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Child Item

Cares Allowance Means Test Interrogations

WillYizCopOn

I expect I may not be the only one experiencing this. My wife is a carer for her 87 yr old Mother. I know the stress and emotional roller-coasting this causes my wife 365 days of the year. It's a tough and thankless job. She receives the Carers Allowance for this. This is means-tested (which I think is crazy). Recently we got a letter telling us we are being reviewed for this payment.

They sent out a form with many pages for us to fill out which we did. Then they were asking for bank statements. I sent them a screenshot of my online bank with the account the queried and had the current balance on it. That was rejected. They said they wanted 3 months statements. Then I was thinking, what business is it of theirs what we actually spend our money on, isn't that very personal.

So I did send on the statements with the transaction text redacted and the amounts left intact which I think is the only relevant part they should see. Its a numbers game is it not?

Once again it was rejected and they threatened to withdraw the allowance if we didn't dance to their tune in whatever key the choose to play it in and whenever they felt like playing it.

Now, our statement text is sadly very tame indeed. But what if someone had bought from di*do.com or po*n.com etc. You see where I'm coming from? Surely they should be spared the indignity of some 'pen pusher' at a Government office seeing that.

Basically I want to take a stand on this. To me this is bullying at the highest level.

Has anybody any good advise here. Anybody in a similar situation?

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BrianD3

I know this thread isn't about homecare or the health service generally but I think it is still on topic. The situation with homecare and community care is a national scandal. As things are so bad, people are forced to take matters into their own hands i.e. give up work to care for relatives and become an unpaid amateur carer, nurse, GP, physio, OT, SLT etc. Then they get interrogated by the DSP over their carer's allowance of ~13k per year or in my case, the carer's support grant of 1850 per year.

Respite "care" is a disaster, people I know waited for ages and finally got respite in nursing homes a long distance from home. They came out after two weeks a stone lighter, dehydrated, depressed and with much poorer mobility than when they went in. Now it will take their carers weeks or months to build them back up again if it's even possible.

People also wait and wait and wait for homecare packages thinking that they will solve their problems to some extent. We have a homecare package (outsourced by the HSE to for profit private companies)and it costs the taxpayer a few hundred a week for a very limited, shambolic, unreliable service with often DANGEROUS "care" given by barely trained staff who can barely speak English. There are also many other problems such as rushing and timecard fraud to data protection (namedropping other clients and discussing their medical conditions which happens constantly)

I've made several complaints to both the provider and the HSE and have been fobbed off or ignored. I contacted Your Service Your Say and HSE safeguarding, both individuals I dealt with agreed that the situation was completely unacceptable, they contacted the people responsible and received "assurance" that they would improve - but given that this hasn't happened, seems like this was another foboff.

But nevermind all that - the important thing is that I prove my status as a carer by attending for interrogation at the DSP's offices (taking me away from my caring duties) for a miserable payment of 1850 per year.

CiDeRmAn

Mod Note: I understand that this is an emotive subject, I am a professional carer (nurse) and have also cared for family members. I also understand it is a full-time job and the carer deserves to be supported by the state.

However, there have been shades of comments here that seem to suggest that only Irish in this country face this unfair treatment.

It is entirely unconnected to the debate, and any such overtones will be dealt with, as per Boards.ie charter.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121577101#Comment_121577101

100% correct.

The patients being cared for are in most cases Irish born and bred people who have worked hard and paid taxes all thier lives, the people doing the job of caring for them are the most unselfish, kind and humble members of society. I personally know more than a few of them and I don't know how they cope with the stress.

Childrens allowance is not means tested, why in the name of God is the Carer's allowance means tested? It's a mickey mouse payment for a hugely responsible job that has no finishing time, it is literally a 24 hours a day 7 days a week job.

The absolute cheek of whoever thought it was a reasonable idea to conduct "reviews" after the carers have already passed a means test is astounding. They should be rewarding people who have been carers over a certain length of time not interogatting them.

How is it their or anyone elses business what any citizen spends their hard earned after tax money on? That's an invasion of privacy and should be brought to the attention of every politician in the country with the simple message to change it and change it quick.

The pen pusher that brought that policy in should get a high speed slap of a dirty adults nappy into the face, repeatedly.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121579088#Comment_121579088

She "proposed establishing a working group" - I'd say we'll be waiting at least 10 years for any change in that case. Universal basic income was introduced for artists - but the government knows that doing something similar for family carers looking after human beings is a different prospect entirely given how many of us there are. And why are there so many, because of the failings of this state when it comes to providing health and social care.

