circumstances affect them (which might be considered a bit "right wing" of me) and that ability would not be based on whether they were rich or poor.


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    #3367
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭Christy42


    recedite wrote: »
    Pretty much, yes. But also I would add that given the same adverse circumstances, two different people can choose to some extent how they would let those circumstances affect them (which might be considered a bit "right wing" of me) and that ability would not be based on whether they were rich or poor.

    I would say that should require some serious proof. If I smoke I can't pick and choose how it affects me. I fail to see why this would be different.


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    #3368
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Smoking is a physical thing, not a mental illness, and not confined to the poor.
    Take an example, a two weeks stint holidaying in the Bahamas would do wonders for your psychological wellbeing. But if you can't afford that, watching videos of rich celebs frolicing in the Bahamas is a very poor substitute, which is likely to do you more harm than good.

    Getting a bus out of town for a change of scenery and climbing a mountain is very affordable though, or going for a spin on a bike, and these kind of things are very beneficial for mental health. Disabled people have other kinds of options and activities open to them.

    On money troubles, I go with Charles Dickens and Mr Micawber's famous recipe for happiness:
    "Annual income twenty pounds. Annual expenditure nineteen pounds, nineteen shillings, and six pence; result happiness.



    Annual income twenty pounds. Annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six; result misery."


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    #3369
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭Christy42


    recedite wrote: »
    Smoking is a physical thing, not a mental illness, and not confined to the poor.
    Take an example, a two weeks stint holidaying in the Bahamas would do wonders for your psychological wellbeing. But if you can't afford that, watching videos of rich celebs frolicing in the Bahamas is a very poor substitute, which is likely to do you more harm than good.

    Getting a bus out of town for a change of scenery and climbing a mountain is very affordable though, or going for a spin on a bike, and these kind of things are very beneficial for mental health. Disabled people have other kinds of options and activities open to them.

    On money troubles, I go with Charles Dickens and Mr Micawber's famous recipe for happiness:

    A: mental illnesses are great at getting you to do the wrong thing. Being down reduces the energy to go outside or eating healthier. I mean plenty of people who don't have mental issues don't do enough exercise.


    Mental illnesses also have a physical component. Our brains are just chemical and electrical computers. The chemical balance gets knocked out of whack by stress. It can be healed as you say but it is pretty tough when the illness is reinforcing actions that are bad for you. People with depression have a tendency to shut themselves out from friends etc.


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    #3370
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,178 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    There is an awful lot of very generalised rubbish being talked about mental illness here.


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    #3371
    jooksavage
    Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭jooksavage


    looksee wrote: »
    There is an awful lot of very generalised rubbish being talked about mental illness here.

    Anecdotal observation from my psych nurse wife (and i know the last thing we need in a Trump thread is anecdotal evidence) - the overwhelming majority of patients in the units she has worked for 11 years (which range from axis-1 diagnoses such as schizophrenic and depressive disorders through to borderline personality disorders) have been from the lower socioeconomic bracket. In her time as a community nurse, again, most of her work was with people from disadvantaged backgrounds.

    Her explanation is that while some clinical disorders don't discriminate along economic lines, situational disorders certainly do. Also many clinically-diagnosable disorder often aren't addressed in time because of disadvantaged families' reliance on an already-stretched public psych health service. On top of the fact that no mental illness is improved by worries about money or societal status.


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    #3372
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    jooksavage wrote: »
    the overwhelming majority of patients in the units she has worked...
    Is it possible that the particular units she worked in, and the typical homes visited by a community nurse, were typically people who could not afford private healthcare and home visits by private nurses and helpers?

    Some aspects of "situational disorders" and difficult circumstances are more likely to affect disadvantaged people. Others do not discriminate, such as bereavement.


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    #3373
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    recedite wrote: »
    Well it seems that Enda phoned the Donald last night, did the required grovelling, and made sure his rightful invitation to the White House on 17th March was still "good to go".
    The Taoiseach made a swift U-turn on his opinion of the President Elect yesterday, having previously called him “dangerous” and “racist” in the Dáil.
    I'm just saying it was imprudent and unprofessional for the PM of this country to libel the (potentially) next POTUS.
    Its OK for you to do it, you're just a random anonymous internet poster.
    Look to Obama's conduct in the last 24hours for a model of professionalism.
    Poor Enda.... the wriggling and squirming continues....“I’m not into English classes.”
    (Donoghue: “You are a teacher.”)
    “The language that was used on that occasion was in my view not that language that I would use but it was not related to his personality.”
    “You’re rewriting history,” cut in Donoghue before being swiftly cut off by the government press secretary.
    ?width=630&version=3290347 Enda Kenny being questioned ahead of his meeting with Donald Trump tomorrow. Source: Niall Carson


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    #3374
    jooksavage
    Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭jooksavage


    recedite wrote: »
    Is it possible that the particular units she worked in, and the typical homes visited by a community nurse, were typically people who could not afford private healthcare and home visits by private nurses and helpers?


