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Bengal famine or not when the Indian people had a choice in WW2 they chose the side of the British empire and raised the largest volunteer army in history.
Churchill had his faults but the west could do with a similar galvanizing figure today.
They failed a lot of benchmarks to join pre invasion, they are good bit away from that yet. The long term goal absolutely should be ascending to the EU but right now they need a iron clad security guarantee. The budapest memorandum security assurance wasn't worth the paper it was written on, they need a guarantee that if Putin invades again there is a joint military response from allies.
There is a big difference in providing a security guarantee and having Ukraine in NATO.
There is only one country in or around Europe that has been sabre rattling for the past 20 years and interfering with the internal politics of other neighbouring countries. That's Russia. So spare us all your guff about security concerns. This is about the greed of two corrupt, degenerate old men. Nothing more, nothing less.
Allowing them to join the EU could provide that, given that the EU also has a similar treaty to protect each other in the case of an attack.
If Ukraine can't join NATO they need an iron clad "article 5" style security guarantee in any deal.
The reparations in this proposed deal are an absolute joke, Russia will actually profit from it.
There appears to an enormous divergence between how Europe and the US view the ongoing war.
Kaja Kallas the EU high representative for Foreign Affairs, states that “it is important that we continue to support Ukraine and pressure Russia. That is what we are working on”. She says those in the meeting all “welcomed the US’s push for the war to end”. Kallas adds: We all want this war to end but how it ends also matters. We must keep in mind there’s one aggressor and one victim. A complete and unconditional ceasefire must be the first step … but right now, we see no indication that Russia is ready for a ceasefire. Russia is not winding down its military machine but ramping it up. We still need to get from a situation where Russia pretends to negotiate to a situation where Russia needs to negotiate. We are getting there' She describes how sanctions on Russia have had an impact on its economy and notes some failures on the battlefield. Kallas adds: 'Putin cannot achieve his goals on the battlefield so he will try to negotiate his way there.'
Meanwhile the Telegraph reports how, 'The US army chief warned Ukraine it faced imminent defeat if it did not agree to a peace deal, according to reports. Dan Driscoll, Donald Trump’s army secretary, delivered the grim assessment during a visit to Kyiv last week in which he shared with Ukrainian officials a US-backed peace plan widely derided as a capitulation to Moscow, sources told NBC. Mr Driscoll allegedly said that Ukraine’s situation would only worsen over time as Russia continues to ramp up its aerial assault and has the ability to fight on indefinitely. He also supposedly said that the US defence industry cannot continue to resupply Kyiv with weapons and air defences at the rate required to protect the country’s infrastructure and population. ''The message was basically — you are losing,” a source told the news outlet, adding: “and you need to accept the deal.”
Who is telling the truth?
In any western country, the government would be on a much shorter leash with the public regarding being allowed to invade countries, than Putin is with the Russian people. Since Vietnam anti war protests have been allowed in western countries during wars. However during the Algerian War, the police under Maurice Papon, later found to be a war criminal who later was discovered to have collaborated with the Nazis in Vichy France, actually committed a massacre during one protest in Paris many of the victims Algerians.
All this about de-Nazification and Russian fears of NATO. These were only put in the plan as they were the original excuses for invasion.
The irony that he's called Bayraktar.
How can Europe best Russia when even NATO members continue to do such significant business with them. Just one example from today,
'Natural gas supplies from Russia to Turkey continue and there will be no import problems in the future, according to the head of the Turkish Energy Ministry, Alparslan Bayraktar. Russia has always been and remains a reliable supplier of natural gas to Turkey. Gas supplies to our country from Russia continue; there is no crisis, there are no problems and there will be none“, the minister said on Lider TV, commenting on the bill supported by US President Donald Trump, imposing new sanctions against Russia and countries cooperating with it. Turkey has been importing natural gas from Russia since the late 1980s. Russian gas is an important source of our imports. Thanks to it, Turkey meets about half of its natural gas needs. “Relations with Russia on energy issues are developing positively, Bayraktar noted.'
Maybe a good negotiating tactic with US (if Ukr goes along) ?
Haggle with this administration over the "share of the spoils".
It may get their "respect" and divert their longing eyes from getting into bed with Putin.
edit: as well as showing up how little US has actually done for Ukraine
Finally someone is advocating for Europe's decades old concern: An genocidal Russia on it's borders. :)
Russia's 30-year old concern was always bogus and baseless. It never had any legitmacy.
And even if legitimacy might have been arguable at an early stage, that ended with the the second Chechen War, the Russo-Georgian War and annexations and finally and for good with the Crimea annexation of 2014.
Nothing Russia is doing now is legitimate. Nothing Russia is claiming now is legitimate. They should be dismissed as the hollow stunts of a rogue regime.
good to hear
To be honest I don't really care that we don't but i do have an issue that we don't and america does. I don't believe that one should profit from war/someone else misfortune.
a conspiracy theorist would have good cause for suggesting that Trump and his good comrade friend Putin planned it form day 1.
Yes, that's the original Russian version which was gutted by the EU version and has evolved since between EU/US/Ukraine in Geneva. But I don't know if the full details of that document have been released.
And as far as I'm aware all 3 of those points were removed or modified.
But the original RU "peace/surrender" plan is old hat at this stage.
Of which none of it matters anyway. Because Putin himself wasn't even going to accept the Kremlins own original version.
