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Half-baked Republican Presidential Fruitcakes (and fellow confections)

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    #3332
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,856 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Let's just totally ignore the alt-right's love of such shaming/harassment tactics, like the triple brackets when they find Jews on the Internet, calling someone a "cuck" if they come across anyone to the left of Fred Phelps or more of a feminist than the average Da'esh militant, and of course they're not averse to doxxing either. They're mainly mad about "no-platforming" because they're not the ones who get to implement it on college campuses, and instead have to settle for implementing it on their own little pockets of the Internet.

    Oh, and for the record, if I ever watch a Polanski movie it'd be after pirating it, I don't want to give that scumbag a single cent. ;)

    has anyone lost their job or had to go on TV to apologise for being a "cuck" ? :pac: You should be more familiar with internet culture than me but its a given that its highly irreverent

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #3333
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    Rachel Maddow of MSNBC explores the Trump-Russia connection. Long, but worth watching.

    https://youtu.be/WX8dgbr5EI8


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    #3334
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,866 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    pauldla wrote: »
    Rachel Maddow of MSNBC explores the Trump-Russia connection. Long, but worth watching.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX8dgbr5EI8

    Fixed your link.


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    #3335
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Fixed your link.

    Thanks, I was trying to insert it using the ipad...bested by technology yet again. :pac:


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    #3336
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    pauldla wrote: »
    Rachel Maddow of MSNBC explores the Trump-Russia connection. Long, but worth watching.
    She does a lot of nodding and winking throughout, but what exactly is new there?
    The "king of fertilizer" bought a very expensive house from DJT, but that was well known already. Who did he buy the apartment from, the one for his daughter that set new price records? Nobody cares. It wasn't Trump, therefore it doesn't fit the narrative.

    Cyprus is a popular holiday destination for Russians, and they stash a lot of euros in the bank there. Old news.
    Wilbur Ross, "the bankruptcy king" invested in the bank there. Not surprising. As a billionaire banker, I'm sure he has his finger in a great many pies.

    Deutche Bank fined by Russia, Britain and America for not asking too many questions about rich Russians stashing their cash. Fair enough. I wonder why no EU fines? Is it because the ECB regulators in Frankfurt effectively took over from the German Central Bank (Deutche Bundesbank) in Frankfurt, and they wouldn't like to fine their own? Certainly there are questions to be asked about the bank chairman with "Russian client expertise" who moved from Deutche bank to Bank of Cyprus.
    But those questions should be directed at Angela Merkel and the ECB in Frankfurt, not at Donald Trump.


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    #3337
    Qs
    Registered Users Posts: 579 ✭✭✭Qs




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    #3338
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    DJT/GOP continue their program to "Make America Great Again" by removing medical support for the poorest people in society who are disproportionally prone to mental illness:

    http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/mental-health-support-disappear-under-gop-healthcare-act/

    ...while also removing a law which made it harder for people with mental illnesses to buys guns:

    http://www.thejournal.ie/obama-gun-law-3220416-Feb2017/

    Perhaps DJT/GOP are hoping that the people at the bottom of the heap will just wipe themselves out - after buying some guns of course.


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    #3339
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    robindch wrote: »
    ...while also removing a law which made it harder for people with mental illnesses to buys guns:
    .

    Don't I remember something about Trump et al. going on about how gun violence was about the lack of availability of mental health care rather than about a lack of regulation?


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    #3340
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    robindch wrote: »
    the poorest people in society who are disproportionally prone to mental illness
    An intriguing little factoid.


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    #3341
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    recedite wrote: »
    robindch wrote: »
    the poorest people in society who are disproportionally prone to mental illness
    An intriguing little factoid.
    Glad to help :) There are numerous studies which confirm this finding and a quick google search produces the following which are representative of the current scientific consensus:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21464366
    Sareen J et al wrote:
    Low levels of household income are associated with several lifetime mental disorders and suicide attempts, and a reduction in household income is associated with increased risk for incident mental disorders. Policymakers need to consider optimal methods of intervention for mental disorders and suicidal behavior among low-income individuals.

    http://www.fccmh.org/resources/docs/MentalIllnessandPovery.pdf
    FCCMH wrote:
    There is a strongly negative relationship between socioeconomic status and mental illness (Hudson, 2005) [...] Participants from lower socioeconomic backgrounds had nearly a twofold increase in risk for major depression compared to those from the highest socioeconomic status background independent of childhood sociodemographic factors, family history of mental illness, and adult socioeconomic status (Gilman et al, 2002).


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    #3342
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Ah yes, well not being able to pay your bills would be associated with greater risk of anxiety, depression and suicide alright.

