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A warning about registered Gas Installers

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  • 17-04-2010 9:16am
    #1
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭


    I have seen a increase in unsafe gas installations under the RGII scheme, so as a warning i would be careful with any gas work that you have carried out, the scheme was designed to bring order to the gas industry but unfortunately it has had the opposite effect, it now like the taxi driver situation where anybody(some unskilled) have been encouraged to do the courses and get registered.

    As it stands at the moment there is no requirement to have any training or experience in gas to become a RGII, the government is paying for the unemployed to go on the course and the answers are being given on the gas safety test papers to get people passed, with the lack of enforcement of any kind of basic standard the RGII scheme is pointless and for safety i would advise people to ask for references, there are lots of competent gas installers out there you just have to be sure you're getting one, Gary.


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    #2
    slavetothegrind
    Registered Users Posts: 2,789 ✭✭✭slavetothegrind


    In what way Gary?

    Ventilation? Pipework?
    Did these guys leave a cert behind them?

    I was asked for trade papers or a credible industry reference, was a while ago though.

    Sure it's like the mastercraftsman sticker now, you can't drive a mile and not see one:rolleyes:


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    #3
    Joey the lips
    Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    Perhaps if other plumbers confirmed this the mods might make it a sticky.... As for checking references I have seen dodgy one's of those as well. Even seen a lad change his company name to nearly match another then follow the other around and use his references.

    The real solution to this lies in enforcement and correct regulation as can be seen in the taxi situation.

    I think the real dodgy plumbers lie in some of the new builds around the country. i believe there idea of gas testing was to switch it on and then ask.... " Can you smell it"


    Anyway.... Thanks for bringing it to light.


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    #4
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Doing the sort of work i do i come in to contact with lots of installers and training schools, i know there are training schools with a 100% pass marks, my friend has just finished his GID, payed for by the government and he has no trade papers or a back ground in gas, i sat my GID last year and only 2 out of ten had a plumbing back ground and everyone passed even a fella who didn't understand the soundness test and why/what he was testing, also i was given the answers so i don't what that says about me, job seekers are given 100% funding for the courses.

    As a gasman i feel knowledge and competents should be the requirements for working on gas, not the need for a job or because someone wants to give it a lash, i have dealt with a lot of emergency's in my time and i know how easy it is for things to go bang in the night and that's what make me concerned. Using plumbing fitting on gas is a bit of a silly, but luckily for one house holder this week i spotted it for them, Gary.


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    #5
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Joey the lips wrote: »
    The real solution to this lies in enforcement and correct regulation as can be seen in the taxi situation.

    I am still waiting for my safety inspection:eek: from the RGII inspector, i have been on their books from the start, Gary


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    #6
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    slavetothegrind wrote: »
    In what way Gary?

    Gas pressures is a big one at the moment, i am going out to appliances with a working pressure of 11mbar on average for low gas (minimum of 19mbar required) and the lowest being 4mbar because the fruitloop fitted a second boiler rather than turn up the heat output on the first boiler, with low gas, all you need is a second appliance not to have a flame failure device for it to become dangerous and end in tears.

    I've had a site of Nat gas boilers on LPG where they melted a few before they realized doh...

    In Dublin balanced flue boilers are being converted to open flue because the buildings are old, this practice is just wrong and dangerous but there are loads fitted like that.

    As someone who served a apprenticeship, the idea that working with gas safely can be done after a 15 day course is just mental, Gary


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    #7
    bar26
    Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭bar26


    gary71 wrote: »
    I have seen a increase in unsafe gas installations under the RGII scheme, so as a warning i would be careful with any gas work that you have carried out, the scheme was designed to bring order to the gas industry but unfortunately it has had the opposite effect, it now like the taxi driver situation where anybody(some unskilled) have encouraged to do the courses and get registered.

