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Child Item

Why you should insist on RGI. when working with gas

Billy Bunting

But then again, why bother when unregistered cowboys get away with this. :mad:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2016512/Hero-pensioner-John-Davies-saved-granddaughter-burning-house.html

An RGI registered gas installer can be located at

www.rgii.ie

Hero pensioner saved granddaughter from burning house after gas blast caused by cowboy plumber John Davies was covered in flames but saved his life by diving into the snow to put himself out

Plumber Peter Naylor escaped jail
By Daily Mail Reporter

Last updated at 1:06 PM on 20th July 2011

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A grandfather badly burned in a huge explosion caused by a cowboy plumber's botched handy work dived back into his burning bungalow to rescue his nine-year-old granddaughter.
Pensioner John Davies was almost killed following the gas blast which left him temporarily blinded with 21 per cent burns.
Remarkably despite writhing in flames which he put out by diving into snow, Mr Davies, 67, still managed to rescue Amelia from a bedroom in the £100,000 bungalow in Willenhall, West Midlands.

Pensioner John Davies was left temporarily blinded by the explosion and suffered 21 per cent burns
And the days following the terrifying ordeal in December last year Amelia, who was unharmed, touchingly offered to be her granddads 'eyes' after the former delivery driver was struggled to see following the explosion.
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When planking goes wrong: Woman smashes chin on cooker attempting to pose for photo

Plumber Peter Naylor escaped a jail sentence yesterday at Wolverhampton Crown Court. He was given a 10-month prison sentence, suspended for a year, and ordered to carry out 150 hours of unpaid work after admitting a health and safety breach.

The court heard Naylor had agreed a fee of £125 to fix a dripping tap and needed to remove a gas meter - which he was not qualified to do - to get to it.
But the 61-year-old's work flooded the kitchen and he left Mr Davies to dry it out while he went to fetch a part.
Plumber Peter Naylor, left, escaped a jail sentence yesterday at Wolverhampton Crown Court following the explosion where Mr Davies, right, was badly burned
The grandfather-of-two plugged in an electric heater in an effort to speed up the dry-out.
But a huge explosive took hold and ripped the house apart after gas had been left to seep out.
Today the couple spoke for the first time about how their lives have been turned upside down by the devastating accident.
Recalling the incident, a tearful Mr Davies said: 'I can remember looking at the heater and thinking it was melting. Then I heard a bang and what happened after that I just don't know.

'I remember going out the back and rolling in the snow. The flames were all on my arms and my clothes were stuck to me. The snow saved my life and I feel lucky to be alive.'

Mr Davies' and his wife Margaret, 65, told how they had lost all their possessions, including photographs and a cherished china tea set which once belonged to her mother
Mr Davies was left with 21 per cent burns to his face, neck and hands, but went back inside to rescue his nine-year old granddaughter Amelia.

She escaped unharmed but the bungalow had to be demolished following the drama. Mr Davies spent three weeks in the burns unit at Birmingham's Queen Elizabeth Hospital.
He had a skin graft to his left hand, which now has less grip. His face remains tender and he needs to stay in the shade on sunny holidays.
Mr Davies recalled how Amelia had carried a TV into his bedroom while he was recovering.
'She said 'I know you can't watch it but if you want to know anything, I will tell you. If you want I'll be your eyes.'

Mr Davies' wife Margaret, 65, told how the couple had lost all their possessions, including photographs and a cherished china tea set which once belonged to her mother.
The couple, who have a grown-up son and daughter, are now living in rented accommodation in Bilston, West Midlands, paid for by their insurers while a new bungalow is built on the same site.
Mr Davies, pictured with his wife Margaret, said he remembers rolling in the snow with flames on his arms
Mr Davies, who denied Naylor's claims that he had warned him he was unqualified, said he had hoped Naylor would have got a longer sentence.
Self-employed Naylor, who has now retired after a 30 year career, was uninsured.

Richard Quinn, defending, told Wolverhampton Crown Court: 'He's extremely remorseful and he's been having difficulty sleeping. The plight of Mr Davies is constantly on his mind. He completely and utterly accepts the blame.'

Judge Imaged Nawaz told Naylor: 'What you did was so, so reckless that you nearly caused the death of a number of people.'

