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The Digital Services Act 2024 [EU] ~ Social Media and You

corkie

The Digital Services Act 2024

The Digital Services Act 2024: Designated Comisiún na Meán as the DSC and invested it with the necessary powers to carry out its functions under the Regulation including powers of investigation, powers to impose fines, the power to issue compliance notices and orders to end infringements.

https://enterprise.gov.ie/en/what-we-do/the-business-environment/digital-single-market/eu-digital-single-market-aspects/digital-services-act/

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/71c6a-minister-coveney-announces-the-commencement-of-the-digital-services-act-2024/

This Act was made law here in February, but as far I can see it has yet to be enforced.

We had Micheal Martin ranting recently about Social Media apps and children.

Leading to this discussion.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122023960#Comment_122023960

Some other sites worth linking.

https://www.yoti.com/business/age-verification

https://www.mhc.ie/latest/insights/age-assurance-and-digital-services

https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/1333913?hl=en

So google has it already, do other social media apps have verified age restrictions in the sign up process besides clicking a button? Or because you need google/apple setup to download apps have you already proved age by that means?

Or will we be required to verify our age on things like X, Reddit, Facebook etc?

What about Boards it self, will this site also require more stronger verification of age?

Thanks for reading, hope this is the right forum for this thread?

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corkie

I will link the video mentioned above again here, as it was what sparked the creation of this thread.

https://twitter.com/MichealMartinTD/status/1779510400121290955

At first as non-parent adult, I wrote it off as another MM rant about a manufactured crisis.

As I can see now from the news been reported it is a serious matter for parents.

"To the social media companies our message is clear. Take concrete steps to get underage children off your apps or we will impose those steps on you." ~~ Micheal Martin

Don't be to quick write that off as bluster, EU Laws have already been enacted in February to deal with it. As linked in the opening post.

These laws have far reaching powers and will effect adults use of social media as well.

I'm of the strong opinion that Smartphones should not be allowed for under 16s, unless Parents are proactively monitoring the use with Parental Apps.

I was shocked to hear that you only need to be 13+ to be on TikTok. There is a program about it tonight on Primetime and The Committee on Children is airing on RTE News as I type.

I think Parents and their children are presently bypassing Age Restrictions that currently exist on the device and apps. On Android, under 16's you need a supervised google account for the app store to work.

I could probably say more here, but I will wait for replies, because I don't want to find myself in an echo chamber.

corkie

TikTok looking into Prime Time findings as 'matter of urgency'

Earlier, Taoiseach Simon Harris told the Dáil that social media companies "need to get real" about the impact harmful content has on the mental health of young people.
"And if they don't, we need to be ready to act," he added.
The comments come ahead of an RTÉ Prime Time programme which examines concerns published by researchers and advocacy groups about young teens' mental health being negatively influenced by content on TikTok
Mr Harris said that he will watch the programme "very closely this evening".

I will be watching PrimeTime myself tonight, should be an interesting program.

JP Liz V1

I believe cyber bullying has increased even leading to teenagers taking their lives by suicide

They need regulation, parents need to know what sites their kids are on, everyone now even 9 and 10 year olds have phones and likely on some social media platform

What age is too young for a phone?

That Primetime episode will be interesting, there is kid influencers on sites now also

roosterman71

I'm confused about this thread. Is the problem that you may need to provide ID to sign up similar to Revolut, or One4All cards with bigger voucher values?

Or is it that they social media companies are doing enough and the responsibility lies squarely with parents?

corkie

@roosterman71 Or is it that they social media companies are doing enough and the responsibility lies squarely with parents?

It is mainly about Social Media, and no the companies have not done enough and worries that The Digital Services Act will be taken to far and put restrictions on adult use of them.

Don't want to say or have it squarely on parents. But they have a role which is lacking in my opinion.

The Act is wide ranging so may have a role in the cards your mentioning, have not dug deeper into it. Age assurance was my main reason for the thread.

corkie

The prime time program was shocking indeed. Wondering have parents watching have woken up to it and are more concerned about what there under 16's are doing on Social Media.

Concerned raised that the DSA is not strong enough and still leaving it up to companies to set there own age restriction methods on there apps.

