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Attitudes to Porn... Mod Warning Post 719

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Comments

  • #482
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Raze_them_all wrote: »
    You don't think std's can be caught outside of sex? Plenty of people have caght hiv and aids outside of sexual intercourse.
    You oppose pornography, which means you oppose the poeple whoo do it. Many people support families from it, give to charities and even support politicians.

    I don't oppose any person. I oppose pornography. You're rather eager to strawman my position.

    Even if people give to charity based on pornography, if that $50 billion didn't go to the porn industry in the first place it might be available for more productive things.

    I think the world would be a better place without the porn industry. I can't see it happening any time soon, but I think that we can promote this view as an option. To live without pornography.

    I was a bit surprised to see the responses in this thread, that women didn't have a problem with their husbands looking at porn, I would have thought that more would have.


  • #483
    Novella
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,713 ✭✭✭✭Novella


    serenacat wrote: »
    i was responding to a question, your response is plain rude.

    I wasn't being rude, I meant "blah blah blah" in the no point going into details about how I felt about some of them because it's irrelevant. I didn't mean it in the 'I just couldn't be bothered" way. I am sorry if you found it rude though, wasn't my intention.


  • #484
    krudler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    this is a very personal Q but i will try to answer this....no but i have done other sexual things eg oral like a one night stand before i reformed.

    I'm confused, you've answered both yes and no to the same question?


  • #485
    minidazzler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,650 ✭✭✭✭minidazzler


    serenacat wrote: »
    what it is about

    Enlighten me? What do you think porn is about?


  • #486
    serenacat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 670 ✭✭✭serenacat


    Raze_them_all wrote: »
    Are you seriously comparing the porn industry to sweat shops. I now disregard your opinion.

    Exactly, you were naive. I know that women can just want sex from me and women know the same. I don't see that as a problem. Like we said to each their own.

    each to their own, it isn't something i understand. nor would i want to do but if no one gets hurt then no harm.


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  • #487
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    serenacat wrote: »
    you can't have real intimacy with an object and sex is always about intimacy you can't have sex without intimacy.

    What? You can't have sex without intimacy? Then what issue are you taking with porn? It must all involve intimacy.


  • #488
    serenacat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 670 ✭✭✭serenacat


    krudler wrote: »
    I'm confused, you've answered both yes and no to the same question?

    no i haven't had a one night stand in the sense of intercourse but other things such as oral etc


  • #489
    actuallylike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭actuallylike


    DancingDaisy wrote: »
    I don't think sweatshops can really compare. If we ignore the illegal sex trade for a second, most pornstar's aren't in countries where their human rights are being denied, and they are working in an industry that they can leave. People who work in sweatshops may have a choice.... generally between working in the sweatshop or starving to death etc. I doubt that porn star's are in quite the same position.

    I can't say for certain seeing as I'm not one, but many of them have possibly pursued this as a career.

    Many have of course, but then many haven't. As I've said above it may be the last option of some people and just because they get paid doesn't make it right. Sure in prostitution, they get paid but you surely can't agree with that?
    The point I was trying to make is that porn dehumanises people (women mainly) and makes them into sexual objects, nothing more, which in my view is completely wrong.
    minidazzler wrote: »
    They get paid a few thousand dollars to fcuk on camera and have it released to the wider world.

    Sounds fair to me, money in exchange for good and services.

    To think they all get paid a few thousand dollars is naive, of course some do, but majority I'm sure don't and they get into it just to pay the bills
    Raze_them_all wrote: »
    Are you seriously comparing the porn industry to sweat shops. I now disregard your opinion.

    Disregard away, the point was that you don't seem to have a problem with something if the people involved consent? Well what if they feel they have no choice? Bills to pay, rent, kids, etc. all adds up where a simple McDonalds job won't suffice so they may reluctantly turn to porn to make ends meet.

    You all seem to think that they all get paid a mint and love what they do, why? Because they seem to be enjoying themselves on camera? I would guarantee that plenty of them hate the life they're in but it's okay...cause they're getting paid.


  • #490
    Raze_them_all
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,477 ✭✭✭✭Raze_them_all


    Jakkass wrote: »
    If narrow means doing the right thing, call me the most narrow guy in town.



    Providing help to people who have problems with pornography is hardly wrong. I support Craig Gross' ministry because it helps people who were formerly dependent on pornography to reclaim marriages that were in difficulty, and to live freely of it. Many people are thankful of what XXXChurch has done worldwide, and I think that's to be praised. What's so wrong with this?

