Getting stopped by the guards.

_pure_mule_

(1)Does anyone here know can you video the guards( with your mobile phone) when stopped in you car? I know in America you can but does anyone know if it is legal to do so in Ireland? (2)Also, what would happen if you spoke to a guard in Irish( as it is your right to do so) and they could not understand you? Would or could you be detained, even if you had not broken any laws. (3) Can a guard just make up something and arrest you on reasonable suspiscion? After all how can it be proven in a court of law that they did not have reasonable suspiscion? Thanks in advance guys:)

MagicSean

1. It depends. Usually there is no problem but your phone can be seized if it is evidence of a crime. It will most likely piss the Garda off if you stick a camera in his face so be prepared to deal with the consequences.

2.Most Gardaí will know how to arrest someone in Irish. Once you get to the station an Irish speaker will deal with you.

3. The reasonable suspicion could be challenged in court were the Garda would have to outline it.

nuac

Lookit, I have many years working in the District Courts.

Most Gardaí are just trying to get thru their shift.

Don't try to be smart - real lawyers they respect but hob-lawyers piss them off

_pure_mule_

MagicSean wrote: »

1. It depends. Usually there is no problem but your phone can be seized if it is evidence of a crime. It will most likely piss the Garda off if you stick a camera in his face so be prepared to deal with the consequences.

2.Most Gardaí will know how to arrest someone in Irish. Once you get to the station an Irish speaker will deal with you.

3. The reasonable suspicion could be challenged in court were the Garda would have to outline it.

thanks for your response. But surely you cant be arrested for exercising a right just because the guard is unable to deal with it? Its not an offence speak Irish so how could you be arrested?

MagicSean

I'm gonna guess that this was someone who was stopped for a minor traffic offence and ended up in a cell as a result of thinking they could get off a fine with some derivative of freeman bull****.

i take it your details were demanded and you refused to supply them unless they were demanded in Irish?

_pure_mule_

MagicSean wrote: »

I'm gonna guess that this was someone who was stopped for a minor traffic offence and ended up in a cell as a result of thinking they could get off a fine with some derivative of freeman bull****.

i take it your details were demanded and you refused to supply them unless they were demanded in Irish?

No thats not it at all, Im just curious as to know. I'm not going to try and piss any guards off but I do think it would be quite humerous to speak to a guard in Irish. Anyway its not against the law to piss a guard off is it?

Indricotherium

MagicSean wrote: »

I'm gonna guess that this was someone who was stopped for a minor traffic offence and ended up in a cell as a result of thinking they could get off a fine with some derivative of freeman bull****.

i take it your details were demanded and you refused to supply them unless they were demanded in Irish?

Did the Garda produce his oath?

_pure_mule_

Indricotherium wrote: »

Did the Garda produce his oath?

this didnt happen. It was only an assumption made by the person above me. I was just curious to know the answers to the above questions in the event of a future encounter with the gardai.

tfitzgerald

It's nit against the law to piss a Garda off . But it would be fair foolish

MagicSean

_pure_mule_ wrote: »

No thats not it at all, Im just curious as to know. I'm not going to try and piss any guards off but I do think it would be quite humerous to speak to a guard in Irish. Anyway its not against the law to piss a guard off is it?

No it's not against the law to piss one off but it will often end badly. Gardaí have what's called a power of discretion. This means they can let the small things slide. You will find that their willingness to use this power evaporates in direct proportion to their level of annoyance.

cursai

Indricotherium wrote: »

Did the Garda produce his oath?

What????

CharlieCroker

1. You are allowed to video a guard with your mobile phone but if you're the driver then you're also liable to be prosecuted for holding the phone while in control of a vehicle.

2. A Garda is entitled ( under S.109, Road Traffic Act) to stop a vehicle, and demand that vehicle remain stopped, until such time that he is finished in his duties. (this is generally agreed to be 1 hour)

3. A garda isn't going to arrest you because he can't deal with you in Irish but if you're acting the maggot and being obstructive, then it's a different issue.