Privacy concerned people will not like the idea of a centralized Digital age verification site but unfortunately I can see something like that been implemented in the future if companies don't implement strong enough measures of there own.

Linked this below in the opening post.

https://www.yoti.com/business/age-verification

Wonder would user's be happy to use that system?

This problem is not new, it is as old having the internet on computers. I can remember when my young nephews and niece's where having a computer setup in the house and my advice to the parents was as follows: -

Keep the computer in a common area where you can watch and monitor its use, not in individual bedrooms. ~~ https://kidshealth.org/en/parents/net-safety.html

Should Parents Monitor Their Children’s Phones? – Controversial Question with Unequivocal Answer

roosterman71

Better verification is needed for sure. It would help 2 fold at least. 1) minimise age related issues and 2) minimise bots which are rampant and spreading false/misleading shite

corkie

@JP Liz V1 What age is too young for a phone?

First of all thanks for breaking the Ice on this thread. Thanked your post last night but forgot to reply.

Age for Smartphone use is a hotly debated topic. As I'm not a parent, it would be incorrect for me to start dictating advice to them, we seem to be setting up a Nanny State for that.

What's the right age to get a smartphone?

Data from Ofcom, the UK's communications regulator, show that the vast majority of children in the UK own a smartphone by the age of 11, with ownership rising from 44% at age nine to 91% at age 11. In the US, 37% of parents of nine- to 11-year-olds say their child has their own smartphone. And in a European study across 19 countries, 80% of children aged nine to 16 reported using a smartphone to go online daily, or almost daily.

"The majority of studies find no association between social media use and mental health," says Odgers. In the studies that did find an association, the effect sizes – both positive and negative – were small. "The biggest finding really was a disconnect between what people believe, including adolescents themselves, and what the evidence actually says," she says.

Edited the above with the comment on social media use and mental health.

Some children mature faster than others, so should be a parents decision. And then install parental apps and maintain responsible monitoring of the same.

What's a Good Age to Stop Monitoring Kids' Online Activity? Parents Weigh In

Ages 8 and 12 are also popular milestone ages; 11 and 9 are not—someone make something fun for 9-year-olds! From age 12 on, the numbers decline, but that’s likely because by that point kids have already cajoled most parents into handing over a permanent screen they can control.

How Google Accounts work when children turn 13 (or the applicable age in your country)

Even with that it varies from country, Ireland: 16+.

My main complaint with the Prime Time demonstration, they skipped that part of setting up a google device, for a child, for play store use and went straight to installing Tiktok.

Sam Russell

Why do 9/10/11/12 year olds need a smartphone? Is it so parents can communicate with them. A dumb phone will do that.

How much bullying goes on between these young kids goes on around the use of smartphone? The evidence is plenty - almost universal - either the bully or the victim has to sustain it. It has a huge effect of the victims.

How much screen time do these kids use on their own - probably in their own bedroom? Again, the evidence is that many use social media well after midnight. This is obviously detrimental their schooling and the normal development.

Does having a smartphone give access to porn? Well, again, evidence is that if you look for porn, the internet is where you will find in seconds.

I would ban smartphone in primary schools absolutely. Dumb phone are enough.

Age verification and identity checks should be mandatory for all.

corkie

I was wondering what kind of guidance advice was been offered to schools by Micheal Martin.

Possible will be from this website: - https://www.webwise.ie/

As the agency/body responsible for monitoring or enforcing the laws.

Something I should have linked in first post: - https://www.cnam.ie/online-safety/

Government press release in February: -

Minister for Education Norma Foley TD hosts social media summit to discuss online safety for children and young people

the introduction of a robust age verification system to ensure that social media services are not used by children under the age of 13
the effectiveness of controls in place to prevent access to harmful and inappropriate content
it was a priority of hers to support parents, teachers and school communities in their endeavours to help keep children and young people safe online.
Webwise.ie :- for the wide range of information and advice they provide through their Internet Safety Programme, webinars and more.

ISPCC says Prime Time report on dangers of TikTok for teenagers shocking but "no surprise"

The Irish Society for the Protection of Cruelty to Children (ISPCC) have said that the findings of an RTÉ Prime Time report discussing teenagers on TikTok last night was shocking, but also came as "no surprise".

