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Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

lazygal

I don't know where to post. Its a bit of a ranting and raving post but I can't put it there. I feel so, so, so belittled as a woman by the suggestion that a woman seeking abortion on grounds of suicide would face some sort of tribunal of inquiry. The fact it was even bandied about as a proposal at all annoys me. I'm pregnant right now and I feel like my husband and daughter will be put in a position where they might have to face life without me, because even if my health is in serious danger right now, unless I might die I won't receive treatment.

I know this is a rambling, incoherent mess of a post but I'm just so angry and upset and insulted by the current bandying about of the difficulties the state wants women to face in the abortion debate.

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efb

MaxWig wrote: »

This argument is so daft its hard to fathom.

If we are to accept suicidality as a exception, it has to be measured.

Are you seriously, genuinely suggesting a scenario whereby someone simply says "I'm suicidal' and they're handed a gown?

If that were to be the case, it would simply be a secret word. May as well be 'open sesame'

That's nothing got to do with the point Im making.

MaxWig

efb wrote: »

The issue about lying is the 'floodgates' scenario people claiming floodgates will open if you include suicide ideation, as many women would use this to procure an abortion. This I feel, is insensitive to women and those suffering mental illness

This argument is so daft its hard to fathom.

If we are to accept suicidality as a exception, it has to be measured.

Are you seriously, genuinely suggesting a scenario whereby someone simply says "I'm suicidal' and they're handed a gown?

If that were to be the case, it would simply be a secret word. May as well be 'open sesame'

MaxWig

the_monkey wrote: »

Spot on.

Good thread.

As they say if men could get pregnant abortion would NEVER have been illegal in this great little green country.

Ireland: still run by oul lads mentality.

As they say if men could get pregnant abortion would NEVER have been illegal in this great little green country?

And if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

the_monkey

Morgase wrote: »

Same here. If I hear "real and substantial risk to the life of the mother" once more, I might just explode.

And as for suicide not being a "proper risk" it shows what this country's attitudes towards mental health really are.

Spot on.

Good thread.

As they say if men could get pregnant abortion would NEVER have been illegal in this great little green country.

Ireland: still run by oul lads mentality.

efb

The issue about lying is the 'floodgates' scenario people claiming floodgates will open if you include suicide ideation, as many women would use this to procure an abortion. This I feel, is insensitive to women and those suffering mental illness

MaxWig

bluewolf wrote: »

It's specifically allowed for in legislation so ... I guess they didn't agree

In terms of legislating for suicide

[Deleted User]

MaxWig wrote: »

The 'other jurisdiction' thing is a red-herring.

Its simply not relevant in terms of legislation

It's specifically allowed for in legislation so ... I guess they didn't agree

MaxWig

kylith wrote: »

The life of the unborn would be of no consideration to anyone if these hypothetical lying women had the means to travel to the UK. We're looking at women who don't want to be pregnant being forced to remain pregnant, being forced to risk jail by ordering pills, or being forced to lie about being suicidal simply to avail of the same procedure that a richer woman can access abroad whenever she wants. Literally no-one that I can see gives a hand-wringing shít about those women's foetuses, otherwise they'd be campaigning to remove the right to travel.

The 'other jurisdiction' thing is a red-herring.

Its simply not relevant in terms of legislation

kylith

OldNotWIse wrote: »

d

I'm not saying she shouldnt be entitled, someone essentially asks "why is it such an issue if she lies" (as distinct from lying with regards to other procedures) and I think it's fairly obvious what distinguishes it from other procedures...namely that the life of the unborn is also under consideration. perhaps you dont think of it as a life and thats fine, but some people clearly do...hence the reason the debate is so polarised...I mean...isn't that obvious? were it not for the unborn, people would not be so divided on the issue.

The life of the unborn would be of no consideration to anyone if these hypothetical lying women had the means to travel to the UK. We're looking at women who don't want to be pregnant being forced to remain pregnant, being forced to risk jail by ordering pills, or being forced to lie about being suicidal simply to avail of the same procedure that a richer woman can access abroad whenever she wants. Literally no-one that I can see gives a hand-wringing shít about those women's foetuses, otherwise they'd be campaigning to remove the right to travel.

OldNotWIse

lazygal wrote: »

You may consider it a life, but not everyone thinks that way.

I don't think the life of a woman is exactly equal to that of a foetus, and nor does our State, even with the constitutional amendment. When there is a real and substantial risk to the life of a pregnant woman, she is entitled to avail of abortion, be it for physical or mental reasons. If a woman is happy to continue with a pregnancy, even at a risk to her life for whatever reason, that of course should be her decision. And if she wants the threat to her life dealt with, she is allowed, in Ireland, to seek that treatment.

I'm not saying she shouldnt be entitled, someone essentially asks "why is it such an issue if she lies" (as distinct from lying with regards to other procedures) and I think it's fairly obvious what distinguishes it from other procedures...namely that the life of the unborn is also under consideration. perhaps you dont think of it as a life and thats fine, but some people clearly do...hence the reason the debate is so polarised...I mean...isn't that obvious? were it not for the unborn, people would not be so divided on the issue.

eviltwin

MaxWig wrote: »

I put that exact point to my doctor the other day - and he still wouldn't give me the valium.