Speaking after the sentence, Mr Davies added: 'I am very, very lucky to be alive and my granddaughter.'

His wife of 44-years, who was out shopping at the time of the explosion, said: 'Ever since it's happened, Amelia's been all about her Grandad.'

Destroyed: The bungalow had to be demolished following the explosion and is being rebuilt

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2016512/Hero-pensioner-John-Davies-saved-granddaughter-burning-house.html#ixzz1SraKtXJj

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Qualitymark

JohnnieK wrote: »

Every house is different, it's not a washing machine there buying. Some houses are very costly to zone for the grant and others are not. People should ask for a broken down quote and not just an email with the price on it.

True, and every book is different, but I can give a rough estimate of the work editing a book of a certain length will be, within the border of a low figure for a skilfully written book by an experienced writer and a book full of grammatical mistakes and plot holes but with fantastic possibilities by an inexperienced, semi-educated writer.

I've just had a job costed by three different plumbers, at €1,200, €2,000 and €2,200. Then one of them turns up and has measured the space wrong, and says because of this the boiler will be €400 dearer…

shane0007

Nowadays everybody knows the price of everything & the value of nothing!

shane0007

Qualitymark wrote: »

I've just had a job costed by three different plumbers, at €1,200, €2,000 and €2,200. Then one of them turns up and has measured the space wrong, and says because of this the boiler will be €400 dearer…

The €1,200 one is a "hang it on the wall, if the light comes on, it's a good 'un". The other two are closer to the mark. Most likely both Powerflushing, new digital timeclock, new suitable room stat & a decent quality boiler.

JohnnieK

Qualitymark wrote: »

True, and every book is different, but I can give a rough estimate of the work editing a book of a certain length will be, within the border of a low figure for a skilfully written book by an experienced writer and a book full of grammatical mistakes and plot holes but with fantastic possibilities by an inexperienced, semi-educated writer.

I've just had a job costed by three different plumbers, at €1,200, €2,000 and €2,200. Then one of them turns up and has measured the space wrong, and says because of this the boiler will be €400 dearer…

It's not your fault he measured the space wrong. Tell him to go sing for it.

[Deleted User]

Qualitymark wrote: »

True, and every book is different, but I can give a rough estimate of the work editing a book of a certain length will be, within the border of a low figure for a skilfully written book by an experienced writer and a book full of grammatical mistakes and plot holes but with fantastic possibilities by an inexperienced, semi-educated writer.

I've just had a job costed by three different plumbers, at €1,200, €2,000 and €2,200. Then one of them turns up and has measured the space wrong, and says because of this the boiler will be €400 dearer…

You sound like professional which is a beautiful thing, now imagine if your profession was like my own profession were others were offering to do exactly the same job as yourself but had minimal training, little care for customer service and fluctuating prices.

If the above was the case how would you explain to a new customer who has only experienced the less professional the disparity between you and the others who seem to be offering the same service but with different confusing quotes.

There are a lot of good RGI's out there, unfortunately you haven't met one and I don't feel the ones you have met would be on this forum assisting others.

Qualitymark

gary71 wrote: »

You sound like professional which is a beautiful thing, now imagine if your profession was like my own profession were others were offering to do exactly the same job as yourself but had minimal training, little care for customer service and fluctuating prices.

I don't have to imagine that, it's happening in writing and editing more than anywhere else.

If the above was the case how would you explain to a new customer who has only experienced the less professional the disparity between you and the others who seem to be offering the same service but with different confusing quotes.

There are a lot of good RGI's out there, unfortunately you haven't met one and I don't feel the ones you have met would be on this forum assisting others.

Sensible point. But gary71, this is why it would help if there were some guidelines on a sensible price for a job like this. In plumbing, it's very easy to blind the customer with science; and the customer is likely to be frightened and malleable because of the danger of gas.

I have also thought for many years (and this is not a personal point against anyone here - I don't know you, and you are probably exceptions to this) that the general competence of Irish electricians, carpenters, plasterers, builders and plumbers is often quite low. I'm not saying this to be annoying or argumentative, but as a simple observation; people very often seem to be winging it. I couldn't count the number of times a man has come into my house - a professional doing the job he's trained for, and supposedly has the specialised equipment for, and asked "You wouldn't have a screwdriver, would you?"