    As it stands at the moment there is no requirement to have any training or experience in gas to become a RGII, the government is paying for the unemployed to go on the course and the answers are being given on the gas safety test papers to get people passed, with the lack of enforcement of any kind of basic standard the RGII scheme is pointless and for safety i would advise people to ask for references, there are lots of competent gas installers out there you just have to be sure you're getting one, Gary.
    Are you sure these gas courses are givin out so easily to just anyone? because with solar panel installation you need to be a qualified plumber or spark to sit the exam, and thats fas.


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    #8
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    bar26 wrote: »
    Are you sure these gas courses are givin out so easily to just anyone? because with solar panel installation you need to be a qualified plumber or spark to sit the exam, and thats fas.

    As a qualified gas fitter i have a tendency to moan because it's what we do, i have heard story's of solders being given access to the courses for free and a few factory's that were closed down and the employees were given access to the courses with the entrance requirement wavered, but i heard this 3rd hand so i won't moan about that, from my own experiences it is not hard to get and pass the courses.

    I am sure for some getting the course and passing was hard work, but i am also sure others have had a much easier time of it by being given the answers and being molly cuddled, cheapening the efforts of the people who should be registered.

    Gas is a trade in itself, the shortest basic course for a City and Guilds qualification i could find is a year in the UK, i have found no gas courses for a qualification here in Ireland, anybody can pay to do two courses over 15 days and get papers to say their safe, knowledgeable and can work in the gas trade, if i were to say the same for electrical/plumbing/mechanics etc.. work, that after 15 days you can outfit a house or work on a car then people would have a problem with that.

    I don't understand why gas safety/ training is diluted here, things can go bang very quickly without the correct knowledge and sadly with the way the RGII has run the scheme as a consumer you can't tell if you have a tradesman or a fruitloop in front of you holding the RGII id card, Gary.


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    #9
    JohnnieK
    Registered Users Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭JohnnieK


    I totally agree with what Gary has said. The amount of unsafe situations I have come across is unreal. From gas hobs piped in qual-pex and isolation valves fitted on blow off's because the valve was passing.

    I served a 5 year apprentiship by the time FAS were finished with us, and have worked in the industry for 11 years and have done fault finding courses. I am no were near as experianced as Gary but I would rather shoot myself than leave a half done job. If something happens it comes back to me at the end of the day.

    I can also confirm about the entry requirements been wavered. I know of taxi men and every thing doing the GIS and GID and now they are going around servicing boilers (God help there customers).

    I also know of people who are not RGI registered doing gas work and boilers and are not even insured. RGI make a big deal to make sure you have 6.5million public liability insurance. If this home insurance thing comes in it will be the best thing for the industry because hopefully it will root out the bad eggs.


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    #10
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    Gary, have you reported these unsafe installations?


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    #11
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    This whole rgi thing is still realitively new here ,I'm sure it will improve as time goes by.

    I've posted on this forum before about how to find good gas installers and recommend using the seai site ,for installers that meet seai standards.

    The seai enforce manufacturers recommendations for installation.


    My main concern about any body is ,how it handles the information it gathers about installations and servicing. Whats stopping it turning into a spam bowl.


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    #12
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    Gary, have you reported these unsafe installations?

    Covering my own backside is a given, as you know the buck stops with the last RGII on site, but to give you a insight in to what can happen, there is a small estate outside Dublin 30ish property's that had been commissioned by a Bord Gais agent, serviced by numerous Board Gais agents, what they didn't notice was the flame lift on the burners of the boilers on this site, i went there noticed the flame lift, investigated, found the boilers had been converted to open flued boilers and were taking combustion air from the utility which had no ventilation, but did have a extractor fan, the reason for the installer fitting the boilers like this was he had drilled his flue hole to small and couldn't get the correct flue in to the hole, so he found a smaller flue that was for exhaust gas only and opened up the boiler.