    Mind you, I think they like I, really would be indifferent as to whether or not you find it laughable. Laugh all you want, but if this helping people, I cannot but praise it. Their presence at porn shows is also a huge plus, it gets people to think twice about it and their situation, and it is great that the organisers of porn shows welcome them.

    Do you genuinely believe that nobody has a problem with pornography?



    It doesn't mean that both views are equally valid however. I will be supporting the view that pornography is harmful, because this is what I perceive from reality.



    Who has claimed that it is the root cause of all things evil?



    I don't consider myself an expert. I'm just a guy with an opinion, and I have every right in a free society to openly oppose pornography.



    People are free to come up with their own conclusions. It doesn't mean that their own conclusions are right however.

    This subject is one that unfortunately gets far too heated. It's also impossible to argue that pornography is wrong with a moral relativist.
    1) That is judgemental as fcuk.
    2)Yes some people have a problem just like others do with, drugs,drink,religion,voilence,food
    3)What makes your opinion more valid than anyone else's?


  • #491
    oceanclub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,413 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I oppose pornography. [....] I think the world would be a better place without the porn industry.

    So is pornography that is not part of any industry OK?

    P.


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  • #492
    serenacat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 670 ✭✭✭serenacat


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    What? You can't have sex without intimacy? Then what issue are you taking with porn? It must all involve intimacy.
    ahh i see, i am referring to real people having sex in real life but i think the reason porn stars don't feel real connection or love with each other is they have to distance themselves emotionally from the situation and also because of the sheer amount of people they have sex with .


  • #493
    minidazzler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,650 ✭✭✭✭minidazzler


    [QUOTE=actuallylike;63958799
    To think they all get paid a few thousand dollars is naive, of course some do, but majority I'm sure don't and they get into it just to pay the bills
    [/QUOTE]

    It is not Naive, there are standard payments for porn actors and actresses, and they start at a few hundred dollars for a solo masturbation scene and rise to several thousand dollars for gang bangs. (I saw a thing for entry level porn a year or 2 ago, can't remember where and finding it is too much of a bother TBH.)


  • #494
    serenacat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 670 ✭✭✭serenacat


    minidazzler wrote: »
    Enlighten me? What do you think porn is about?

    have you read this thread? i have posted my point of view many times


  • #495
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,360 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    serenacat wrote: »
    touching someones body brings feelings of closeness and having an orgasm with someone brings feelings of love (whether you like it or not) as biologically we have evolved to pair bond as any time we have sex with someone could result in a baby to ensure the best survival for this baby the parent should be together and raise the baby together.

    You can have sex with someone once off without feeling a major connection personally i wouldnt do this it is cold however if you are repeatedly having sex with the same women you will start to feel greater feelings for her.

    Everytime humans touch a connection is made and you can't have sex without touching. I am basing this on human science and evolution.
    Only partially and its a very grey and variable area. Plus people have a range of responses too. The feelings of closeness, especially after orgasm and especially in women are down to oxytocin being released(bigger amounts again are released at childbirth). This does form part of a pair bond if its anchored to a particular person. If its anchored. It doesnt have to be or it can be anchored as a great feeling personally.

    Plus if you take the pure biological hormonal route then very very few couples would be together after 4 years as numerous studies have found the levels of the love hormones are largely, if not completely gone by then. Look at all the couples youve known. look at any agony aunt site or page and you'll notice a pretty clear pattern of breakups at the 2 , 3 and 4 year mark. Just after the so called honeymoon period is over. Yet Im sure you know couples who have been together for a lifetime. we are far more than the sum of those instincts. In both directions. whether that be a couple together for a lifetime or a couple together for a night. One size does not fit all and its very very complex

    My concern with porn is that it may isolate a person as their brain is getting its jollies without contact. Of course masturbation can do the same thing, but pron give more stimulation. It also gives unrealistic expectations of sex too. So someone overly reliant on porn for information may have a lot to learn when the real thing comes up. Plus they may judge themselves harshly when comparing themselves. Porn actors have usually very fit bodies and large willies. Its their job, so I could see that being an issue. It also takes sex and isolates it. It did less so in the past when at least there was some notion of a "story" :). Now its a collection of lets get down to it. Apparently one of the biggest changes in the industry. the other problem is people may naturally become desensitised to the regular stuff and want more and more extreme or weird stuff. again a change in the genre.

