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brickstser69
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mulbot
Trump and the Americans have put 100 billion or something in to Ukraine in the past few years, plus military intelligence.
How much have we put in, and you say Trump is the greedy one? Like Vietnam and Afghanistan, I'd say he wants Ukraine to cease to be a drain on America. The Americans due to their military intelligence, satellites etc know which way the war is now going. They spend billions on knowing. And they know Ukraines population is much smaller than Russias, and the ground Russia took is now heavily mined etc.
They already had one of those before the war started, signed by people with more morals than Trump. It wasn't worth the paper it was written on. The only currency is more weapons. Any appeasement is just kicking the can down the road.
Can only be justified for Ukraine of there is a proper America-underwritten security guarantee…
We don't know the specifics so we can't judge it.
Trump's original deal idea was widely greeted with shock - If Ukraine didn't agree there would be no more support for Ukraine. If Putin didn't agree, then Trump would give Ukraine whatever arms it wanted.
This is a worse version of that.
Gluing everything we know so far - Putin gets whatever he wants, Ukraine gives Putin seized territories, Ukraine gives the US X mineral wealth to "pay for received weapons". In exchange Ukraine gets to never join NATO. Europe picks up the bill.
Again I would expect twists and turns, but as it stands:
If there's peace it comes at extraordinary cost to Ukraine. There is zero cost or punishment for Russia, only gains + a new strong relationship with the US + likely dropped sanctions
If there's no peace then Ukraine are blamed and have to pay minerals for any US support, whilst still getting invaded by Putin. Back at the status quo but worse.
I'm waiting for the catch for Russia, but there's nothing so far. That's an absolutely awful deal for Ukraine.
if he weren’t beholden to Putin that might happen.
100bn to get what? They're handing over 20% of the country after the loss of 10s of 1000s of lives. They shouldn't get a rex unless they continue to supply arms which they won't as Trump is Putins bitch.
Simple ultimatum from Trump…" Putin, end this war immediately, or I will" that should do it.. but unfortunately, Donald is highly to do it.
Can we all agree that Trump is greedy? Giving him what he wants and keeping the head down is precisely the kind of behaviour that will have him returning for more. Appeasement doesn't work with someone who doesn't have restraints on their greed.
Minerals agreement with the US: Ukraine insists on reducing the size of the fund from $500b to $100 billion, — Ukrainian media citing sources
Did I or did I not suggest this was Trump's tactic and how this might go? Tbh 100BN isn't the worst deal for Ukraine.
And he's complaining how an US ally (Ukraine) didn't surrender when they were invaded by their neighbours. It's pretty despicable.
I know we'll keep the head down, that is the best thing for a small country to do (certainly if alone, without back-up of others in such times).
If the US during Trump's term:
(i.e. exact same goals as Russian leadership, who hate us all, has had for 10 years or more?) it seems possible the giant US military bases get closed or US soldiers told to leave at some point (that is assuming the European electorates don't plump for the pro Trump parties etc. to govern first!).
It is headspinning how fast things are being upended with Trump II and the Republicans and I haven't digested it all fully, but unthinkable things may become thinkable.
Yes. Agree, agree, and agree. There is no hope of us maintaining mutually friendly relations with that US administration anymore after the last few days carry on and it's pointless going over there to be issued ultimatums and humiliated as will happen.
I'm surprised to be saying this as until recently I thought the looney lefties saying we should boycott it were just that.
I've changed my mind.
Not as a single entity but there should be robust push back at EU level. If every country plays their own game to mind their own arse we'll individually fall. But if they work as a collective with all statements through the commission then he can only attack the EU.
So for example, rather than Ireland saying Shannon is off limits the EU says no US military planes in EU airspace or on EU territory.
Macron and Starmer are making a huge mistake going to meet him individually. Our government are making a bigger one on Patrick's day. All communication for the foreseeable should go through the EU and all directives via the EU.
Oh, I'm not one bit afraid of a severe recession. And yes, - I don't want us having to go to war either.
But he's shown since re-election that he'll play as dirty as he can and that he cares not a jot for right v wrong or human lives destroyed.
No European country is going to sneeze right now and alert him to their existence.
His ability to do that is vastly overstated. And to be quite honest, I'd rather lose jobs and have a dip in the economy rather than watch citizens of this country have to go to war in a couple of years time.
We've have recessions and survived. There's no guarantees in war. Millions who died in WWII would have taken a recession over what they got.
Exactly none of what you quoted or wished for is going to happen.
Unfortunately.
Have you not been paying attention to Trump recently? He could shut this country down overnight if he wanted to. And if threatened or insulted, - he will. Time to keep the heads down and wait for him to get distracted by the next shiny thing.
And you will not be needing Shannon Airport also under the current conditions. Of course it will be made available to you , going forward, under the conditions that that it is available to other airlines/countries !!!!!!
Europe can afford to defend itself without US but needs more coordination, study says By Reuters February 21, 2025 12:47 PMBERLIN, Feb 21 (Reuters) - Europe needs to spend around 250 billion euros ($261.6 billion) annually in defence investments to secure itself without U.S. support, a sum the bloc could bear given its economic strength, according to a study published on Friday. This spending, equivalent to 1.5% of the EU's gross domestic product, would allow Europe to mobilize some 300,000 soldiers to defend itself against Russia, the study by research institute Bruegel and the Kiel Institute for the World Economy said…"In economic terms, this is manageable ... That is far less than had to be mobilized to overcome the crisis during the COVID pandemic, for example," Guntram Wolff, co-author of the study, said in a statement.
