How do people feel about this one? Will it be short and sweet?
Mod warning:
https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121425200/#Comment_121425200
Yeah they give their opinion on the deal to their members.
Can the union come back with a deal and recommend it be rejected? As in this is the best that is being offered but we don't think it is good enough but it has to be put to a vote anyway. Or if it's not deemed good enough they just recommend industrial action as the response?
Talks going on now, I think they want them to be short. Hopefully then hammer out a deal asap.
I didn't realise my job was to entertain you.
And that's what you do every time. "I'm too good for this" and walk away. Move goalposts ad naseum.
Do the government do anything during the balloting? No. Talks concluded on August 31st. Negotiations are done. Nobody is arguing with that....except you. You won't even accept that one. Incredible.
Irrelevant if i was here last time or not.
I didn't realise the Grinch celebrated Christmas. Enjoy your shopping. Must be hard handing over the cash with the injustices that you see everyday.
anywhere that is designated a rent pressure zone at this stage should be included in RPZ Salary..
the problem in this country is not pay .. its inflated property prices/ rents, inflation and taxes
but pay will have to rise now to keep up
Honestly, you're just boring me now.
You're now reduced to inventing arguments where there were none, until you weighed in and embarrassed yourself.
And then dragging them out ad nausem.
No one was arguing about whether the current deal had expired or not or was putting a specific number on how many months before it does should negotiations start - only that they could have started sooner. The rest was all YOU.
Spare me the personal insults also. I've been on this thread since it started, I don't seem to remember you being here last time around and everything I predicted last year has been proven correct so far. You need to accept that it's not always an opinion, or a debate, some thing are just fact, and I work off facts.
As I said to you before, you should stick to what you know - which you said is the education sector and not the Civil Service.
Also a deal isn't done until it's balloted on and accepted by the members and if you think they can do all that in one month from negotiation to ballot box then you're deluded.
You have a nice day now. I'm going christmas shopping. 🎅🎄
Let's not rewrite history. I know when the dail does and does not sit. I said (or was implying) the relevant Ministers are busy preparing the budget in September to negotiate a new pay deal. The pay deal is a massive drain on their resources. That is obvious. Whether the Dail is sitting or not is irrelevant. You don't want to accept that.
The current pay deal HAS NOT EXPIRED. You won't accept that.
Negotiating a new deal before one is over is normal. 6 months before one is over in the middle of a strange inflationary period makes no sense from either side. You won't accept that.
You're argument that 'they negotiated it in September last year' is wrong. They didn't. It was concluded by then. That timeline is important because you know what the minister(s) was doing in September? Preparing the fuxking budget. Negotiating an extension to a pay deal because there was a review clause was triggered by the Unions meant the government had to renegotiate. The situation this year and last year were different. You won't accept that.
You're casually avoiding that a review clause was activated last year. That makes this year andast year very different. You won't accept that. I'm assuming you didn't know or forgot it was because of a review clause.
The pay deal was set to expire December 2022. There were no negotiations for a new deal at the point you indicated. You won't accept that.
The Unions are the experts. It's not bad planning or bad work, there are reasons it's happening now. You won't accept that.
I have limited knowledge of how grades in the civil service work. I'm willing to admit what i do and don't know. I like how you started by not giving your experience... You work in the civil service. You have no knowledge of the other side. I am assuming you've never worked in a union, i have. You have never worked for a TD or Minister, i have (only in the summers and a long long time ago when I was young). You have absolutely no idea what these people do. You have no idea how the talks work. You understand the pay talks effect people outside the Civil Service?
You're fixated on belittling other posters because you know more and everyone else is wrong and inexperienced. It's arrogance, not intelligence or experience. Point out where I'm factually wrong. Argue the points. Otherwise it's just opinion and other people can have a different opinion to you. This isn't a forum for those that agree with Ezeols opinion only.
I've never said when I think the negotiations should have started. You're taking a quote out of context there but for clarification, negotiating a new deal 6 months before the current one expires at a time when inflation is rampant, and right before the budget when the relevant department is very busy preparing for the budget, is bonkers. It's not going to happen. It makes no sense for either side to do that. You won't accept that.
Let's get to the point, bashing unions because they didn't start 6 months early is bizarre. They have started a month before the end of the deal. They might have a new deal agreed before the current one expires. You won't accept that.
I've never once in this thread seen you accept someone else's view. If you can provide your logic and rationale as to why, I'm happy to change my opinion. You don't debate like that. It's your opinion and everyone else is wrong.
Bren, let me refresh your memory - it was you who weighed in on the timings of negotiations, when you made some big statement about negotiations not happening in September because "Ministers are too busy before the Budget" and "July /August being too early" because of possible changes to inflation.
I, amongst others, pointed out that negotiations on new deals always start before the current deal expires, but you don't seem to want to accept thisd.
So, to be pedantic, you're making a huge deal out of the negotiations last year being on 29th /30th August - so close to September, that it's literally ridiculous that you're arguing over it.
I'm also confident given your self-confessed limited knowledge of the Civil Service (and that you didn't seem to know that the Dáil is in recess from mid-July to mid-September each year) that you are not as familiar with ministerial functions and budget preparation as you think you are.