I thought it was right response from them and linking the article as a followup on prior discussion in thread.

Edit:-

For anyone who didn't see the Prime Time show on TikTok. It is on the player now. https://about.rte.ie/2024/04/18/rte-prime-time-experiment-reveals-disturbing-content-recommended-to-13-year-old-tiktok-users-in-ireland/

corkie

This opening paragraph is my speculation and theories.

As the Digital Services Act was formulated, I believe during early days of COVID to tackle miss-information, wonder are EU Minsters and staff suffering from Long Covid. Creation of these Laws where probably brainstormed by them when they where in lock-down. Speculated on that in another post before this thread was created. Was also wondering where the EU got the power to implement these censorship laws? Did the public ever get to vote on them?

End of speculation.

At least there is another group keeping an eye on them when they tried to enforce stuff.

Following the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel, Thierry Breton wrote public letters to X, Meta Platforms, TikTok, and YouTube on how their platforms complied with the DSA regarding content related to the conflict and upcoming elections. The Atlantic Council's Digital Forensic Research Lab reported that Breton's letters did not follow DSA processes, and digital rights group Access Now criticised Breton's letters for drawing a "false equivalence" between illegal content and disinformation. ~~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Services_Act

Please keep Hamas discussion to the appropriated thread and not here. Just using it as example.

Looks like TikTok was in the news again, for their Lite app.

https://www.theregister.com/2024/04/18/tiktok_lite_eu_info_demand/

EU demands answers on money-for-views version of TikTok

A slimmed down version of the normal platform, Lite's Task & Rewards feature pays users the equivalent of a few pence per day for watching videos and engaging on the app.
According to TikTok, the maximum daily screen time eligible for rewards is one hour, while users will not be able to earn more than about €1 (£0.85) per day.
users can only earn rewards on videos suggested by their algorithmic feeds and not videos which they search for specifically.

Why anyone would want to do that for such little rewards is beyond me?

Front page news on the Examiner today: -

Children fed toxic content by social media algorithms, study finds

Children are being directed to dangerous, toxic online content by social media company algorithms
point to urgent and concerning issues for parents, teachers, policy makers, and society as a whole
highlight the ineffectiveness of social media platforms in protecting children and young people.
means ensuring age-appropriate safeguards are in place and working effectively "If the platforms will not do this, the State must."

Looks like the media here is really out to get the message across. I agree it is a serious worry for parents. But Micheal Martin calling it a Health Crisis is exaggerating and taking it a bit to far. What media storm has he created with this?

Just Like to Thank Mod @Quin_Dub for changing the tittle of this thread from: -

The Digital Services Act 2024 [EU] in Politics

The Digital Services Act 2024 [EU] ~ Social Media and You in Politics

Hopefully that title gives more meaning to thread and encourages more people to read and submit content here.

@roosterman71 Hope change in title makes the thread have more sense?

Just a gentle reminder this thread is in the Politics Forum, so please read the Charter before submitting posts.

corkie

Open this thread before finding this Thread on CA!

Should we regulate the internet? [Poll] in Current Affairs/IMHO

That thread has related discussion on ways and means to regulate the Internet. And luckily it is not governed by the Charter of this forum. So If you find a post in this thread that you want to reply to more freely, maybe embed/link the post in that thread or appropriate thread, and reply?

I posted in that forum a link about European Commission to stress-test election guidelines next Wednesday (24 April). It will be interesting to hear the results on that. Will post here when they release a statement on it.

Also replied to someone who replied NO, and I said it is to late, because the Laws have already come in to effect.

But is it to late, EU Elections are coming up and maybe we could question the politicians? On the topic and urge them not to over enforce regulation and take away our current internet liberties?

Open this thread in politics because I believe Micheal Martin made it political in the video linked earlier in thread.

I have been reluctant to post more in this thread because I don't want to be accused of soapboxing!

I also believe this thread is warranted and hope the issues raised get more traction.

It will be to late in a years time when regulations have been enforced to start complaining then?