    All this won't mean much to some, but to have a boiler with insufficient air for combustion can produce carbon monoxide and as the boilers were opened this can track back into the property. I shut down the boilers caused a fuss and because Board Gais had been responsible for the maintenance it was all sorted hush, hush between the installers and Board Gais, i personally have found it's my big mouth that gets a job sorted rather than the regs in place, so far anyway. Gary.


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    #13
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    This whole rgi thing is still realitively new here ,I'm sure it will improve as time goes by. .

    It now being said when the GID are resat in 5 years then thats the time the fruit loops will be weeded out, and the reasoning behind allowing a large number to pass was to meet a European target, but that could just be gossip:)


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    #14
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    gary71 wrote: »
    Covering my own backside is a given, as you know the buck stops with the last RGII on site, but to give you a insight in to what can happen, there is a small estate outside Dublin 30ish property's that had been commissioned by a Bord Gais agent, serviced by numerous Board Gais agents, what they didn't notice was the flame lift on the burners of the boilers on this site, i went there noticed the flame lift, investigated, found the boilers had been converted to open flued boilers and were taking combustion air from the utility which had no ventilation, but did have a extractor fan, the reason for the installer fitting the boilers like this was he had drilled his flue hole to small and couldn't get the correct flue in to the hole, so he found a smaller flue that was for exhaust gas only and opened up the boiler.

    All this won't mean much to some, but to have a boiler with insufficient air for combustion can produce carbon monoxide and as the boilers were opened this can track back into the property. I shut down the boilers caused a fuss and because Board Gais had been responsible for the maintenance it was all sorted hush, hush between the installers and Board Gais, i personally have found it's my big mouth that gets a job sorted rather than the regs in place, so far anyway. Gary.

    thats quite shocking. So they used a different flue elbow also? or was it devoid of an outer flue sleeve?


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    #15
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    In fairness they were quite clever and went to a lot of trouble rather than redrill the hole, the used the flue kit for fitting a twin flue but just used the exhaust part, they pulled out the plug for where you would connect the combustion air side of a twin flue and that was the hole drawing air from the room. To get threw the wall they used the black terminal you would use for flat roofs, which gave the game away because when i pulled up you could see these black top hat like terminals sticking out of the side of the white wall, Doh..


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    #16
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    In fairness there is inspections done on a daily basis by rgi.

    I think this issue is probably a very ,very isolated incident. Knowingly converting a boiler from a room sealed boiler to a open flue boiler is bizzare.

    The forms filled out for the job ,would have to have had room sealed ticked off on them.


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    #17
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    In fairness there is inspections done on a daily basis by rgi.

    .


    Really? what would you base that assumption on?


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    #18
    JohnnieK
    Registered Users Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭JohnnieK


    Name and shame Gary, it's the only way. :)


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    #19
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    Really? what would you base that assumption on?

    That my friend is an assumption right there ,I haven't made one.


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    #20
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    That my friend is an assumption right there ,I haven't made one.
    O yes you have:p
    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    I think this issue is probably a very ,very isolated incident. Knowingly converting a boiler from a room sealed boiler to a open flue boiler is bizzare.

    There are a lot of these installations, not as brutal as the one described but i know apartments where the air for combustion is either taken from above the false ceiling and the instillation looks like a twin flue arrangement or a shared flue for the block for exhaust gas only and the plug on top of the boiler removed and no permanent designed ventilation in some, all these have been looked at and missed/passed by Board Gais, even after i have thrown my toys out of me pram not all of these installation were made safe and are still this way today.
    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    The forms filled out for the job ,would have to have had room sealed ticked off on them.
    The boxes are ticked room sealed but not everyone checks and assumes the boiler is intact. Gary.


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    #21
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    gary71 wrote: »
    O yes you have:p

    Not in relation to what way rgi work

    There are a lot of these installations, not as brutal as the one described but i know apartments where the air for combustion is either taken from above the false ceiling and the instillation looks like a twin flue arrangement or a shared flue for the block for exhaust gas only and the plug on top of the boiler removed and no permanent designed ventilation in some, all these have been looked at and missed/passed by Board Gais, even after i have thrown my toys out of me pram not all of these installation were made safe and are still this way today.