But, to get to the actual point, your bone of contention which led to all of the above seems to be "why would they start negotiations when the current deal hasn't even expired yet?"
Well, following your logic, the negotiations shouldn't be starting until January 2024 at the earliest.
Yet they have already started. Why?
The answer - because it is normal that negotiations on a new deal begin well in advance of a current deal expiring. Which is all anyone tried to tell you.
Ministers relevant to the pay talks busy with the budget.
So they didn't negotiate in September. You were wrong.
They didn't negotiate a new pay deal it was the activation of clause and the government had no alternative but to enter talks to renegotiate the deal.
The current deal is still in effect and does t expire until the end of the month.
Do you want to double down again? Or does your arrogance sorry "experience" indicate you know more then me? Btw, what is your experience? SFA. Years complaining.
I trust the unions are doing their job instead of complaining when they should or shouldn't have entered talks. Thank God people like you are nowhere near the talks. I want a deal.
I think along with a pay rise the unions should be pushing for an extra allowance for those working in major urban areas like Dublin , Cork and Galway similar to what happens in the UK . A guard , nurse, teacher etc working in rural Mayo or Cavan will have a much higher disposable income after paying bills than a colleague on the same wages in South Dublin for example as accommodation and everything else is so much more expensive. It might make it easier to attract staff into areas struggling to fill for example teacher vacancies or to recruit guards . Would be recruit guards couldn’t consider Dublin now unless living with relatives
The article discussed headline pay but the applied real world factors showing that relative to EU our nurses are less well paid, in actual terms.
Cherry picking tends to be frowned upon
It's Friday afternoon, and I couldn't be arsed to keep arguing with you.
You're only exposing your own inexperience and lack of knowledge here, yet again.
If you want to be pedantic, the talks in 2022 broke down on 17th June, resumed on 29th August, and concluded in the early hours of 30th August. Members were balloted in September, before the Budget.
Also, the Dáil is in recess from mid-July to mid-September, each year.
The Ministers must be so busy on their holliers.
I meant increase not increment.
The current deal has not expired. They negotiated an extension to a deal after activating a review clause. They did not enter negotiations for a new deal last year.
You're comparing apples and oranges. Again, the current deal is still running. It expires at the end of the month. They've started before the current deal expires.
You probably mean increase and not increment. I never said anything about entering discussions before the final increase but they literally did just that last year. So its not quite as mind blowing as you seem to imagine.
An increment is an addition employees receive, usually annually, on the anniversary of their start date for a fixed period.
There's no excuse for only getting going in December.
No, you think I'm wrong. Repeatedly stating the same thing doesn't change my opinion. Other people can have a different opinion to you as alien a concept as that may be to you.
When the unions activated the review clause forcing a renegotiation? And those talks concluded in August. They didnt negotiate in September. Bit different isn't it?
The minister for finance is a bit busy in September alright for obvious reasons.
I like how you avoided that the current deal has not expired and that they are negotiating before the current deal expires as you want them too.
Oh just stop with the doubling down.
Also amused at you thinking Ministers are "too busy" in September.
I don't see how that's clear at all. Pure arrogance.
Just more of the "i don't agree with your opinion so youre wrong narrative" that is always present on this thread.
If the unions agreed a deal in July and inflation had gone the other way everyone would be up in arms with how stupid they are.
The current deal expires at the end of the year. A new deal could well be agreed before the current one expires. You're complaining about something that hasnt happened yet. Of course, you don't care.
We clearly know more than you, because you're completely wrong. Stop now, before you dig yourself in any deeper.
Also, the final installment (NOT increment) under this Agreement was on 1st October, 2023.
Do you actually know what you're talking about? Most people in this thread have no idea how the negotiations actually work. Yourself included.
You're just bashing unions. We hadn't even received the final increment but you want the unions to go off and negotiate for 2024? The government would have rightly told them where to go.
There's absolutely no reason to have started this process earlier then they have. There won't be another increment for months.
Well what where they doing in June, and September 2022 then - which I might remind you, was also right before the Budget?
What they're doing now, is using delay tactics.
And what are they doing now? The deal hasn't expired.
The government are not going to negotiate in September right before the budget. The ministers are too busy. July/august is too early.
What's hard about it? A deal doesn't have to expire before you start negotiating.
They could have started back in September.
They are so predictable at this stage.
I hate responding but honestly have you really any idea what you are you talking about? Its standard practice.
Posters here who are rural have said they would oppose it too.
Considering the last deal hasn't expired yet, its hard to start negotiations earlier. Bashing unions for no reason.
Just another failure by the Unions? December and they're only starting talks like. How's that for representation.
looks like the government have played this beautifully ..
give away everything 14.2 billion to social welfare recipients
wait till very end of year for inflation to hopefully drop and recession to kick in to claim inability to pay for impact of massive cost of living increases
Latest CSO figures confirm economy in recession
will the voting workers buy it is the question?
Posters in that Teaching & Lecturing thread I posted are mostly not opposed to it even if not Dublin themselves.
Given the self-serving grasping and petulance which was revealed in my union's rural membership though during the decentralisation fiasco, they'd oppose it out of pure spite.
Oh lordy , dublin allowance is a big bugaboo with civil and public servants.
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