Go figure

I can understand your point but you just see one doctor and if you are unhappy you could probably get a second opinion. I wonder would your doctor think you're lying though or would he think you did really feel you need them but that it wasn't in your best interest.

The idea of a woman being subjected to a panel really bothers me. I hope it won't be actually that at all, that she won't have to sit in a room with these people behind a desk firing questions, I hope it will be done in a sensitive manner.

I wonder too if she is told NO will she be able to go to the UK or will there be attempts to stop her.

MaxWig

kylith wrote: »

If a woman is desperate enough not to be pregnant that she would go before these mental health experts and lie about being suicidal, do you not think that that is sufficient evidence to grant her an abortion? We are not talking about robbing banks here, we are talking about women potentially being desperate enough to lie to obtain a medical procedure that they cannot afford to otherwise avail of?

And afford is the optimum word there.

I put that exact point to my doctor the other day - and he still wouldn't give me the valium.

Go figure

MaxWig

lazygal wrote: »

You said people will lie in a situation that benefits them. What benefit does abortion confer on women (not people, as men won't need abortions) that causes them to lie to avail of one?

Well if it doesn't benefit anyone, who the hell would want one?

Let me guess, you are saying that benefit is far too 'nice' a word to associate with such a traumatic experience.

Perhaps you are right, but I would have assumed that 'benefit' could be understood to be the 'bettering of a situation'

kylith

If a woman is desperate enough not to be pregnant that she would go before these mental health experts and lie about being suicidal, do you not think that that is sufficient evidence to grant her an abortion? We are not talking about robbing banks here, we are talking about women potentially being desperate enough to lie to obtain a medical procedure that they cannot afford to otherwise avail of?

And afford is the optimum word there.

lazygal

MaxWig wrote: »

In the kind of cases we're talking about, absolutely.

Again, I'm not familiar with this 'women'.

Who the hell are they?
Are they really that similar to eachother?
Fascinating

You said people will lie in a situation that benefits them. What benefit does abortion confer on women (not people, as men won't need abortions) that causes them to lie to avail of one?

MaxWig

lazygal wrote: »

Do you see abortion as benefitting women?

In the kind of cases we're talking about, absolutely.

Again, I'm not familiar with this 'women'.

Who the hell are they?
Are they really that similar to eachother?
Fascinating

lazygal

MaxWig wrote: »

I don't know one man or woman who is incapable of lying in a situation where it would benefit them. Not one

Do you see abortion as benefitting women?

lazygal

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Maybe the small fact that there is actually another life to at least take into consideration?

You may consider it a life, but not everyone thinks that way.

I don't think the life of a woman is exactly equal to that of a foetus, and nor does our State, even with the constitutional amendment. When there is a real and substantial risk to the life of a pregnant woman, she is entitled to avail of abortion, be it for physical or mental reasons. If a woman is happy to continue with a pregnancy, even at a risk to her life for whatever reason, that of course should be her decision. And if she wants the threat to her life dealt with, she is allowed, in Ireland, to seek that treatment.

OldNotWIse

eviltwin wrote: »

Bank workers know 99% of the people coming into them are legit. Safeguards exist to protect against a minority. With this issue the talk from some people seems to assume most women will be lying and I have a problem with that.

Any woman who did lie would, imho, be a very desperate woman. I don't think you're going to have women claiming to be suicidal because they want to say they beat the system or because they don't feel like going to the UK.

But then I think the idea of any woman having to prove she has the right for an abortion whatever the reason is abhorrant anyway.

It's not about having to prove anything, she is not on trial. The specialists are just that...specialists. Therefore it is their duty and obligation to accurately assess the person appearing before them.

Banks may know that someone is legit, but they still carry out checks to filter out those who are not.

I do not agree with these "other people" you speak of that assume most women will be lying...but it is naiive at best to assume that NONE will.

MaxWig

lazygal wrote: »

So what's your concern? Women who aren't suidical won't get access to abortion under that heading, so what is the problem?

There's no need to paint all women as liars though, which is what comes across in your posts. No one ever said we should review the number of other proceedures carried out to make sure no one is lying about needing them. What's different about abortion services that means women telling lies is an issue?

Its not a Lie Detector test, its a medical examination, carried out by experts.

I'm unsure how I'm painting all women as liars, except in the sense that I don't know one man or woman who is incapable of lying in a situation where it would benefit them. Not one.

Granted I haven't met the posters on here

OldNotWIse

lazygal wrote: »

So what's your concern? Women who aren't suidical won't get access to abortion under that heading, so what is the problem?

There's no need to paint all women as liars though, which is what comes across in your posts. No one ever said we should review the number of other proceedures carried out to make sure no one is lying about needing them. What's different about abortion services that means women telling lies is an issue?

Maybe the small fact that there is actually another life to at least take into consideration?

eviltwin

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Have you not realised yet that we are not allowed to implement safeguards against system abuse, lest we criminalise or insult women??