    Thats beyond me ,I've never heard of anything like this.

    The boxes are ticked room sealed but not everyone checks and assumes the boiler is intact. Gary.
    But thats were the book stops and the reason for rgi,surely.

    It's still early days as I said earlier ,hopefully things will work better.


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    #22
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I hope it gets better, it's just a shame they got it so wrong, there is a format for gas registration across the water which works very well.


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    #23
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    gary71 wrote: »
    I hope it gets better, it's just a shame they got it so wrong, there is a format for gas registration across the water which works very well.

    You should have got mail from them in the last few weeks ,that would explain whats going on at the moment.


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    #24
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Nothing arrived yet, anything interesting?


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    #25
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    I won't go into on the forum ,not sure that I should.


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    #26
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    Not in relation to what way rgi work

    RGII have very few inspectors, They could not inspect everday if they wanted too. There is a massive problem at the moment where people are underqualified and RGII registered. They underprice because they are willing to cut corners.

    From listening to old time gas installers, RGII is a bit if a sham.

    EDIT. One installer has been reported to RGII at least three times for unsafe installations but still operates. Maddness.


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    #27
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    As long as it's not about getting rid of moaning plastic Paddys.


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    #28
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    Not in relation to what way rgi work

    RGII have very few inspectors, They could not inspect everday if they wanted too. There is a massive problem at the moment where people are underqualified and RGII registered. They underprice because they are willing to cut corners.

    From listening to old time gas installers, RGII is a bit if a sham.

    EDIT. One installer has been reported to RGII at least three times for unsafe installations but still operates. Maddness.

    We need a service like rgi in ireland because of the change in the market ,I think flogas are another company on the market now.

    I think it will work fine ,given more time.


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    #29
    slavetothegrind
    Registered Users Posts: 2,789 ✭✭✭slavetothegrind


    gary71 wrote: »
    As long as it's not about getting rid of moaning plastic Paddys.

    You really can't afford to get it wrong being made of plastic'n'all:D:D

    You are right of course, surely inspectors would pay for themselves if a bad/dangerous install was found and a statutory 1000 euro fine issued he would only need one a week to cover his costs.
    They must have a list of complaints to go through apart from random checks?

    I have seen a few room sealed appliances with the flue exhaust only piped out and air in from the room.But not as elaborate as you mention!
    There are still a lot of the old atmospheric aosmiths out there with way dodgy flue arrangements.


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    #30
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    I can't help thinking the information in forums like this one ,only encourage people to chance their arm at gas installations.

    I know people who post here mean well ,I do post here myself. But I'm always weary that some cowboys use the forum to get answers.

    The more people read about the ins and outs of things ,the less they feel the need for professionals. Eventually you get people working on the actual gas appliance and services.


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    #31
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    All due respect and i am all about safety, safety, safety but posting or not posting will have no effect in my mind, people are already doing it and they don't all have computers, fruitloops will always be fruitloops and the quality of gas installations is already at a low level and a bit of a joke, i know a site with 500 apartments where the average working pressure is 16mbar it was finished 2 years ago in Dublin and nobody cares.

    Having gone down this road before when Corgi started, silliness was stopped by proper enforcement, enforcement here as far as i can see is nonexistent except for large sites, enforcement takes the idea of diy out of the equation and it makes installers who haven't the skills leave the industry because they are scared of the fines or prison if there are deaths, this is all well publicized across the water.

    Mistakes were made when Corgi first started out, but they learned how to police the industry very well, instead of learning from those mistakes and looking at the format they use now with Gas safe, RGII wish to do there own thing which has led to this State sponsored silliness, i cover the whole country, i see sites and one of installs, i know installers and suppliers, i have heard of no one being stopped from working or fined, i wonder if it will take death(s) for these inspectors to get stuck in, i dearly hope not. Gary.


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