Procrastastudy

Pure Mule you are the MAN! Dont bow down! Get into court make sure you have a solicitor, JC, SC and fight it man! Make sure you are heard in Irish. The legal profession needs people like you to keep it going. Fight on man. Just be sure to sell your house and car before you start so you can pay the nice cousel.

Hopefully someone will be having the sh*t kicked out of them somewhere while you mess about annoying the guy who is just trying to do his job. Much better he's arresting you than delaing with serious assults, rapes etc.

nuac

and btw check that the Garda is wearing his/her own hat. Sometimes in leaving the patrol car they get their hats mixed up. That would fatally affect the validity of any evidence gathered. Make sure all the Gardai present fit on their hats to make sure the garda dealing with you has the correct one.

BornToKill

_pure_mule_ wrote: »

what would happen if you spoke to a guard in Irish( as it is your right to do so) and they could not understand you?

Is it that they couldn't understand you or couldn't stand under you?

Indricotherium

BornToKill wrote: »

_pure_mule_ wrote: »

what would happen if you spoke to a guard in Irish( as it is your right to do so) and they could not understand you?

Is it that they couldn't understand you or couldn't stand under you?

Make sure he speaks IRISH and not Irish as well.

_pure_mule_

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Pure Mule you are the MAN! Dont bow down! Get into court make sure you have a solicitor, JC, SC and fight it man! Make sure you are heard in Irish. The legal profession needs people like you to keep it going. Fight on man. Just be sure to sell your house and car before you start so you can pay the nice cousel.

Hopefully someone will be having the sh*t kicked out of them somewhere while you mess about annoying the guy who is just trying to do his job. Much better he's arresting you than delaing with serious assults, rapes etc.

I will again point out that I'm not trying to annoy any garda as I have outlined already. I am just curious as I have already stated. I am interested to see what actually would happen? But thanks for your input all the same. Much appreciated!

_pure_mule_

tfitzgerald wrote: »

It's nit against the law to piss a Garda off . But it would be fair foolish

Agreed.

cursai

'You'll be receiving a bill for this' said Mr Sludds as he left Wexford courthouse for a holiday in custody.

Procrastastudy

_pure_mule_ wrote: »

this didnt happen. It was only an assumption made by the person above me. I was just curious to know the answers to the above questions in the event of a future encounter with the gardai.

_pure_mule_ wrote: »

I will again point out that I'm not trying to annoy any garda as I have outlined already. I am just curious as I have already stated. I am interested to see what actually would happen? But thanks for your input all the same. Much appreciated!

I think you can see my confusion. Might I suggest that if you get pulled by the Gardai they probably have a reason for doing it and you should ensure that time is not wasted on either side. You are of course entitled to speak Irish to the Garda as it is the First offcial language of the state. May I suggest that if the Garda does not speak Irish very well and you have a firm grasp of the second official language; you use it.

Personally I can see no reason why a garda would have any issue with you filming him as he goes about his job. Might think you're a but of a wierdo... If I was the garda in question I would make sure I did everything by the book and gave you every ticket you needed rather than exercising any discresion though.

Also you might want to rethink your driving if you are being frequently pulled over - I'm not suggesting you are. I have yet to be pulled over and I am a terrible driver - I just don't act like a muppet.

source

_pure_mule_ wrote: »

(1)Does anyone here know can you video the guards( with your mobile phone) when stopped in you car? I know in America you can but does anyone know if it is legal to do so in Ireland?

You can film anyone or anything in a public place, just don't piss the Garda off while doing so.

_pure_mule_ wrote: »

(2)Also, what would happen if you spoke to a guard in Irish( as it is your right to do so) and they could not understand you? Would or could you be detained, even if you had not broken any laws.

You can insist on talking Irish to the Garda if you wish, but if the Garda cannot speak Irish well, expect him to hold you until he can get an Irish speaking Garda to deal with you. Also be sure you have a sufficient level of Irish to deal with the types of legal matters the Gardai will be dealing with. Otherwise you could find yourself getting very lost, very fast.

_pure_mule_ wrote: »

(3) Can a guard just make up something and arrest you on reasonable suspiscion? After all how can it be proven in a court of law that they did not have reasonable suspiscion? Thanks in advance guys:)

A Garda will not just stop you for no reason, so chances are, if they've stopped you then you've already done something worthy of their attention, and they will know whether there is a power of arrest for the offence or not.