    Not typically, no. She spent most of her career working in an adolescent unit where they saw patients from lots of different backgrounds, including the children of some well known professionals and household names. However, the vast majority of their patients came from and went back to straitened households.


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    #3375
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Probably old news now in the ongoing high-speed traincrash which is the DJT/GOP administration - but, just for the record, DJT, the self-praising master of the deal, failed to persuade his own party, who've been whining about Obamacare for perhaps seven years, to repeal Obamacare. DJT blamed the minority Democrats for the failure.

    A few of DJT's rapidly-changing points of view on Obamacare are documented here:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39388610

    And Paul Ryan, after yanking the vote yesterday afternoon, explained that "doing big things is hard":

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39385007


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    #3376
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,167 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Let's see. The Republican party, having had seven years to moan and whinge about Obamacare and to think about how to amend or replace it, is unable to produce a coherent proposal to amend or replace it that commands support within the Republican party, which is committed to amending or replacing it.

    The result is that no Bill is brought before Congress for consideration, and the Democrats are spared the trouble of voting against it.

    And, in Trumpland, this is all the fault of the Democrats. :rolleyes:


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    #3377
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Let's see. The Republican party, having had seven years to moan and whinge about Obamacare and to think about how to amend or replace it, is unable to produce a coherent proposal to amend or replace it that commands support within the Republican party, which is committed to amending or replacing it.

    The result is that no Bill is brought before Congress for consideration, and the Democrats are spared the trouble of voting against it.

    And, in Trumpland, this is all the fault of the Democrats. :rolleyes:

    Yep, that's it. Evidence of Obama's secret government working against Trump. :pac:


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    #3378
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Let's see. The Republican party, having had seven years to moan and whinge about Obamacare and to think about how to amend or replace it, is unable to produce a coherent proposal to amend or replace it that commands support within the Republican party, which is committed to amending or replacing it.

    The result is that no Bill is brought before Congress for consideration, and the Democrats are spared the trouble of voting against it.

    And, in Trumpland, this is all the fault of the Democrats. :rolleyes:

    I read somewhere they made something like 700 attempts to remove or reduce it.

    MrP


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    #3379
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Let's see. The Republican party, having had seven years to moan and whinge about Obamacare and to think about how to amend or replace it, is unable to produce a coherent proposal to amend or replace it that commands support within the Republican party, which is committed to amending or replacing it.

    The result is that no Bill is brought before Congress for consideration, and the Democrats are spared the trouble of voting against it.

    And, in Trumpland, this is all the fault of the Democrats. :rolleyes:

    oh this has damaged Ryans credibility even more then Trumps for sure


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    #3380
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    BoatMad wrote: »
    oh this has damaged Ryans credibility even more then Trumps for sure

    there is an opinion that Trump has just done to Ryan what he did to Romney :D


    mitt%20romney%20donald%20trump%20dinner.jpg:small

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #3381
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    We knew it would come, and here it is. The War on Coal is at an end. My least favourite Trump policy.


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    #3382
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,728 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    We knew it would come, and here it is. The War on Coal is at an end. My least favourite Trump policy.

    How's that old song go, 'Daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg county' Let the strip mining of middle America recommence!


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    #3383
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    100 days or 6.8% into this idiotic administration and the best one can say is that the USA has not yet descended into widespread disorder. Outside the USA, one gets the feeling that everybody else has simply decided to put their feet up, reach for the popcorn and sit this one out as best they can.

    Here's a good overview from Vox of where DJT/GOP's are at the moment:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u0M4syuNo0


    And here are the Simpsons with their brief review:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qo3fT0xPeHs


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    #3384
    druss
    Registered Users Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭druss


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    "There's nothing in the Bible that talks about retirement. And yet it's been an accepted concept in our culture today. Nowhere does it say, 'Well, he was a good and faithful servant, so he went to the beach.' It doesn't say that anywhere. The example I think of is Noah. How old was Noah when he built the ark? 600. He wasn't like, cashing Social Security checks, he wasn't hanging out, he was working. So, I think we have an obligation to work." - Montana businessman and likely gubernatorial candidate Greg Gianforte

    Perhaps we can compromise on a retirement age of 575?

    And look at Greg go today! International!


    When Greg isn't beating up "liberal" journalists, he also likes to invest some of his ICT earned millions in young earth science stuff.