    That's not really what I would call "having a mental illness" though.
    But then I suppose the definitions of what should be included will tend to vary quite a bit, according to the eye of the beholder.


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    #3343
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    recedite wrote: »
    Ah yes, well not being able to pay your bills would be associated with greater risk of anxiety, depression and suicide alright.

    That's not really what I would call "having a mental illness" though.
    But then I suppose the definitions of what should be included will tend to vary quite a bit, according to the eye of the beholder.

    But what about those that do "have a mental illness"? Do you think there are any difference between diagnosis and treatment of actual mental illness between the well-off and the poor in a country where health care is not free at the point of delivery?

    MrP


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    #3344
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,243 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    recedite wrote: »
    Ah yes, well not being able to pay your bills would be associated with greater risk of anxiety, depression and suicide alright.

    That's not really what I would call "having a mental illness" though.
    But then I suppose the definitions of what should be included will tend to vary quite a bit, according to the eye of the beholder.
    Yes. For a Trumpista, anxiety and depression are only mental illnesses when rich people have them.

    Still, who are you going to believe? Recedite, or those schlubs who spent seven years in medical school, and then went on to obtain fellowships in specialisms like psychiatry and clinical psychology?


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    #3345
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    recedite wrote: »
    Ah yes, well not being able to pay your bills would be associated with greater risk of anxiety, depression and suicide alright
    Having limited economic means typically also includes any or all of - existential concerns about job-security/retirement/health, concerns about kids' health/prospects, low education (which is a main correlate of low economic power) leading to ignorance and fear + poor diet + poor exercise, poor sleeping, poor working conditions and poor management, unsanitary and/or dangerous living conditions, prejudice from state and federal agencies and employees, loan-sharking and so on.

    I'm assuming that your mischaracterization of people as disproportionally ill simply because they can't pay their bills is unintentional.


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    #3346
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Yes. For a Trumpista, anxiety and depression are only mental illnesses when rich people have them.
    robindch wrote: »
    I'm assuming that your mischaracterization of people as disproportionally ill simply because they can't pay their bills is unintentional.
    You are both misrepresenting what I said (and somewhat amusingly, in opposite directions).
    I didn't say the wealthy are more prone to genuine mental illness, nor did I say the poor are.

    I am simply saying saying that if winning the Lotto is a cure for mental illness, then it wasn't really mental illness that was the problem in the first place. It was difficult circumstances. I think we can all agree that the poor are disproportionately* afflicted by difficult circumstances, even if we don't necessarily agree about their levels of genuine mental illness being the same.

    *or "disproportionally" as some might say ;)


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    #3347
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,892 ✭✭✭Christy42


    recedite wrote: »
    You are both misrepresenting what I said (and somewhat amusingly, in opposite directions).
    I didn't say the wealthy are more prone to genuine mental illness, nor did I say the poor are.

    I am simply saying saying that if winning the Lotto is a cure for mental illness, then it wasn't really mental illness that was the problem in the first place. It was difficult circumstances. I think we can all agree that the poor are disproportionately* afflicted by difficult circumstances, even if we don't necessarily agree about their levels of genuine mental illness being the same.

    *or "disproportionally" as some might say ;)

    Why? There are many causes of mental illnesses. I doubt once it sets in that winning the lotto is a cure but difficult circumstances put a strain on both the body and the mind. The most extreme is PTSD (which is generally a soldier thing as opposed to a poor thing). However I use it as an example of how mental illnesses can develop due to circumstance. I am aware it is an extreme one in the fact that a single event can cause it while I imagine the strain is more long term issues from stress amongst the less well off but it is the easiest way to demonstrate the point.

    I am also acutely aware that I am not providing studies but it is enough to show that this sort of issue should not be dismissed out of hand.


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    #3348
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Christy42 wrote: »
    The most extreme is PTSD (which is generally a soldier thing as opposed to a poor thing). However I use it as an example of how mental illnesses can develop due to circumstance.
    Well suppose a certain ethnic group were disproportionately represented in the military, would it be fair to say that they were more prone to mental illness than other ethnic groups?
    The reasons for the PTSD would be the traumatic circumstances they found themselves in. Not the person's ethnic group, and not their socio-economic group, despite these things probably contributing to their decision to join the army.

    What we are talking about is a correlation as opposed to causation. So while strictly speaking the statistic saying one ethnic group had a higher incidence of mental illness might be true, it would not be a very "honest" statistic to use.


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    #3349
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,243 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    recedite wrote: »
    You are both misrepresenting what I said (and somewhat amusingly, in opposite directions).
    I didn't say the wealthy are more prone to genuine mental illness, nor did I say the poor are.