I take offence at having to show ID and bank statements when applying for credit - honestly do they think I am a thief?? My word that I will repay the money should be enough.

It seems that safeguards against system abuse are tolerated in every other single scenario...except abortion. People get super hysterical about it. Rational discussion is....well... who knows - we've never seen it.

I certainly do not want to see a suicidal women forced to continue with her pregnancy, but there is nothing wrong with implementation of safeguards against abuse. (Having said that I think 6 specialists is a little extreme???)

Bank workers know 99% of the people coming into them are legit. Safeguards exist to protect against a minority. With this issue the talk from some people seems to assume most women will be lying and I have a problem with that.

Any woman who did lie would, imho, be a very desperate woman. I don't think you're going to have women claiming to be suicidal because they want to say they beat the system or because they don't feel like going to the UK.

But then I think the idea of any woman having to prove she has the right for an abortion whatever the reason is abhorrant anyway.

lazygal

MaxWig wrote: »

Suggestion that women lie? Its not a suggestion, its a fact of life.

No one is suggesting that - the panel is a panel of doctors there to diagnose.

If I go to the hospital and say I have Parkinsons, and they proceed to test me - are they insinuating that I'm lying?

So what's your concern? Women who aren't suidical won't get access to abortion under that heading, so what is the problem?

There's no need to paint all women as liars though, which is what comes across in your posts. No one ever said we should review the number of other proceedures carried out to make sure no one is lying about needing them. What's different about abortion services that means women telling lies is an issue?

MaxWig

eviltwin wrote: »

No but you have to look at the reality of the lives those women are living. They are in a vulnerable place and that alone carries risks of depression. Add to that the pressure of an unwanted pregnancy and those women might feel its too much for them. Its not to say none of them will lie but its a heck of a risk to take when other women with more choices can freely access abortion in the UK.

I understand your point, but if we are to accept the situation as it stands, then an assessment of suicidality is essential.

Not accepting the situation is another story

eviltwin

MaxWig wrote: »

So its less of a leap to think they would kill themselves than lie?

Think there may be some skewed logic at play here.

And I say that with respect

No but you have to look at the reality of the lives those women are living. They are in a vulnerable place and that alone carries risks of depression. Add to that the pressure of an unwanted pregnancy and those women might feel its too much for them. Its not to say none of them will lie but its a heck of a risk to take when other women with more choices can freely access abortion in the UK.

MaxWig

lazygal wrote: »

It confuses me as to why the suggestion that women lie, and will lie

Do you think all women who say they are suicidal during prengnacy are liars? Should we not allow any treatment under that category because some women may lie?

Suggestion that women lie? Its not a suggestion, its a fact of life.

No one is suggesting that - the panel is a panel of doctors there to diagnose.

If I go to the hospital and say I have Parkinsons, and they proceed to test me - are they insinuating that I'm lying?

OldNotWIse

MaxWig wrote: »

Well why didn't you say so.

That's good enough for me.

If you have no intention of lying, then I'm pretty sure we can assume that this homogenous group, 'women' will act in exactly the same way.

Glad that's cleared up.

Where does this assumption of benevolence come from?
It really rubs me up the wrong way.

Women don't lie?
Or is it that when they become pregnant, they lose the ability to lie?

Confuses the hell out of me.

Have you not realised yet that we are not allowed to implement safeguards against system abuse, lest we criminalise or insult women??

I take offence at having to show ID and bank statements when applying for credit - honestly do they think I am a thief?? My word that I will repay the money should be enough.

It seems that safeguards against system abuse are tolerated in every other single scenario...except abortion. People get super hysterical about it. Rational discussion is....well... who knows - we've never seen it.

I certainly do not want to see a suicidal women forced to continue with her pregnancy, but there is nothing wrong with implementation of safeguards against abuse. (Having said that I think 6 specialists is a little extreme???)

lazygal

MaxWig wrote: »

I say that with respect

I don't think you do.

MaxWig

eviltwin wrote: »

Rainbow Kirby rightly mention a few pages back that the kinds of women who will need abortion here are those who are in very vulnerable positions, people in those situations tend to be the ones most at prone of depression so why is it such a huge leap to think they might act on that?

So its less of a leap to think they would kill themselves than lie?

Think there may be some skewed logic at play here.

And I say that with respect

lazygal

MaxWig wrote: »

Well why didn't you say so.

That's good enough for me.

If you have no intention of lying, then I'm pretty sure we can assume that this homogenous group, 'women' will act in exactly the same way.

Glad that's cleared up.

Where does this assumption of benevolence come from?
It really rubs me up the wrong way.

Women don't lie?
Or is it that when they become pregnant, they lose the ability to lie?

Confuses the hell out of me.

It confuses me as to why the suggestion that women lie, and will lie, to gain access to medical treatment is proposed as a reason to deny all women access to medical treatment when there is a risk to their lives.

Do you think all women who say they are suicidal during prengnacy are liars? Should we not allow any treatment under that category because some women may lie?