    Things like the wonderful Glendive Dinosaur and Fossil Museum, which presents the artefacts in their biblical context and hosts scientific seminars.

    I see the Museum charges 1 dollar less entry fee for "Seniors". I hope, in line with Greg's views, they have to produce some ID showing that they have at least 600 years of ark-building behind them. Freeloaders.


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    #3385
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,167 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Election geeks can track the results of the Montana election as they come in on this New York Times results live tracker.

    At the time of posting, Gianforte is shading it 47.2% to 47.1%, but there's just 200 or so votes in it. And only 22% of precincts have reported.


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    #3386
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭Christy42


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Election geeks can track the results of the Montana election as they come in on this New York Times results live tracker.

    At the time of posting, Gianforte is shading it 47.2% to 47.1%, but there's just 200 or so votes in it. And only 22% of precincts have reported.

    Overall it seems to just reinforce the other special elections. No actual seats changing hands but democrats getting far more votes than they were in November. So bodes well for Democrats in that a lot of seats are in play for them to take but they will eventually need to win some (though this one was always unlikely ).

    What is the story with his position and the assault case against Gianforte? I mean it was not the most violent of assaults but the dude did flip out and attack someone over a question. In my mind any crime involving violence-even if it does not lead to injury- is worse than a lot of minor drug offenses. Could he go to jail or what is a likely outcome? He is just a thug.


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    #3387
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,167 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Christy42 wrote: »
    Overall it seems to just reinforce the other special elections. No actual seats changing hands but democrats getting far more votes than they were in November. So bodes well for Democrats in that a lot of seats are in play for them to take but they will eventually need to win some (though this one was always unlikely ).

    What is the story with his position and the assault case against Gianforte? I mean it was not the most violent of assaults but the dude did flip out and attack someone over a question. In my mind any crime involving violence-even if it does not lead to injury- is worse than a lot of minor drug offenses. Could he go to jail or what is a likely outcome? He is just a thug.
    He has been charged with misdemeanour assault, which is the least serious assault charge in the Montana Criminal Code. The sentence could poteentially include a jail term of up to six months or a fine of up to $500 or both, but these are the maximum penalties. From reports it was an assault that didn't inflict any visible injury - no grazes, cuts, bruises etc - and it was short in duration and not premeditated, all of which puts it at the less serious end of the spectrum. And it's (presumably) a first offence and there'll be (I'm guessing) an early guilty plea, apology and offer of restitution. With all that, a custodial sentence seems unlikely. Odds are that it'll be a fine, community supervision, requirement to attend anger management classes, that kind of thing.


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    #3388
    druss
    Registered Users Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭druss


    Gianforte wins Montana
    In his acceptance speech, Gianforte apologized by name to Ben Jacobs, the Guardian reporter who accused the Republican of "body-slamming" him and breaking his glasses.
    "When you make a mistake, you have to own up to it," Gianforte told his supporters at his Election Night rally in Bozeman. "That's the Montana way."

    Guess his campaign people are not from Montana either.

    The front runner's campaign said that Mr Jacobs had initiated the incident by grabbing Mr Gianforte's wrist.

    "It's unfortunate that this aggressive behaviour from a liberal journalist created this scene at our campaign volunteer BBQ," he added.


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    #3389
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    just saw this as people were pointing out the unitintentional causality :D

    DAuil6qUQAAWt5T.jpg

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #3390
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    druss wrote: »
    The front runner's campaign said that Mr Jacobs had initiated the incident by grabbing Mr Gianforte's wrist.
    Whereas Mr Jacobs pointed out that he hadn't grabbed Mr Gianforte's wrist and simply asked him a question. Perhaps body-slamming somebody and then falsifying a justification for it is "Montana way"?

    Anyhow, as this thread shows, Mr Gianforte wouldn't be the first Republican politician to have a troubled relationship with the truth :)


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    #3391
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭Christy42


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    He has been charged with misdemeanour assault, which is the least serious assault charge in the Montana Criminal Code. The sentence could poteentially include a jail term of up to six months or a fine of up to $500 or both, but these are the maximum penalties. From reports it was an assault that didn't inflict any visible injury - no grazes, cuts, bruises etc - and it was short in duration and not premeditated, all of which puts it at the less serious end of the spectrum. And it's (presumably) a first offence and there'll be (I'm guessing) an early guilty plea, apology and offer of restitution. With all that, a custodial sentence seems unlikely. Odds are that it'll be a fine, community supervision, requirement to attend anger management classes, that kind of thing.

    Fair enough. Was unsure given how weird the states are for putting people in jail.


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