How do people feel about this one? Will it be short and sweet?
Mod warning:
https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121425200/#Comment_121425200
Call me a wacko communist or whatever.
But if we want public services to exist in Dublin, public servants should be paid enough to live near Dublin.
Thank fcuk.
Didnt even bother reading all that bile. "Mentall ill 7 year old". You have got something wrong with your life. Blocked for future.
For the third time, you didn't say nearly doubles without one promotion.
You said guaranteed to double or treble. Full stop.
Now, you're trying to claim that what you really meant is "A COs salary is guaranteed to double or treble, provided they get a couple of promotions along the way". This isn't what you said, you're changing the goalposts mid-argument because your claims have been shown to be false, and you're losing the argument. Also, it's a fecking ridiculously stupid argument to make. The private sector equivalent, which you are still claiming doesn't exist remember, is "A street sweeper's salary is guaranteed to treble if they get promoted three or four times over their career". Yeah, course it does Einstein. Everyone's does, it's called getting a better job.
There is no way for a COs salary to treble or quadruple. There is, if they get promoted but that's now not a COs salary any more now, is it? Its also not a guarantee they get promoted, but that's besides the point. John, Mary and Frank are all COs in 2001. Frank and Mary get three promotions each up to AP level by the year 2025. John gets zero promotions. Does John's wages treble or quadruple? No. They don't even double. Meanwhile, John's brother David has been working in a supermarket the last 25 years and his wages have gone up 4 and a half times what they were while John hasn't even doubled.
This is what people are trying to tell you, but you can't get into your skull. The whole crux of your argument is that this doesn't happen in the retail sector. This 100% does happen in the retail sector, all the time, everywhere. You have been shown facts and figures which prove this, which you haven't even addressed in the slightest, and you're still getting confused. So not only is your claim that growth in the PS is guaranteed while the private sector have to struggle, it has been proven to you that the OPPOSITE is true, lower paid private sector wages have increased 4.5 times while public have increased less than double, and STILL you won't let go.
You're now talking about inflation of the Quinnsworth wages which hasn't been taken into account, while you blindly ignore the fact that inflation hasn't been taken into account for the COs wages from that period either. You can't take it into account on one side and then not do the same for the other without looking like a complete dope.
If EO wages kept up with the min wage increases over the last quarter century, they'd be on 80k starting salary. Instead it's barely over 33k. This blows your entire argument out of the water, you haven't a leg to stand on. The more you keep banging this drum, though, the more everyone realises that you don't know what you're talking about.
Don't bother replying, I'll not be answering any more of your idiotic, ill-educated, rambling, incoherent and contradictory nonsense any more.
That Garda article was absolute horseshit. They carefully chose the period of comparison to include the backdated pay rise. They also included Garda overtime and shift allowances. You can't and shouldn't compare what someone earns for their 60th hour a week with someone else's 35th and last. You also can't compare what someone earns at 3AM on a Friday night with what someone else earns at 3PM on a Tuesday afternoon.
Teachers are leaving Dublin in their droves because they can't afford to live there - either for a more rural area or out of the country. Interesting thread on Teaching & Lecturing forum here
https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058297863/school-resignations-and-recruitment-problems-2023-2024#latest
Yep i said the same and talked about doubling and trebling starter wages but apparently thats untrue. Completly agree about the dole , it is a tiny issue in this country but its so emotive for so many. The teachers emigrating are largely heading to a tax free zone or Oz which is nearly a rite of passage at this stage , we cant and nor should we compete with that ,they are very well paid for the hours they work- what we can do there is actually offer permanent jobs/hrs to young teachers. Yeah their unions are bonkers , will sell out the newer members no bother. Yeah i agree re the unions , i think a one year deal of anything near 10% would be great.
Best paid sector per hour in Ireland? There was also a recent article about the Gardai being the highest paid , the overall sentimemt was well they work for it , they do the hours. Surely the inverse must be true for Teachers.
You can't counter statistics and facts with a meandering rant.
I don't understand the dole comparison. When you start in the Public Sector you're starting a career with the potential to move up grades and significantly increase your salary. If people want to stay on the dole with that quality of life, its such a minority in this country, I really don't care. The majority on the dole need it and I am not going to use their ok social welfare to manufacture an argument. I hate that attitude in this country. I don't deal with CO's or see their lives on a day to day basis so I can't really comment if they deserve a pay rise or not. I don't see it so I don't know.
I do know there are huge recruitment and retention problems with teachers, post-docs, and other areas of education. Something needs to be done about that whether that be in terms of pay or working conditions. I think teachers earn a good wage with good other benefits (the holidays) but they're leaving the country and we need to address that. The same, I am assuming is true for CO's (in terms of recruitment not that they're leaving the country). One of the issues for teachers is that their Unions are batshit.