At this stage I'm thinking of getting two further quotes, one from a Lithuanian (who comes with several recommendations, though these are all from *recent* work, which makes me cautious), and one from a Frenchman (who comes with a single recommendation, but from someone he's worked for several times).

Edit: in fact, it would be an excellent before-and-after service for the Gas Company to offer: come out before the job and say "It should cost roughly X", and come out after the job and inspect it for safety and competence.

[Deleted User]

Qualitymark wrote: »

I don't have to imagine that, it's happening in writing and editing more than anywhere else.

Sensible point. But gary71, this is why it would help if there were some guidelines on a sensible price for a job like this. In plumbing, it's very easy to blind the customer with science; and the customer is likely to be frightened and malleable because of the danger of gas.

I have also thought for many years (and this is not a personal point against anyone here - I don't know you, and you are probably exceptions to this) that the general competence of Irish electricians, carpenters, plasterers, builders and plumbers is often quite low. I'm not saying this to be annoying or argumentative, but as a simple observation; people very often seem to be winging it. I couldn't count the number of times a man has come into my house - a professional doing the job he's trained for, and supposedly has the specialised equipment for, and asked "You wouldn't have a screwdriver, would you?"

At this stage I'm thinking of getting two further quotes, one from a Lithuanian (who comes with several recommendations, though these are all from *recent* work, which makes me cautious), and one from a Frenchman (who comes with a single recommendation, but from someone he's worked for several times).

Edit: in fact, it would be an excellent before-and-after service for the Gas Company to offer: come out before the job and say "It should cost roughly X", and come out after the job and inspect it for safety and competence.

As a RGI who comes from outside Ireland and one who gets to see a lot of other RGI's work I can tell you there are tradesmen as good and professional as any.

The problems I find is as with other trades there has been no real restriction(till recently) on those entering the trade and no policing to help remove the unskilled, unsafe or undesirable to the detriment of the competent and decent RGI's.

Good tradesmen do suffer from the impact of bad tradesmen and I for one detest the bad ones. Someone employing a RGI should have confidence in the RGII selection process that allowes a RGI to work but using my favourite quote from last year, when you employ a RGI you don't know if you getting horse or beef.

anner25

A big problem here is lack of a proper apprenticeship scheme,the RGII have a Trainee Membership does anyone know any RGII trainee's? I certainly don't. GID then registration to RGII full membership where does this trainee lark come in ?

JohnnieK

anner25 wrote: »

A big problem here is lack of a proper apprenticeship scheme,the RGII have a Trainee Membership does anyone know any RGII trainee's? I certainly don't. GID then registration to RGII full membership where does this trainee lark come in ?

Trainee was there from the beginning for people working in the industry already. They had trainee status until they sat the GID.

If an Rgi/plumber has an apprentice he can still register the apprentice as a trainee.

There is no separate gas fitting apprenticeship it's all part of the plumbing apprenticeship since the early nineties or late eighties.

anner25

Understood but when I finished my apprenticeship and GID I found it very difficult to get anyone willing to offer any hands on training in the servicing and repair area.The GID and Plumbing apprenticeship barely covers anything regarding this,I know there is a GIFF fault finding course but really nothing beats that hands on experience. I think that's why were seeing a lot of RGIIs out there screwing up because the more experienced guys don't seem to be willing to pass on their knowledge.

[Deleted User]

So it's my fault? Nothing to do with the State sponsored silliness that's allowed absolutely anybody in to my industry irrespective of their suitability for the role.

My ability to earn as a tradesman has been massively impacted on by the unskilled doing my job, how will it help me to train anybody?

Do you think that if RGI's were drawn from plumbing and associated trades in the first place the transfer of knowledge would of been more likely to have accured?

Billy Bunting

anner25 wrote: »

I think that's why were seeing a lot of RGIIs out there screwing up because the more experienced guys don't seem to be willing to pass on their knowledge.