Hospitals are a shambles. Primary care is a shambles. Nursing homes are a shambles. Homecare is an even bigger unregulated shambles and "they" have been "talking" about regulating it for years. Heads of the Bill for homecare regulation were finally supposed to be ready by the end of 2023 - where are they. But but but the Great Financial Crisis. But but but COVID. But but but the influx of Ukrainian refugees.

Even when the Heads are ready, there will be more faffing about, more public consultations. Similar to the situation with carer's allowance means testing, the government, DOH and HSE know that homecare is a massive sh*tshow - and you can't regulate a sh*tshow while trying to pretend that it isn't a sh*tshow

WillYizCopOn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121578935#Comment_121578935

Lets hope this comes to fruition.......

“We are not only providing more funding, but Minister Humphreys also proposed establishing an Interdepartmental Working Group with the Department of Health to examine and review the entire system of means testing for carers payments. I personally hope this is the first step towards the future abolishment of the means test and a basic income for full-time carers.

from here

https://www.finegael.ie/budget-2024-recognises-the-important-role-of-carers-in-our-society-currie/

BrianD3

I don't get carer's allowance as I don't pass the means test due to my savings. I get the non means tested carer's support grant (1850 per year for providing full time care) and the DSP interrogated me over my eligibility for that. The application form that I completed and signed as factual and the medical report from the GP obviously wasn't good enough for them, I had to attend an interview and explain in person the basics of caring to an inspector who clearly didn't have a notion.

Also, getting the cost of living increase out of them was like getting blood out of a stone. Very poor service, people not ringing me back while others wanted to waffle on the phone "ah aren't you great being a carer" with others wanting to know how much savings I had as they were incredulous that I didn't pass the means test for Carer's Allowance. A highly unprofessional organisation/department IME and people who engage in actual social welfare fraud would run rings around them.

WillYizCopOn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121577544#Comment_121577544

Oh Yes, that and a a lot more. I've had a good sleep on it now. I'm going to get a shovel (scrap that), a mini digger and bury all my principals as deep as they will go down and concrete it over in case they ever try to escape again. Shut down my business (which I was struggling to operating even part time due to ill health), go on disability and take-take-take whatever comes with that. Thanks for all your advice. I needed that dose of reality.

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121577406#Comment_121577406

I've heard my grandfather say it, I've heard my father say it and I have witnessed it for years and we have actually relied on the system in recent years. The faces in governments change but nothing really changes. Rich people get richer and poor people get poorer.

I will give you a laugh. Imagine this. A terminally ill person is suffering unimaginable pain and discomfort. The GP prescribes pain relief. The medical card doesn't cover it. The pharmacist applies to a hardship fund. The hardship fund doesn't cover it. The GP applies to the hardship fund. The hardship fund doesn't cover it. And round and round we go.

Welcome to Ireland, where everything is free unless you are Irish. We have given up wasting the time and the diesel going to vote for someone to become a millionaire.

The Phantom Jipper

What is your plan then? Are you going to abandon your principles and send them a bank statement without the text tippexed out?

WillYizCopOn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121577429#Comment_121577429

MMM I wonder if the the no-nose allowance is means tested. Good Night

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121577376#Comment_121577376

Look, you're cutting our own nose of to spite your own face.

DSP are not going to conduct the review on YOUR terms. It is on their terms.

Until you give them what they are requesting, (an unredacted statement) the will not complete the review. There is nothing personal in it, it is the same for everyone.

Again, the ball is in your court.

Have a nice evening.

WillYizCopOn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121577258#Comment_121577258

"there was nothing we could do only comply". How about go to your local TD/ Councillor. Start an online campaign to have the means test abolished. Bring it to the attention of the media etc......??

WillYizCopOn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121577246#Comment_121577246

As I said previously, they have the statements. They can see the debits, credits figures . Lodgements and outgoings as clear as day. Also as I said if they needed any explanations to any entry I'm ok with that. As for the rest of that post...Really.???...Are you suggesting we shouldn't challenge any decisions our Government makes? That's extremely worrying. Take it lying down? Jump? How High Sir? Sickening!!

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121577211#Comment_121577211

Our review took six months and a payment was suspended until the requested information was supplied. They were the rules and there was nothing we could do only comply.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121577115#Comment_121577115

Lets deal with the here and now.

Currently the payment is means tested, and unfortunately, the applicant doesn't get to decide what is relevant to the means test / review or what the qualifying criteria is. DSP do.

And again, they don't care what you spend in Tesco, or on Amazon. It's lodgements they look at.

Currently, your choices here are either cooperate and give them what they need to process your application (or review) or lose the allowance. It's really that simple.