Europe can afford to defend itself without US but needs more coordination, study says By Reuters February 21, 2025 12:47 PM
BERLIN, Feb 21 (Reuters) - Europe needs to spend around 250 billion euros ($261.6 billion) annually in defence investments to secure itself without U.S. support, a sum the bloc could bear given its economic strength, according to a study published on Friday. This spending, equivalent to 1.5% of the EU's gross domestic product, would allow Europe to mobilize some 300,000 soldiers to defend itself against Russia, the study by research institute Bruegel and the Kiel Institute for the World Economy said…
"In economic terms, this is manageable ... That is far less than had to be mobilized to overcome the crisis during the COVID pandemic, for example," Guntram Wolff, co-author of the study, said in a statement.
It appears not all is lost.
I have seen an article in which it is mentioned that multiple Republican politicians have been meeting their electorates in town hall meetings and that they have been blowing up in their faces with very angry voters lashing out at them.
Tide turning?
I have just read the updated agreement proposal. It is Even Worse than the original proposal, instead of 50% profits, Trump now wants 66%
I now think Trump intentionally makes the deal worse so that Ukraine will have to reject it.
Whatever happens it is imperative that Europe isolates Russia economically and builds its armed forces. That way Russia won't be able to catch up. Their army has been all but destroyed and their economy/infrastructure is crumbling. Let them crumble.
He cant make a minerals deal with Trump. He already made one with Starmer. He has nothing left to barter with and that is why this issue is not moving forward.
as Trump says ‘ that Putin wants to end the war - with all this unnecessary killing ‘, towns, etc , being levelled to rubble, etc, etc.
so since you , President Trump are on talking terms with Putin please tell him that the quickest and QUICKEST. Way to end the war and IMMEDIATELY STOP all the killing is to F—k off back home to your side of the pre 2014 border.
Trump is asking for over 5 times the amount in return compared to what has been given to Ukraine. For a business man, he surely must see that’s a crap deal
But that's going to happen anyway isn't it? Trump is withdrawing military support from Ukraine and giving into Russia. It's not like if Zekensky gives him the minerals Trump is going to back Ukraine militarily.
Yes - legends.
Ukrainian soldiers dismiss Trump-Russia peace pushBy Vitalii Hnidyi and Valentyn OgirenkoFebruary 21, 20254:56 PM GMTUpdated a day agoDNIPROPETROVSK REGION, Ukraine, Feb 21 (Reuters) - Peace talks this week between Russia and the U.S. aimed at ending three years of war in Ukraine have not impressed front-line Ukrainian troops, who see no quick end to the fighting if Kyiv is left out of negotiations.Clutching an assault rifle, an infantryman who goes by the call sign "Rugbyist" recalled Ukraine's fierce resistance in the first weeks of Russia's February 2022 invasion, before Western support poured in, and suggested his country could do it again if needed.In any case, he had not placed high hopes in U.S. President Donald Trump standing up for Ukraine: "You can't be betrayed by a person you didn't expect anything from."Another soldier, known as "Pruzhynka", was equally dismissive of the Russian-U.S. talks held in Saudi Arabia and said he still plans to take the fight to the enemy when he returns to the front."Maybe they decided something over there - but that's their opinion," the 21-year-old, whose call sign means "spring", told Reuters at a training base in southeastern Ukraine."Ukrainians won't believe all that."
Ukrainian soldiers dismiss Trump-Russia peace push
By Vitalii Hnidyi and Valentyn OgirenkoFebruary 21, 20254:56 PM GMTUpdated a day ago
DNIPROPETROVSK REGION, Ukraine, Feb 21 (Reuters) - Peace talks this week between Russia and the U.S. aimed at ending three years of war in Ukraine have not impressed front-line Ukrainian troops, who see no quick end to the fighting if Kyiv is left out of negotiations.Clutching an assault rifle, an infantryman who goes by the call sign "Rugbyist" recalled Ukraine's fierce resistance in the first weeks of Russia's February 2022 invasion, before Western support poured in, and suggested his country could do it again if needed.In any case, he had not placed high hopes in U.S. President Donald Trump standing up for Ukraine: "You can't be betrayed by a person you didn't expect anything from."Another soldier, known as "Pruzhynka", was equally dismissive of the Russian-U.S. talks held in Saudi Arabia and said he still plans to take the fight to the enemy when he returns to the front."Maybe they decided something over there - but that's their opinion," the 21-year-old, whose call sign means "spring", told Reuters at a training base in southeastern Ukraine."Ukrainians won't believe all that."
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-soldiers-dismiss-trump-russia-peace-push-2025-02-21/
What Krasnov calls a 'peace' deal is just Ukrainian capitulation to all that Putrid desires. I hope it fails utterly. If it really was about real peace, I'd support it wholeheartedly.
Because otherwise the US will stop sending weapons (as per the package deal agreed by the previous administration), won't sell American weapons even if Ukraine comes with a fistful of dollars from the EU, and Musk will turn off Starlink for Ukraine (terminals were mostly bought by Poland, but the connection itself is paid for by the US MoD). It is an extortion.
Analysis of the originally proposed deal: https://www.csis.org/analysis/assessing-viability-us-ukraine-minerals-deal
Right now I think that Zelenskyy is very likely to sign some kind of minerals rights deal with the US. He is an ok negotiator himself, not the best, but better than Trump anyway. If he can get a deal where US companies have to provide the investment in exchange for some part of the profit, it could be a deal that Trump can sell to his followers as a win.
Why would Ukraine give the US their minerals in exchange for capitulation to Russia? This I don't get. If the US is walking away from Ukraine, why give them anything.
We're not looking to invade Russia just push them out of Ukraine. But we will squeeze them economically until they give up their nukes and reduce their military to a force that wouldn't take Estonia on their own.
Oh I agree heartily. To me it just shows how devoted Trump's followers are.
^^^™Ad hominum