When i wanted to learn the Gas trade i was lucky the older more experienced guys mentored me along but thats because i did a three year apprentiship with the gas industry and not a 10 day refresher course, i often ask myself would i really wish to mentor some of the clowns who now carry the same RGI label as myself, no! if the powers that be have given them the ability to kill people then so be it, but my neck wont be on the line.
If fresh RGI's are really honest with themselves and feel lacking in competence then they should be big enough to hold their hands up to RGII and ask for further training, i'm sure that if there was honestly then numbers would dictate extra training would have to be made available.

anner25

I'm just speaking from experience the fact is some of these so called experienced guys are taking no blame here when some of them are a joke.Most of the crowds I've worked for over the years put no emphasis on proper flushing techniques and didn't even follow basic manufacturers guidelines.I was at a boiler recently that had no perm live and this was installed by an ex BG very well respected guy I approached him and he he lost it,the same guy doesn't even have a multi meter he uses a phase tester,nobody in the firm puts it up to him cause of his back round. I've learned everything I know from reading and going to as many manufacturers training days as I could not from instruction and I will be first to admit I've a lot to learn but guys like me haven't a chance because A-were not ex BG and B-were young and ''just done 10 day courses" who's gonna look after things when you guys retire ?

[Deleted User]

anner25 wrote: »

I'm just speaking from experience the fact is some of these so called experienced guys are taking no blame here when some of them are a joke.Most of the crowds I've worked for over the years put no emphasis on proper flushing techniques and didn't even follow basic manufacturers guidelines.I was at a boiler recently that had no perm live and this was installed by an ex BG very well respected guy I approached him and he he lost it,the same guy doesn't even have a multi meter he uses a phase tester,nobody in the firm puts it up to him cause of his back round. I've learned everything I know from reading and going to as many manufacturers training days as I could not from instruction and I will be first to admit I've a lot to learn but guys like me haven't a chance because A-were not ex BG and B-were young and ''just done 10 day courses" who's gonna look after things when you guys retire ?

All service and maintenance RGIs I'v met are self taught, gas engineering is not a recognised trade here, you're better off going at it the way you are.

What you have rightly noticed is spoofers and chancers are allowed to flourish in the gas industry for some reason

, i'v been round a long time and met a lot of RGIs at different levels, many that I have met with loud blustery voices with little cop on end up in important positions.

The regs are the regs it's not rocket science so how people with little regard for what the books really say are allowed to put their own spin on things confusing the issue is beyond me:mad:

JohnnieK

Just keep doing what your doing and stick to your guns. The spoofers will be found out in the end.

There is only so much someone can show you the rest is self thought.
I have a couple of numbers in my phone of fellas that know more than me and i have no shame in calling on them when needs be.

I only ran a permanent live to a one year old Viessmann today that was put in on a refurb. Wired by a sparks too.

[Deleted User]

JohnnieK wrote: »

Just keep doing what your doing and stick to your guns. The spoofers will be found out in the end.

There is only so much someone can show you the rest is self thought.
I have a couple of numbers in my phone of fellas that know more than me and i have no shame in calling on them when needs be.

I only ran a permanent live to a one year old Viessmann today that was put in on a refurb. Wired by a sparks too.

The message I'm trying to get over to sparks is a PCB is for life not just for Christmas.

Egass13

This is why . Wasn't until I asked him what happens when his 9 month old baby starts walking and decides to open the valve did the man actually realise what my problem was with his DIY disconnection . Not pictured is the piece of masking tap used as the blank cap, oh or the open fire which took the place of the gas fire , literally 3 feet away. It was like this for nearly two years .

dysfunctional

Hear, Hear!! i'm OFTEC reg. and i wouldn't dream of touching Gas....

[Deleted User]

RGI are trained in gas safety and it is the law that no one else works with the gas line. RGI must be insured every year. That is the only reason you need to answer the question at the start of this thread.

Anyone getting RGI should be picky what one they choose. Some RGI are not plumbers. Some are electricians. This is fine for the gas boiler service and repair but some electricians have been putting in whole heating systems and some of these are a disaster. Not trying to slag off anyone I'm just asking homeowners to ask a few questions first and always ask to see their insurance.

shane 007

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

Not trying to slag off anyone I'm just asking homeowners to ask a few questions first and always ask to see their insurance.