    Erotica including porn I have no moral issue with, within certain parameters(willing participants etc), but like anything else it should only ever be a part of sexual expression.

    I liken it to salt. a bit of salt increases flavour. Its a condiment. Its not the main course. You would not eat salt on its own and also some just cant stand salt at all.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #496
    serenacat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 670 ✭✭✭serenacat


    me too i can't believe it! to jackass


  • #497
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Jakkass wrote: »
    If narrow means doing the right thing, call me the most narrow guy in town.

    No, it's the fact you claim it's the right thing that makes it narrow - and in a nutshell why debating with you on these kind of issues is a waste of both our times.


  • #498
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Raze_them_all wrote: »
    1) That is judgemental as fcuk.

    How am I drawing conclusions about someones character here? I'm inherently as wrong as anyone else and I'm willing to admit this.
    Raze_them_all wrote: »
    2)Yes some people have a problem just like others do with, drugs,drink,religion,voilence,food

    Right! Why shouldn't XXXChurch offer them help?
    Raze_them_all wrote: »
    What makes your opinion more valid than anyone else's?

    Are you a moral relativist? If so I can see where you are coming from. I believe there are absolute truths, and absolute rights and wrongs.


  • #499
    DancingDaisy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭DancingDaisy


    actuallylike wrote: »
    Many have of course, but then many haven't. As I've said above it may be the last option of some people and just because they get paid doesn't make it right. Sure in prostitution, they get paid but you surely can't agree with that?
    The point I was trying to make is that porn dehumanises people (women mainly) and makes them into sexual objects, nothing more, which in my view is completely wrong.

    Again prostitution is a completely different ball park, but my opinion on it is that it's not for me, but if people want to sell their bodies like that it's their choice, and one they do it safely, sanely and consensually I'm not gonna argue with them. Actually if it was fully legalised then I think it would be a much safer occupation and less stigmatised.

    I don't think it dehumanises anyone. It's very obvious that they are infact human, and have chosen to be there, and again you may feel that it's a bad thing that a woman is being viewed as a sexual object, which in every day life I would agree with, but in the case of sex, that's part of the point, and part of what she's aiming for.
    actuallylike wrote: »
    You all seem to think that they all get paid a mint and love what they do, why? Because they seem to be enjoying themselves on camera? I would guarantee that plenty of them hate the life they're in but it's okay...cause they're getting paid.

    I'm pretty sure that alot of the time they aren't particularly enjoying themselves in front of the camera. I know very few people that always enjoy themselves when they are at work. You also can't guarantee anything unless you have lived that life. Maybe they do hate their jobs and are just doing them to make ends meet, but so are many other people in the world, that doesn't make it wrong. These people are still making porn though, and often continue to do so for many years.


  • #500
    Raze_them_all
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,477 ✭✭✭✭Raze_them_all


    serenacat wrote: »
    each to their own, it isn't something i understand. nor would i want to do but if no one gets hurt then no harm.
    It's quite simple.I will not judge others for what they believe or do as long as it is legal.
    You believe in your way of life. Fair enough I won't try to convince you other wise unless you try to do the same about my way of life
    actuallylike wrote: »
    Many have of course, but then many haven't. As I've said above it may be the last option of some people and just because they get paid doesn't make it right. Sure in prostitution, they get paid but you surely can't agree with that?
    The point I was trying to make is that porn dehumanises people (women mainly) and makes them into sexual objects, nothing more, which in my view is completely wrong.



    To think they all get paid a few thousand dollars is naive, of course some do, but majority I'm sure don't and they get into it just to pay the bills



    Disregard away, the point was that you don't seem to have a problem with something if the people involved consent? Well what if they feel they have no choice? Bills to pay, rent, kids, etc. all adds up where a simple McDonalds job won't suffice so they may reluctantly turn to porn to make ends meet.

    You all seem to think that they all get paid a mint and love what they do, why? Because they seem to be enjoying themselves on camera? I would guarantee that plenty of them hate the life they're in but it's okay...cause they're getting paid.
    Actually the lowest paid actors get a few hundred for a days work. Nobody said porn makes millionaires.
    Some people who can't make ends meat get second jobs. By your reasoning alot of people would of turned to porn to pay the bills by now.
    Wow people portraying something else on camera thats not real....you mean nobody is trying to really kill Bruce Willis either?