_pure_mule_

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

I think you can see my confusion. Might I suggest that if you get pulled by the Gardai they probably have a reason for doing it and you should ensure that time is not wasted on either side. You are of course entitled to speak Irish to the Garda as it is the First offcial language of the state. May I suggest that if the Garda does not speak Irish very well and you have a firm grasp of the second official language; you use it.

Personally I can see no reason why a garda would have any issue with you filming him as he goes about his job. Might think you're a but of a wierdo... If I was the garda in question I would make sure I did everything by the book and gave you every ticket you needed rather than exercising any discresion though.

Also you might want to rethink your driving if you are being frequently pulled over - I'm not suggesting you are. I have yet to be pulled over and I am a terrible driver - I just don't act like a muppet.

Firstly, no I don't see where your confusion is coming from. As a law student I didn't think you would get confused so easily. Yes I did say that I would like to know the answers to these questions in the event of a future encounter with the guards, that does not necessarily mean that I am going to try and piss off a garda while he is simply trying to do his job. It means I am trying to educate myself so I know my rights and I know the law. Why would you suggest I speak in the second official language of my country just because the guard is so uneducated to speak in a language he is supposed to be able to speak? That's his problem not mine!

Secondly, you talk about the garda doing everything by the book just because he is being filmed? Is that not what he should be doing anyway, after all if your not going by the book your making it up, aren't you? Might I add, why would I care if the guard thinks I am a weirdo? I know people whose rights have been abused by gardai who felt superior. We are all equal and no being is superior until an offence has been committed. Am I right? Correct me if not. Therefore I feel it is an excellent idea to film gardai for both my protection and theirs.

Thirdly, You sound like you would make a great road safety officer. Thanks for the advice on my driving but I'm pretty sure my driving is law abiding and I have yet to have any driving offences.

Procrastastudy

You strike me as the kind of person who will suceed in this without trying. Good on you!

Thank you ref the road safety officer. Given the number of people killed on the roads by idiots I personaly applaud the efforts of the gardai.

_pure_mule_

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

You strike me as the kind of person who will suceed in this without trying. Good on you!

Thank you ref the road safety officer. Given the number of people killed on the roads by idiots I personaly applaud the efforts of the gardai.

Why thanks you very much! And I too applaud the gardai.

Procrastastudy

_pure_mule_ wrote: »

Why would you suggest I speak in the second official language of my country just because the guard is so uneducated to speak in a language he is supposed to be able to speak? That's his problem not mine!

Dealing with this in isolation as it's a fairly interesting point.

Why is a garda supposed to speak Irish? In even the 1937 Constitution the framers put in that English was an official langauge. Move this up to the current day many people who are not Irish serve in the AGS. Are you suggesting that all these people should be excluded because they don't speak Irish?

If someone only speaks Irish then of course provisions should be made. Speaking Irish when the garda doesn't and refusing to speak English is just being obstructive. If you feel that strongly about it you should look at geting the policy of AGS changed or perhaps putting forward a constitutional amendment.

EDIT: Incidently people doing this and then tripping over their Irish once it gets complicated - have they committed any type of offence such as obstruction? If not in Irish, if I sit there saying parlez-vous francais when its clear from even those three words I have no french is there an offence?

CharlieCroker

Foreign born members of AGS are required to study Irish in the Garda College.

It happens me at least once a week (especially on nights) where some moron with 3 sentences of Irish tries to be a smartass with me. They shutup quicksmart when they realise that I'll stay there all night speaking Irish to them.

MagicSean

_pure_mule_ wrote: »

Firstly, no I don't see where your confusion is coming from. As a law student I didn't think you would get confused so easily. Yes I did say that I would like to know the answers to these questions in the event of a future encounter with the guards, that does not necessarily mean that I am going to try and piss off a garda while he is simply trying to do his job. It means I am trying to educate myself so I know my rights and I know the law. Why would you suggest I speak in the second official language of my country just because the guard is so uneducated to speak in a language he is supposed to be able to speak? That's his problem not mine!