Good chart on what DSA Changes!

https://twitter.com/sharpmelk/status/1781384232129962360

Large Online Platforms, which means boards.ie is probably not restricted by the rules as of yet? Don't think the site has the number of active members anymore? And is moderated.

corkie

How did we get to where we are now, with regards to social media?

I posted a picture of a book in this post in CA. Which is also embed in the first post above. Which included a counter argument against the contents of same. Book in question: -

'The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness.' By Jonathan Haidt which hit the No. 1 spot on the New York Times’ hardcover nonfiction best-seller list.

Is this pure American propaganda that our politicians have been using as bedtime reading matter?

The New Yorker had discussion with the Author about this book and previous ones.

Jonathan Haidt Wants You to Take Away Your Kid’s Phone

Jonathan Haidt is a sixty-year-old social psychologist who believes that your child’s smartphone is a threat to mental well-being.
He takes a history trip into how we got here.

^^^ Tip: - Open link in a private window to read, it is a long article.

What is happening now?

Suggestion in the UK for a 12 Hours school days? https://metro.co.uk/2024/04/21/teacher-wants-keep-students-school-12-hours-a-day-new-rules-20687304/

As mentioned above a stress test for EU Elections on Wednesday (24 April).

And the commission maybe going to enforce there rules against TikTokLite.

https://twitter.com/ThierryBreton/status/1782414979968139392

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thierry_Breton the current Commissioner for Internal Market of the European Union.
And the replies to his tweet are interesting.

What can we do?

Suggested in previous post, discussion with EU candidates who come canvassing? It has been pointed out to me there is flaws in trying that.

Irish politicians running for the EU Parliament won't have a clue what you're even asking them.
They vote along party lines depending on the political grouping, they are part of in the parliament.

Isn't still worth drawing there attention to it? It absolutely is. Just don't get your hopes up for a coherent answer! So be prepared to have answers ready, if they look for clarification.

Hope this thread has got people curious about it and informed on the matter?

Thanks for taking time to read.

corkie

In an earlier post, mentioned the DSA Stress-Test of platforms for EU Elections, seems there is no public feedback on the results of it. As there where not reports on earlier tests, I don't think we will have public feedback on it.

Last week the FG Party posted a video on 'Digital Age Of Consent' available below.

https://twitter.com/FineGael/status/1783121660549197877

Strange thing back in 2018, Fine Gael wanted to set the age of consent to 13, but lost the Dáil vote on it. Thanks to another boards member for pointing out that fact.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/government-loses-vote-as-dail-backs-16-as-age-of-digital-consent-1.3497921

Children's rights groups angry at Dáil vote setting digital age of consent at 16 (they wanted it to be 13).

“The digital age of consent is about the age at which young people can agree to the processing of their personal data,” Dr Muldoon said.
The protection it can offer is limited: it is not designed as a mechanism for protecting children from the multiple risks they may encounter in the online environment.

So why are politicians now using it to seek approval for EU Laws already implemented here in February?

Education Minister Norma Foley [FF] has asked the online safety commissioner to introduce and enforce “robust” age verification across all social media platforms. — as far as she is concerned — it is no longer tenable for social media platforms to “stand idly by”, and said the likes of TikTok, Facebook, and X must take responsibility for protecting younger users. ~~ https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41383918.html

It was reported on 17:30 Virgin Media news (8 mins approx).

Before anyone asks I am in favor of more rules to protect and restrict childrens online access, my worry is what adult liberates will be lost in the process of implementing tougher restrictions on the platforms?

Thanks for taking time to read.

corkie

Social media giants 'aware' of consequences of failure to stop election disinformation

Social media companies are “very conscious” that their platforms can cause “quite serious damage” to democracy and the implications “aren’t good” for them if they do not remove such material during the upcoming election campaigns, the country’s electoral authority has warned.
Art O’Leary, chief executive of the Electoral Commission, said that for a tech giant to be accused by the commission of impacting the outcome of an election would be a “huge” reputational issue for them.

FrontPage news on the Examiner today, plus 2 page spread on the inside. Coimisiún na Meán is mentioned as well as the Digital Services Act #DSA deep inside the 2 page article. But powers to counter disinformation have not been enacted yet.