Am I realistic about what we can achieve? Sure. Do I think we will get 15% over 3 years? No. Do I think we will get something that makes up for the mismatch in inflation from the last deal and over the next year? No. Hence, its very likely I will vote to reject the deal. That is only because I am comfortable enough and don't need the money so will reject it on principle. However, I won't judge anyone for "making themselves poorer" or slam the Unions. They're not as strong as I'd like them to be but **** me we are a lot better with them. Their strength is a reflection of how strong their members are imo.
Thats fair enough , but i think like myself you are probably a realist about the situation. No poxy dole comparisons , understanding the concept of starting salaries etc and that we arent going to be getting some 15% increase.
Correct. I am not happy with my wages being eroded by inflation. I don't think anyone public or private should be happy about that or accept it.
What are you on about. Off topic too.
Yeah, know your place unless you're a member of the smart elite.
More absolute condescension.
Some people are just never happy with their lot!
Should be renamed the public pay bickering thread!
They are starting back tomorrow according to Rte but yeah bit of a weird start , mon afternoon adjourned till friday haha
Given they adjourned (on Monday) the talks after just one afternoon, until "later in the week" and Thursday just went past workout a peep - chances are not high.
Yeah it would be difficult to figure out.
I wonder wbat the average promotions are in someones civil service career?
That would be quite difficult to "average", as promotions happen a lot faster now than they did when I joined the service (1986). How promotions are made has also changed (used to be percentages of internal and external) and there are a lot more opportunities to move up now, (esp. open competitions which I think run on average every 2 years).
Indeed, even the parent department you were assigned to had a huge impact on how fast you could move up. Bigger departments (e.g Revenue) typically meant more chances of promotion internally.
Not to mention a few embargos along the way and EO was the highest entry point for admin staff for a long time. (Can't remember for professional / techncial grades).
But it wasn't at all uncommon for someone to be stuck at the same grade for 10/ 15/ 20 years.
Yeah Cos salary nearly doubles without one promotion in their whole career. There is wonderful opportunity for salary growth in the Cs basically double is a given and then treble and quadruple very possible! And more so again when you dont bother with inflation like your own quinnsworth analogy! I Wonder wbat the average promotions are in someones civil service career?
Right here. Guaranteed to double or treble their salary.
When pushed, you started talking about COs, Eos and AOs.
Jesus they were paid good mula back then. When did i say cos could nearly double or treble their salary?
I dont think a deal being agreed before Christmas is likely.
I think it is much more likely the discussions will drag on until late February/March, then a month to ballot members, then it will be implemented around May/June. I think the Government will likely "back date" any deal to January first with a lowball percentage. I think people will end up voting in favour of that looking at the one off "bonus" of back pay. I imagine that is the Governments ploy. It worked before so it will likely work again IF the Unions recommend accepting the deal.
Agreed, it's a silly argument alright. It is YOUR argument, though, you do realise that, yes?
You're the one who said the COs can nearly double or treble their wage over their career, when they can't.
You're the one who said retail can't do the same, when they can do even better.
Now you're trying to claim the arguments which counter your points are absurd, when it's clear as day that you haven't done your sums.
In 1998, A CO was on £191 per week, or €243 roughly. In order to keep up with minimum wage (x4.4, thanks @Charles Babbage), that would have to have increased to €1,067 per week, but instead it's at €510, less than half (47.7%) what it would be had it kept pace with the retail sector.
An EO was on £15,736 or €20,000. In order to keep up with Tesco/Quinnsworth, that should be €80,000 but instead it's at less than €35k, or about 44% of where it should be. And let's not forget, this is before benchmarking and everything else that was seen as exorbitant from outsiders looking in.
Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/factfile-1.198408
No matter which way you slice it, the private sector has far outstripped the public in terms of increases over the past 25 years and you are blue in the face telling everyone that the exact opposite is true. You've been proven incorrect. Again.
I would guess not a chance before christmas , March might be still a realistic uplift date but probably only if its a short term deal.
And what was a cos salary while you were in quinnsworth. Silly argument taking inflation into account. Im comparing them in the sense you are better off in the civil service than working at a till or on the dole. Its very obvious , not sure why you have such a problem with it.
So is there any chance do people think an offer will be made for us to vote on prior to Christmas or will it be the new year? If agreed do people think March will be the first stage for any uplift?
I'm afraid your sums are not correct, IR£2.02 in Euro is €2.57. So €11.30 is actually 4.4 times the pay then.
The general price index (according to CSO) is 1.75 times that of 25 years ago, so people are better off now on minimum wage type rates.
I worked in Tesco when it was still Quinnsworth, pay was £2.02 an hour. In Euro, that's €3.60, and min wage is now €11.30, which is more than triple what I was getting in Euros 25 years ago. So yeah, it did happen in small, unskilled, entry level retail min wage jobs.
Jobs which you are tying to compare to teachers and AOs, that require degrees (an honours degree in the case of an AO).
It didnt where i worked in banks/insurance. Maybe smes where you become more valuable. But that nearly always leads to promotion/more responibility.
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