Secondly, you talk about the garda doing everything by the book just because he is being filmed? Is that not what he should be doing anyway, after all if your not going by the book your making it up, aren't you? Might I add, why would I care if the guard thinks I am a weirdo? I know people whose rights have been abused by gardai who felt superior. We are all equal and no being is superior until an offence has been committed. Am I right? Correct me if not. Therefore I feel it is an excellent idea to film gardai for both my protection and theirs.

Thirdly, You sound like you would make a great road safety officer. Thanks for the advice on my driving but I'm pretty sure my driving is law abiding and I have yet to have any driving offences.

If i might address some points. A Garda not knowing Irish does not make them uneducated. Gardaí are recruited from different nationalities and only those educated in Ireland would have been educated in Irish.

Secondly, you are wrong in that you say we are all equal. Gardaí are vested with powers that you don't have such as powers of arrest and search. They are also granted a power of discretion, a power they will likely not use with someone filming them. Like it or not most people consider being filmed as an unnecessary invasion of their privacy and will not want to do you any favours. The poster didn't mean "by the book" in the everything correct way he meant it in the way that they wouldn't let you off with anything.

You can go on about your rights til the birds come home, but rights carry with them responsabilities and consequences too and you must be prepared to accept these.

MagicSean

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

EDIT: Incidently people doing this and then tripping over their Irish once it gets complicated - have they committed any type of offence such as obstruction? If not in Irish, if I sit there saying parlez-vous francais when its clear from even those three words I have no french is there an offence?

No offence for only having a few words of irish but you'll use up any goodwill you had for being a smartass. No offence for speaking french if you don't understand English or Irish. Otherwise it's a fail/refusal.

ieoinu

Sure you can record your interaction with a Garda and be dealt with through Irish, French, Somali etc. whatever language you speak. If the Garda is so 'uneducated' that s/he doesn't feel competent to fully deal with you through Irish, I can guarantee there'll be a colleague can deftly complete tickets trí gaeilge. In relation to arresting you 'on suspicion' on suspicion of what exactly? If you're totally law abiding you've nowt to worry about have you....

@OP I'm sensing that you are looking for some sort of personal validation by inquiring about the reprocussions about acting in a lawful but somewhat antagonistic manner when interacting with a person of authority.

Your questions and subsequent remarks/replies suggest it is something you have fantasized 'put a lot of thought into' we'll say. The tone of certain comments would suggest that you have a somewhat confrontational personality. The fact that you seem most enthusiastic about speaking our native tongue, yet use English here to pose your question. Is it that you fear you may not receive an adequate response, as not that many people will be fluent in Irish? Are they (fellow Board Users, the people who's opinion you seek) deemed by you to be 'uneducated' too?

My advice to you would be; grow a pair, go out, get in your car and try it! What have you got to lose? Maybe a few quid, what have you got to gain, maybe a few points! (You will find that even though the Garda may not be a fluent Irish speaker, s/he will know a shed load more about law, RTA offences etc than you do, so be mindful of that)

We here in Ireland are lucky that our police force have retained a power of discretion, sure they're not perfect and polished but they do a good job and are invariably fair. I have a feeling that you may miss out on benefiting of that grace if you transgress some minor law of the land and dealt with by a Garda.

Failing that! I, that is if I, were you, would be a bit more introspective and I'd ask myself why?, Why exactly would I want to stick a video camera in somebody's face when they are dealing with me through their course of work? Would I do it in a shop/pub? Would I like it done to me, when I do my job? Do I really need to use Irish, is it so important to me, that I'll invariably end up delaying myself and possibly others. ( I'll re-iterate my point, you're not using it here) And what would I have to fear about being arrested for? Last I heard being an a$$.... wasn't illegal.

Bon chance!

Milk & Honey

I have been stopped by the guards several times over the last few years. Sometimes I have not been doing anything wrong, sometimes I have. I have always been let off. I have a friend who has been stopped several times over the last few years. Sometimes he has been doing something wrong, sometimes not. He has frequently been arrested or summonsed and almost never let go. The reason is that he starts challenging the guard with "why are you stopping ME?".

Zambia

What is the piont of this ? What possible purpose could it serve?