It is very unfair that Europe is not getting any of the money from the minerals, but the US is getting most of it, despite Europe spending the most on aid since the cut off in 2023 for 9 months.
my. Biggest gripe with the deal is
My understanding is that the current size of the Ukrainian military is 850,000. They inherited a military of 800,000 in 1991 so this isnt the first time its been that large.
All of that is exactly right.
But it makes no difference. Corruption and insider dealing and clientilism and general filthy carry-on are no longer crimes in Washington DC. At least not when the MAGAts do it. They'll just call it fake news and then try and pursue their accusers with falsified charges and intimidatory tactics like turning up at their private addresses with Newsmax camera crews and publicly announcing those addresses and telling the baying audience that the person is Lib/swamp/seditious/fake news/un-American. That has now happened several times.
Thats what fascists do, and we in Europe should act accordingly.
Can't imagine the debt pile is going to get any smaller either.
Even if the war ended today,he's done decades worth of damage to the Russian economy
Absolutely.
In the interests of peace, Russia may need to give up Russian territory, recognize Ukrainian as an official language, cap their military while becoming a neutral country. Putin needs to step down - following by fair elections monitoring by international observers. And they can no longer be a member of BRICS.
This will help to address the root causes of the conflict.
It's my understanding that the NATO stuff has been removed in the revised Geneva document(the cheek of Russia thinking they can just tell NATO how to operate).
I'm also not too concerned about the military cap at 800k. Thats a peacetime number and its still an enormous number for peacetime. And there's probably a multitude of ways around it with reservists/national guard etc……
I'd love anyone to explain why Ukraine shouldn't be in NATO though. It's so ridiculous to think that NATO would ever invade a nuclear armed Russia. Just look how much NATO has bent over backwards to not react to the multitude of airspace violations, drone incursions, acts of sabotage/cyberattacks and an honest to god missile killing a few Polish residents.
In any case this whole thing was a Russian psyop. An operation to split American intel and arms from Ukraine. They weren't even going to offer a ceasefire for their own version of the plan. There's no chance they accept the new EU/US/Ukraine Geneva one.
It's all theatre. And the EU has to play along because Trump is an amoral moron who just wants a political win at all costs.
Anyway seems the EU frozen assets part is also off the table since:
EU will speed up Ukraine’s €140B loan, vows von der Leyen – POLITICO
He also had business ties with Russia and Asia which in the opinion of some, are a factor in his position. There was a plan for a Trump Tower in Moscow.
Regarding war profiteering, without defending it, the alternative is making a loss, and thats not good either. Profit provides the capital to continue and maybe increase production. Communism as understood in the Warsaw Pact countries fell in part because of its attempt to defy the laws of supply and demand.
Some reports in the press of Trumps business ties with Russia before the war:
**** Russian concerns. They've consistently been the aggressor in the region. Their concerns have time and time been proven to just be convenient lies.
No deal is better than this crap. Really it is. Its the Minsk accords all over again. A delaying tactic for Russia to recover and rearm.
And the fact the Trump administration is being duplicitous and acting in the worst kind of faith, ought to be enough for Europe to fully back Ukraine in walking away.
If Ukraine is forced to not join NATO, and not build up its military as it wishes, then its sovereignty is not being maintained. Sovereign states have full freedom of policy and association.
Which is not to say the US or Hungary or Slovakia would agree to admit them to NATO now, but governments come and go, and Ukraine is perfectly entitled to that ambition, just as it is for EU membership.
My formula for peace would be for a bilateral coalition of the willing, outside of NATO; GB, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Poland, Sweden, Finland, Norway, the Baltics, Romania, Canada, Australia, Japan and other Europeans, to say to Russia - we are going to station a massive force inside Ukraine at their invitation, that you have brought this on yourselves, that you will never be allowed to build up and attack like that again, that any attack on agreed Ukrainian territory will garner a full conventional response from the allied force, and that Russian assets in the seas and skies anywhere will become legitimate targets.
Thats the sort of robust action which only Putin understands, and the sort that will shorten his tenure in Russia. It also removes America from the equation, until it decides whose side it is on. And if it is on nobody's side, fine, we'll carry on without you.
Why is this necessary? Because I cannot believe the lesson of appeasement on the European continent 90 years ago was obviously not learned. Christ knows it is documented in the dried blood of 39 Million dead on this continent alone.
And if we don't stamp on Russia's toes right now, in 2025 and 26, we'll be right back here in 2030, 2035, 2040.....
Do you agree with Russia's 30 year old main concern?
So do we just look at Trump as a war profiteer?
He sees everything as a way to build up money and influence ,knowing that if he helps out his familiy and "friends" he will automatically get a cut?
Is there any sign his base understand this or will understand this or will have a problem when they do?
Do Ukraine's allies understand that all he cares about is lining his pocket and sharing the spoils of war?
And what exactly is that security concern. When has Russia ever been threatened on its borders since WW2?
If giving up possession of thousands of nuclear weapons, and previously enshrining neutrality in their constitution, was not enough to stop Russia invading, then neither will returning to the poison well of disarmament and neutrality do so again. The purpose of neutrality is not to protect Russia, but to allow Russia to do what it wants in Ukraine. Look at the puppet regime in Georgia oppressing its people, rigging elections, copying Russian crackdown on NGOs and the LGBT community.