    I am simply saying saying that if winning the Lotto is a cure for mental illness, then it wasn't really mental illness that was the problem in the first place . . .
    We're misrepresenting what you said? No, rec, you are; this is the first time you have mentioned the lotto, or the idea that becoming richer cures mental illness. That (ludicrous) notion hasn't come up at all in the discussion to date.

    What you actually said was . . .
    recedite wrote: »
    Ah yes, well not being able to pay your bills would be associated with greater risk of anxiety, depression and suicide alright.

    That's not really what I would call "having a mental illness" though.
    But then I suppose the definitions of what should be included will tend to vary quite a bit, according to the eye of the beholder.
    Not having money is also associated with a greater risk of not being able to eat properly or access safe habitable accommodation and, unsurprising, the poor are at greater risk of malnutrition, respiratory diseases and a variety of other physical complaints. Is that also "not really what you would call having an illness, though"? Or is your dismissive attitude limited to mental health issues?

    What you're saying here is that if poor mental health is exacerbated by difficult life circumstances, it's not really poor mental health. When you say that, you must expect to be dumped on from a height. (Indeed, you must expect people will think you may be trailing your coat, in the hope of being dumped on from a height.)


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    #3350
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,892 ✭✭✭Christy42


    recedite wrote: »
    Well suppose a certain ethnic group were disproportionately represented in the military, would it be fair to say that they were more prone to mental illness than other ethnic groups?
    The reasons for the PTSD would be the traumatic circumstances they found themselves in. Not the person's ethnic group, and not their socio-economic group, despite these things probably contributing to their decision to join the army.

    What we are talking about is a correlation as opposed to causation. So while strictly speaking the statistic saying one ethnic group had a higher incidence of mental illness might be true, it would not be a very "honest" statistic to use.

    The correlation comes from the fact that soldiers are more likely to get PTSD as opposed to ethnic group over represented in the military.

    Being poor in our society causes a lot of stresses that could cause mental illness (I have not seen research on the exact whys but I see no reason to dismiss the figures out of hand). Similarly it would be unfair to say a specific ethnic group had more mental illnesses if more people from that group are poor but it does not appear to be dishonest to say that poor people have a higher incidence rate.

    Being poor appears to be the cause of a fair few stresses so it is not dishonest.


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    #3351
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    OK, to sum up what we have learned from this little conversation;

    If you declare that the poor are prone to mental illness, and back up this assertion with a statistical correlation, you will be lauded as a Great Social Justice Warrior.

    If you declare that a particular ethnic group are prone to mental illness, and back up this assertion with statistical correlation, you will be dumped on from a great height.

    Such is life :)


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    #3352
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,892 ✭✭✭Christy42


    recedite wrote: »
    OK, to sum up what we have learned from this little conversation;

    If you declare that the poor are prone to mental illness, and back up this assertion with a statistical correlation, you will be lauded as a Great Social Justice Warrior.

    If you declare that a particular ethnic group are prone to mental illness, and back up this assertion with statistical correlation, you will be dumped on from a great height.

    Such is life :)

    Wait did I miss a post about you backing up something to do with a particular ethnic group being more prone to mental illness? The example you gave had a specific causation of being in the army. I see no such parallel for the link between mental health and poverty.

    Why do you have any reasoning to dispute the current research suggesting the link between poverty and stressers to mental health. I mean there is a nice pdf from the who half way down this page

    https://www.google.ie/search?q=poor+more+likely.to.get.mental+illness&oq=poor+more+likely.to.get.mental+illness&aqs=chrome..69i57j33.7829j0j4&client=ms-android-h3g-ie&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#xxri=4


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    #3353
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    recedite wrote: »
    OK, to sum up what we have learned from this little conversation;

    If you declare that the poor are prone to mental illness, and back up this assertion with a statistical correlation, you will be lauded as a Great Social Justice Warrior.
    Am I correct in assuming you're referring to my post? Assuming I am, two items spring to mind:

    1. Nobody has "lauded" me as "a Great Social Justice Warrior" except, by implication, you.
    2. Pointing out the correlation between low income and mental illness seems to annoy people with libertarian tendencies.

    I think you need some nice warm tea and a hug :)


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    #3354
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    robindch wrote: »
    Am I correct in assuming you're referring to my post? Assuming I am, two items spring to mind:

    1. Nobody has "lauded" me as "a Great Social Justice Warrior" except, by implication, you.
    2. Pointing out the correlation between low income and mental illness seems to annoy people with libertarian tendencies.