No amount of arguing back and forth or railing against DSP's processes will change that.

Best of luck.

CrookedJack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121577183#Comment_121577183

Ok so it's about earning it. If you were a billionaire, it would be much less of a hardship for your family for one of you to care for your relative, than it is now. In that case would you not be doing less to earn it?

Similarly, if you had to work three jobs so your wife was able to mind someone full time would you not be earning it more?

Isn't that just another argument for a means test?

Eoinbmw

Being a full time carer is a bloody job and a full time job at that it's a disgrace that you are means tested to get paid for it!

WillYizCopOn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121577173#Comment_121577173

I have nothing to hide but I do have strong principles. As for your second statement: The Government knows well that if you apply for Carers Allowance you are a caring person as my wife is. Our option is by far the most difficult. The other option is that we would be richer, my wife way less stressed but her Mother dumped in a home. We are compassionate people. The Gov are simply preying on compassionate people!! Easy pickings

WillYizCopOn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121577137#Comment_121577137

You don't get it. This is not about needing it. It's about earning it. So by that reasoning anyone should only get paid what we need not what we are worth?? I shouldn't say that too loud cuz they'll be at that next.

So how do you work? Where do you get the time to do both. One must suffer!!

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121577011#Comment_121577011

If you and your wife were billionaires you would have the means to support yourselves and would not be eligible for state support.

If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about. If you are not happy ask the state to mind mammy and the wife can go to work

CrookedJack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121577115#Comment_121577115

But can you not see that that is not practical? If there's no means-test then there will be less money for you and others who truly need it, as the same amount will have to be spread to those who don't actually need it.

Also, if there is no means-test simply because you don't want to comply with their rules, then wouldn't it also be fair for me to remove other requirements I didn't like? I work and also spend a lot of time caring for my elderly parents, why don't I get the same amount as a full-time carer, why would we keep that rule but not the one you don't like.

Silly, no?

WillYizCopOn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121576891#Comment_121576891

I'm open to them asking for detail on anything they regard suspicious. Doesn't mean they should have a panoramic view of my spending habits

WillYizCopOn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121577058#Comment_121577058

They can see very well the debits and credits (in figures) over the last 3 months. No big withdrawals or lodgements. Its normal stuff like Tesco shopping a bit on amazon etc. I redacted this as I see that as not being relevant to the purpose of means testing. I have no problem if they asked me for details of a particular transaction. If you think I'm nit-picking, it's only because they are! And as I said previously I really don't think we should be means tested at all!!

CrookedJack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121577101#Comment_121577101

That's a nice slogan.

I certainly agree they are doing extremely important work, that is a very valuable contribution to our society. I'd definitely be in favour of more state support for them, both financial and non-financial.

Eoinbmw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121577061#Comment_121577061

Carers are supporting the state!

CrookedJack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121577011#Comment_121577011

You're not being shafted. You're being overly dramatic. You're being asked to show your means, to get a means-tested payment. You now say the state should support you, no matter how much you earn, which is silly.

The state will support you, but you must satisfy a means test. The state will also care for your mother if you can't or won't. Those two facts are not connected, no matter how much you'd like them to be.

You can get your payment once you do the necessary and provide the required information. No one will care about your dildos or porn or anything else, you need to stop taking the test personally as it is the same for everyone. And, more importantly, It is for all our benefit that they do the means test

Also, in point of fact, I never said the government support you. The government has no money, the state is you, me and everyone else - we are supporting you.

[Deleted User]

OP, DSP don't care what you spend your money on. That is not the purpose of asking to see bank statements.

The purpose is to determine that you have no other undeclared source of income.

I can tell you now, unless you comply, they will stop your wife's allowance.

The ball is in your court.

WillYizCopOn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121576877#Comment_121576877

Please stop saying the Government is supporting us. It simple accountancy as already stated. It's the other way round. Even if I was a billionaire a billion times over it should make no difference to my wife getting this payment. She cannot earn her own money with the hours She does with her Mum. That right to go out and earn money is not there. It would be if She put her Mum in a home where the State would have to foot the care home bill. By doing the most caring and humane thing we are being shafted!!

Ginger83

I'm just as frustrated but my frustration is aimed at how little the payment is. I can understand the job seekers rate as this is a temporary payment but carer allowance can be very long term and the rate is insulting.

WillYizCopOn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121576854#Comment_121576854

Well as it happens, there are groups/TDs and Councillors coming round to my way of thinking. Here is one report https://familycarers.ie/media/3116/estimating-the-cost-of-abolishing-the-carer-s-allowance-means-test.pdf. There are councillors on my local radio station regularly condemning what is going on here