    If I sign a contract and am mentally fit, then I cannot complain and bitch about what I have to do as I've agreed to it.


  • #501
    serenacat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 670 ✭✭✭serenacat


    i agree Wibbs good points


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  • #502
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    No, it's the fact you claim it's the right thing that makes it narrow - and in a nutshell why debating with you on these kind of issues is a waste of both our times.

    If your sig is indeed the case, I'd like to offer you a cookie around about now :pac:

    There is a problem with this debate, whenever someone puts forward a conservative viewpoint it is perceived to be a personal attack. In reality, I can regard pornography as wrong, and still respect people as individuals.

    The separation between sexuality and romantic love could be the biggest danger to traditional marriage.

    Let me ask you this, do you believe I am commenting honestly and earnestly on this thread?


  • #503
    minidazzler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,650 ✭✭✭✭minidazzler


    serenacat wrote: »
    have you read this thread? i have posted my point of view many times

    Yup, read it all, the only thing I garnered is you think it's degrading to women. Which, TBH, is technically true, but they know what they are signing up for. So it's kinda empowering really, because while they may be called "Slut, whore, etc." They have the power in porn. They have the power to say "Stop" and all of it grinds to a halt.

    Your views are from watching a certain kind of porn, let me tell you, that is NOT all there is out there. I have seen most kinds of porn out there, and to say it's all degrading and all horrid and lacks intimacy is bull.

    To say a man doesn't want you because he watches porn, is BULL. Porn is a filler, a stop gap, it's used for some alone time, I would much rather have sex than watch porn, but I will likely never give up watching porn even if I do get married. (Though I am more of a reader now).


    So, in short, while you may think you know what porn is about, you know nothing about porn, you simply have an opinion based on what you have seen, and while you are entitled to your opinion, I also have an opinion that says your opinion is wrong and utter tripe. :)


  • #504
    serenacat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 670 ✭✭✭serenacat


    Jakkass wrote: »
    If your sig is indeed the case, I'd like to offer you a cookie around about now :pac:

    There is a problem with this debate, whenever someone puts forward a conservative viewpoint it is perceived to be a personal attack. In reality, I can regard pornography as wrong, and still respect people as individuals.The separation between sexuality and romantic love could be the biggest danger to traditional marriage.

    Let me ask you this, do you believe I am commenting honestly and earnestly on this thread?

    IA


  • #505
    Raze_them_all
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,477 ✭✭✭✭Raze_them_all


    Jakkass wrote: »
    How am I drawing conclusions about someones character here? I'm inherently as wrong as anyone else and I'm willing to admit this.



    Right! Why shouldn't XXXChurch offer them help?



    Are you a moral relativist? If so I can see where you are coming from. I believe there are absolute truths, and absolute rights and wrongs.
    You said you are morally right. That is why I called you judgemental.
    The church should help them without the involvement of god. Which is what alot of support groups do.


  • #506
    actuallylike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭actuallylike


    Raze_them_all wrote: »
    Actually the lowest paid actors get a few hundred for a days work. Nobody said porn makes millionaires.
    Some people who can't make ends meat get second jobs. By your reasoning alot of people would of turned to porn to pay the bills by now.
    Wow people portraying something else on camera thats not real....you mean nobody is trying to really kill Bruce Willis either?

    If I sign a contract and am mentally fit, then I cannot complain and bitch about what I have to do as I've agreed to it.

    So we're talking about American porn here are we? What about porn in other countries? Not including the illegal sex trade but I'm sure outside of America, they don't get paid as much (ie Russia, etc.)
    What I'm saying is that when you look at an American porn film, well produced and all that, I suppose you can say that they're been well paid but I'd say that for every film like that made, hundreds are made around the world where conditions are not as good. I disagree with these for obvious reasons but I also disagree with the American ones for their dehumanising nature.

    DancingDaisy, you said they don't dehumanise? Well I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

    ps Bruce Willis? No need to get sarcastic about the whole issue


  • #507
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Raze_them_all wrote: »
    You said you are morally right. That is why I called you judgemental.
    The church should help them without the involvement of god. Which is what alot of support groups do.

    So, because I believe that I am morally right, I am judgemental? This is skewed reasoning. Let me define judgement: the cognitive process of reaching a decision or drawing conclusions.