They gave an example of disinformation they are trying to deal with: -

In a recent Germany election social media suggested first time voters that they should write your name on ballet paper in order to win a prize. Invalidating the vote.

A person replied on twitter that above article is a paid for propaganda by the government?

As mentioned in previous post the DSA Commission ran stress-tests, last month, on the platforms for EU elections readiness. As mentioned in last post, didn't think they post any public feedback on it, but the day after posting this appeared: -

https://twitter.com/ThierryBreton/status/1785246555710087280

Thanks for taking time to read.

corkie

I speculated that you may required a Digital ID to verify your age/ID on platforms. Looks like a EU Digital ID is already in the pipeline, and already made law in February.

MEPs back plans for an EU-wide digital wallet
Press Releases Plenary session ITRE 29-02-2024 - 12:59

An EU wallet to authenticate and access public and private services, and to store, share and e-sign documents
Privacy dashboard to give users full control over their data
The wallet is to be used on a strictly voluntary basis

Will it be voluntary however if you need it to access social media due to the 'Digital Services Act'? I suppose it is a bit like our MyGovID for accessing the services online but more EU wide.

European digital identity (eID): Council adopts legal framework on a secure and trustworthy digital wallet for all Europeans Council of the EU Press release 26 March 2024 10:30

The new European digital identity wallets (EDIWs) will enable all citizens to access online services with their national digital identification, which will be recognised throughout the EU, without having to use private identification methods or unnecessarily share personal data. User control ensures that only information that needs to be shared will be shared.

EU Digital Identity Wallets

The EU Digital Identity Wallet is designed as a convenient and secure method for European citizens and businesses to authenticate their identity, using their digital ID for both public and private sector interactions. Users can store various digital documents within the wallet, ranging from academic credentials to transportation passes, and use it for signing into private platforms, such as social networks. This approach is more secure and user-friendly than managing numerous passwords.

Your MEP's voted both this wallet and the #DSA into law, so maybe ask your candidates for EU Elections about them? No point making comments like this online "UN-elected officials have no legal right to infringe on our 'freedoms and privacy'".

In the news recently.

EU warns Microsoft it could be fined billions over missing GenAI risk info

The European Union has warned Microsoft that it could be fined up to 1% of its global annual turnover under the bloc’s online governance regime, the Digital Services Act (DSA), after the company failed to respond to a request for information (RFI) that focused on its generative AI tools.

EU starts proceeding against Facebook, Instagram Over Minor Protection

Facebook and Instagram parent company Meta faces a new investigation from the European Union over non-compliance with the Digital Services Act (DSA) in protection of minors.

TikTok completes review into harmful content following RTÉ story

TikTok has completed an "urgent review" of hundreds of videos displayed to would-be 13-year-old users triggered by a recent RTÉ Prime Time report into content on the app related to self-harm and suicide.

I also tuned into a webinar, this week, on 'Information Integrity around Elections' provide by MediaLiteracyIreland, some takeaways. And mentioned before 'Don't sign your name on ballots' to win a prize. Also in the run up to elections threat everything you read or hear as if it is the 1st of April! They also said the the commission in Ireland has no regularity powers to enforce the DSA guidelines as of yet.

Other good guides to #DSA I came across.

The Digital Services Act (DSA) explained ~~ Scroll down on page to read pdf, no need to download.

The Digital Service Act’s Red Line: What the Commission Can and Cannot Do About Disinformation

This still leaves room for many interventions against lawful disinformation whose goal is to improve the resilience of individuals against manipulation. As long as the Commission does not cross this red line, the arguments that it is becoming a Ministry of Truth are misplaced.

I would like to thank @djan for his reply to me in the controversial opinion thread! Just like to make you aware of this thread to maybe discuss the issue more?

As always! Thanks for taking time to read.

Seth Brundle

Mod: @corkie I'm not sure if I'm just seeing a ton of link dumps or what. It does seem that you are having a solo discussion posting multiple posts in a row here.

I'm extremely close to locking this so I'll wait and see if others are interested in joining you but have my hand hovering the lock button - for the moment can you please wait for others to post before continuing!