As a condition of your annual membership to RGII, all RGI's must provide a copy of their current insurance to RGII, so therefore if the RGI is currently listed with RGII, they must have insurance.

[Deleted User]

shane 007 wrote: »

As a condition of your annual membership to RGII, all RGI's must provide a copy of their current insurance to RGII, so therefore if the RGI is currently listed with RGII, they must have insurance.

Shane I said that RGI Have to be insured. we all should be insured. I was talking about homeowners letting any tradesmen in without insurance. I think RECI have to be insured too though someone might correct me on that.
What I was saying was that some RGI are not plumbers & yet they would try fit a solid ffuel back boiler.

Sir Arthur Daley

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

I think RECI have to be insured too though someone might correct me on that.

One cannot register with RECI unless you have insurance.

JohnnieK

shane 007 wrote: »

As a condition of your annual membership to RGII, all RGI's must provide a copy of their current insurance to RGII, so therefore if the RGI is currently listed with RGII, they must have insurance.

The recent prosecution in Louth, the person was posing as an RGI.

Clearly not everyone goes to the RGI website.

[Deleted User]

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

One cannot register with RECI unless you have insurance.

Thank you Sir Arthur. I will take the "think" out of that statement in future. So I can now say with certainty that RGI & RECI Have to be insured. Other tradesmen like myself should be fully insured & homeowners should ask us to show proof of insurance. I mean anyone could drill into a water pipe and cause damage. If they have no insurance then the homeowner has to foot the bill.

The cheapest quote is not necessarily the best quote. Homeowners ask what corners are being cut to make this the cheapest quote.

[Deleted User]

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

Thank you Sir Arthur. I will take the "think" out of that statement in future. So I can now say with certainty that RGI & RECI Have to be insured. Other tradesmen like myself should be fully insured & homeowners should ask us to show proof of insurance. I mean anyone could drill into a water pipe and cause damage. If they have no insurance then the homeowner has to foot the bill.

The cheapest quote is not necessarily the best quote. Homeowners ask what corners are being cut to make this the cheapest quote.

As a apprentice I once watched a fitter(more water diviner than gas fitter) find a water pipe buried in the kitchen wall with the tip of his drill.

What makes it memorable to me was as the fitter was holding back the flood with his hands and the little old lady of the house was shouting some choice words at him a bird flew in flapped around above us for a bit, had a dump then flew out.

I always thought the bird just flew in to comment on the quality of the work that day.

[Deleted User]

gary71 wrote: »

As a apprentice I once watched a fitter(more water diviner than gas fitter) find a water pipe buried in the kitchen wall with the tip of his drill.

What makes it memorable to me was as the fitter was holding back the flood with his hands and the little old lady of the house was shouting some choice words at him a bird flew in flapped around above us for a bit, had a dump then flew out.

I always thought the bird just flew in to comment on the quality of the work that day.

Gary very good. You made me laugh!

Even if he was good at his job this could have happened to him. It could happen to me on Tuesday on a job. Unfortunately some uninsured tradesmen would run away at this stage.

Thanks for the laugh.

[Deleted User]

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

Gary very good. You made me laugh!

Even if he was good at his job this could have happened to him. It could happen to me on Tuesday on a job. Unfortunately some uninsured tradesmen would run away at this stage.

Thanks for the laugh.

Your message is a good one, but welcome to the party.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=65446567

Nothing has changed in four years and it's still reliant on good luck and a bit of homework to get what you pay for and have it done right.

KoolKid

Recent topic items and references deleted due to concerns over the content.
If anyone wishes to discuss this feel free to PM me but please to not reference on thread.

Calahonda52

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0218/681090-gas-boilers/

JohnnieK

Some of these figures dont add up.
It say's 30000 boilers are fitted every year but manufactures sales figures don't support this.

It also doesn't mention the APHCI fighting the RGI re-assessments that have started saying it's too expensive. It's too expensive for the committee members because they are larger contractors and have numerous RGI's working for them and they would have to pay for there employee's to be re-assessed.

I for one agree with re-assessments for two reasons.

1. The regulations change from time to time and it is good to keep a breast of things.
2. There is re-assessments in most other counties that have a regulated gas industry.