    Likewise XXXChurch are a non-judgemental service to free people from pornography. They don't draw conclusions about you, they just help you if you feel you need help. This is why I applaud their service.

    Now, have I drawn any conclusions about another person?

    No, rather I believe that I am right to regard morality as wrong. That's not judgemental in the slightest.

    Why without God? If God is a key part of the solution why should He be left out? Churches promote Christianity, and promote Christianity as a real solution to peoples lives. If you wish to reject God, that's your decision, but don't expect Christians to regard it as good or applaud it.


  • #508
    Novella
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,713 ✭✭✭✭Novella


    minidazzler wrote: »
    Enlighten me? What do you think porn is about?



    serenacat wrote: »
    if a guy wants to do anal he is gay, and cant believe any girl would want to do that.
    serenacat wrote: »

    c) hated the way the guy talked to and treated the women she was spat on, called a S L U T and dragged by her hair... i wont go on as may get banned
    d) the boys i knew that watched in didn't treat women well at all

    e) where is the romance? i can't fathom that women would watch it with their partners! why? it is sad that you need to watch others having sex when in a loving relationship you shouldnt need to watch others.


    here is my advice delete the porn sites you have book marked on your internet and take a nice long bath with candles with your SO.
    serenacat wrote: »
    this is to AAARRRGGG
    sex is not a means to an end to is to connect and build relationships with each other and form a loving bond. We have evolved to be very sexual beings as through orgasms loving hormones are released. This is why it is called 'making love' so that pair bonding can occur as this is the best way to ensure the best development of the offspring.

    I didnt realise that about porn being a release for possible rapist this is the only positive i can see. I take this point


    i think for the 'porn stars' the whole working environment is disgusting and for anyone who saw the whole video alot of porn stars start off as prosititutes and for me there is very little difference in the two jobs. And most of the women have very bad relationships with their father and seek male approval it is very damaging for her self worth and esteem. What saddens me most about porn is that so many see if as a social norm and it is more unusual not to watch it.
    serenacat wrote: »
    most women get into porn/prostitution out of desperation because of poverty and that they have been abused as kids and bad relationship with their father.


    Serenacat, I think you are getting a really hard time in here and I can understand that it is probably pretty upsetting to have your opinion picked apart like it has been in these last few pages.

    However, when minidazzler asked you what you think porn is about, it kind of got me thinking. You say you have watched enough of it to know but I mean, I have picked out a few things you have said in this thread and I mean, really, do you stand by all of that?

    I can understand why some people actually want to have sex for a living. Tbh, the thought of being a pornstar doesn't repulse me at all. I don't have issues with my father, we're very close. I don't seek approval from men in an unhealthy manner. I'm not poor. I can honestly just understand that yeah, some people have an extremely open view of sex and sharing their body. Is it really that awful?

    I wouldn't have any problems with any of what you'd said had you have backed it up with some kind of research but you didn't. You made absolutely colossal generalisations, "If a guy wants to do anal, he is gay", for example. It's just not fair to come out with such sweeping statements.

    I think you kind of have to see where many of the posters are coming from here. I do respect so much the fact that you are all about loving, intimate sex, it's great, it really is but I think maybe you should respect too that others want to do things a little different to that. It doesn't make it wrong or bad.

    Anyway, I just wanted to apologise if I came across as rude and explain properly to you where I was coming from.


  • #509
    pretty-in-pink
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭pretty-in-pink


    Once its all consenting adult actors, does not glorify rape, and its not something you or your OH watches 24/7,so that it effects your relationship(s) in a very negative way, then I see no problem.

    I don't see mr pip during the week, and whether through porn or fantasy, we would both prefer that we got our respective jollies without straying.

    Porn is no more harmful then fantasy- so long as it doesn't become an obsession. I think that judging someone who watches porn,and so adding a guilt thing to it makes it much more likely to become a dangerous cycle.


  • #510
    oceanclub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,413 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Are you a moral relativist? If so I can see where you are coming from. I believe there are absolute truths, and absolute rights and wrongs.

    There's no such thing as a moral non-relativist. Even the churches have changed their moral stance on issues.

    P.


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  • #511
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    oceanclub wrote: »
    There's no such thing as a moral non-relativist. Even the churches have changed their moral stance on issues.

    P.

    Moral universalism and moral consequentialism (utilitarianism) are two stances amongst others.


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