JP Liz V1

How would an EU Digital ID work for kids, minors etc.,

As a adult I find Facebook toxic myself, how can kids get on it, fake ages? Is Tik Tok the same, I think with Covid, Tik Tok became very popular

Seth Brundle

Mod: Moving thread to Current Affairs at OP's request.
Please note the CA Charter before posting

corkie

Well I hope the move out of Politics forum to Current Affairs might help this thread get more traction, with posters having less restrictive rules. Thanks @Seth Brundle

Are we seeing the decline of Social Media with the lack of people willing to contribute to the discussion?

See the 'X' Thread for peoples distaste of that platform and comments it is a cesspool. I wasn't very active on it until recently to get some views on politics. Even FB is dead for me because most friends I had on it stopped using it.

Don't use TikTok because thought was a young persons platform and not into sharing photos on instagram.

@JP Liz V1 How would an EU Digital ID work for kids, minors etc.,

Two links to try and and answer that.

Question is will we see the need for eIDAS been assigned to minors from date of Birth, or at what age?

"With the European Digital Identity wallet, all 🇪🇺 citizens will be able to have a secured e-identity for their lifetime." ~~ Thierry Breton

Yesterday: the Digital Identity Regulation enters into force. This means that the EU Digital Identity Wallet will become available by 2026

The upcoming EU and Local Elections should be a real life test for the DSA, wonder will we see some post's deleted or blocked from been viewed on the various platforms.

corkie

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41463652.html

This includes a prohibition on uploading or sharing the likes of cyberbullying, racism, child sex abuse material, terrorism or incitement to hatred or violence. It will also preclude these platforms having content that promotes self-harm or suicide, or content that promotes eating disorders.
The “standstill” period for the code expires on Wednesday, with Coimisiún na Méan indicating it will move to finalise and apply the code to video-sharing platforms with their EU headquarters in Ireland.

All above are good reason to have the platforms held accountable for that content.

The Online Safety Code submit to EU in May for admentents/approval to the Digital Services Act. The 'standstill' for implementing the code ends tomorrow (28th August). Why have the tech firms waited till now to start objecting to the rules of it?

https://www.cnam.ie/vod-code-consultation/

The Online Safety Code is what Simon Harris & Micheál Martin have been waiting for to be implemented.

I have refrained from posting in this thread, because I didn't want to see it closed for been only person posting on it.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122043107#Comment_122043107

I would call Boards.ie large with hundreds of thousands of accounts but the law specifically calls out "very large online platform" and "very large online search engine" not the former.

“very large online platform” means an online platform designated by a decision of the European Commission under Article 33(4);
“very large online search engine” means an online search engine designated by a decision of the European Commission under Article 33(4).

which is

4. The Commission shall, after having consulted the Member State of establishment or after taking into account the information provided by the Digital Services Coordinator of establishment pursuant to Article 24(4), adopt a decision designating as a very large online platform or a very large online search engine for the purposes of this Regulation the online platform or the online search engine which has a number of average monthly active recipients of the service equal to or higher than the number referred to in paragraph 1 of this Article.

Which is

1. This Section shall apply to online platforms and online search engines which have a number of average monthly active recipients of the service in the Union equal to or higher than 45 million, and which are designated as very large online platforms or very large online search engines pursuant to paragraph 4.

So would not seem to cover Boards.ie, actually…

https://www.eu-digital-services-act.com/Digital_Services_Act_Article_33.html

Large bottle small glass

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/2167702617723376

Evidence of the dangers in the USA.

https://youtu.be/csubiPlvFWk?si=x-MrJDH4Lf6JiEx3

I posted that previously on a recent thread.

The big social media platforms are completely out of control and are up there with the biggest monopolys in history.

They need breaking up and restriction.

It'll all be useless without adults and especially parents wising up to the dangers.

corkie

@Large bottle small glass Thanks for posting the Haidt video, will watch it after dinner. Posted about his book earlier in thread. Here is a review and counter argument to the book: -

https://www.vox.com/24127431/smartphones-young-kids-children-parenting-social-media-teen-mental-health

Edit: - Video 2 & half hours long. Don't know if I will listen to it all! 😯