    I think you need some nice warm tea and a hug :)

    Could you perhaps be a Moderate Social Justice Mage, +2 Dexterity with Boots of Leaping?

    (Sorry, nerd humour).


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    #3355
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,240 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I read that as Moderator Social Justice Warrior.


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    #3356
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    I read it as I need to find to an excuse to ban pauldla (I wonder what type of pizza he likes?)


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    #3357
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    Turtwig wrote: »
    I read it as I need to find to an excuse to ban pauldla (I wonder what type of pizza he likes?)

    Oh you know, Turtwig, you know.

    :pac:


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    #3358
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,243 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    recedite wrote: »
    OK, to sum up what we have learned from this little conversation;

    If you declare that the poor are prone to mental illness, and back up this assertion with a statistical correlation, you will be lauded as a Great Social Justice Warrior.

    If you declare that a particular ethnic group are prone to mental illness, and back up this assertion with statistical correlation, you will be dumped on from a great height.

    Such is life :)
    Actually, rec, I think that's what you have learned from the converation you had with yourself in your head.


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    #3359
    Samaris
    Registered Users Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    recedite wrote: »
    OK, to sum up what we have learned from this little conversation;

    If you declare that the poor are prone to mental illness, and back up this assertion with a statistical correlation, you will be lauded as a Great Social Justice Warrior.

    If you declare that a particular ethnic group are prone to mental illness, and back up this assertion with statistical correlation, you will be dumped on from a great height.

    Such is life :)

    Your correlation (and you actually seemed to be arguing for this earlier so I'm not sure why you've apparently switched to the other side) is that soldiers are more likely to end up with trauma leading to mental issues. Reasonable (and provable or disprovable) correlation. But to jump from "more ethnic group A in military. More cases of PTSD in military. Ergo, ethnic group A is more prone to mental health issues" is a false correlation. It's a bit like saying that more soldiers eat MREs than civilians. People who eat MREs (i.e. soldiers) are more prone to get PTSD. Therefore, MREs cause PTSD. There's a statistical correlation!

    Statistics can be easily abused with false logic.


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    #3360
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Samaris wrote: »
    But to jump from "more ethnic group A in military. More cases of PTSD in military. Ergo, ethnic group A is more prone to mental health issues" is a false correlation. It's a bit like saying that more soldiers eat MREs than civilians. People who eat MREs (i.e. soldiers) are more prone to get PTSD. Therefore, MREs cause PTSD. There's a statistical correlation!
    I agree, and just to clarify, I don't believe that any particular ethnic group or any particular socio-economic group is inherently more prone to mental illness than any other.
    Yes, they might be more likely to find themselves at the front line of a battlefield (eg Gurkhas)
    Or they could be more stressed due to being unable to pay the rent or mortgage. But those stresses could be relieved by a change in circumstances, for example a Lotto win. I don't believe that winning the Lotto can be considered a genuine cure for mental illness, therefore anything that can be cured by it, was not a mental illness in the first place.

    Also it is entirely possible for people to subsist on a low income while being healthy and contented. And it is possible to be stressed, suicidal, unhealthy and wealthy at the same time. Having a positive attitude and living within your means is the key. So while the correlation between low income/certain ethnic groups and mental illness may be there, the actual causation is not.


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    #3361
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,892 ✭✭✭Christy42


    recedite wrote: »
    I agree, and just to clarify, I don't believe that any particular ethnic group or any particular socio-economic group is inherently more prone to mental illness than any other.
    Yes, they might be more likely to find themselves at the front line of a battlefield (eg Gurkhas)
    Or they could be more stressed due to being unable to pay the rent or mortgage. But those stresses could be relieved by a change in circumstances, for example a Lotto win. I don't believe that winning the Lotto can be considered a genuine cure for mental illness, therefore anything that can be cured by it, was not a mental illness in the first place.

    Also it is entirely possible for people to subsist on a low income while being healthy and contented. And it is possible to be stressed, suicidal, unhealthy and wealthy at the same time. Having a positive attitude and living within your means is the key. So while the correlation between low income/certain ethnic groups and mental illness may be there, the actual causation is not.

    It is also possible to survive multiple tours and horrible incidents without any long term effects. Does not mean everyone will. Your logic that because it is possible to be poor and mentally healthy that poor people are not more likely to develop mental health issues is incorrect and quite frankly annoying. To begin with no one claimed that the only factor is being poor or that it was an absolute requirement. Think smoking and cancer, many people get cancer without smoking but it is still are cause.

    As I said before winning the lotto will not cure anyone. Any damage that has been done from stress has already been done, you might stop more stress from being added in. Stress has a negative effect on mental health. It makes sense that those under more stress would suffer more.


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