How do people feel about this one? Will it be short and sweet?
Mod warning:
https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121425200/#Comment_121425200
I would think a deal for between 12 to 24 months, my guess would be 18 months in duration. An election in late 2024.
If its 18 months deal, I would imagine 3% in March 2024. Another 2.5% in October 2024. And a final 2.5% in March 2025. Total of 8% over 18 months.
If its 24 months deal, I would imagine 3% in March 2024. Another 2.5% in October 2024. Another 2.5% in March 2025 and a final 2% in October 2025. Total of 10% over 24 months.
The Unions simply must deliver this time around. They are played by the DPER negotiators time after time.
I think there might be something in Jan? What do people think is a realistic offer and what do you think would be accepted? My guess is around 7%
According to the IT, it won't be concluded for another few weeks at the earliest as the Govt is tied up with budget stuff for the next week or so. Seems the focus is on pay rather than other stuff which is good to hear
https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/09/28/public-sector-pay-talks-set-to-run-beyond-budget-following-slow-start/
2% March 24, 1.5% Oct 24, 1.5% March 25 maybe?
Easily. Don't make it an allowance, make it similar to the credit for clothing for certain jobs, run it through revenue, define it as emergency service worker (Gardai, Nurse, EMT) and for those teaching in a primary or secondary school setting. Simples, administered by Revenue, place of work must be defined within the county of Dublin, job done.
Inflation is coming down and everything still costs 10% more. So we'll take 12%
That really is a massive over-simplification. Procurement might be a part of someone' role, but not all of it. At least that is how it is in my Department, each division is responsible for its own procurement. There is no central "procurement section".
Not that a Dublin Allowance will ever happen anyway. It seems it would be voted down by those outside of Dublin out of spite!
Back to the topic of pay talks... apparently preliminary talks have started.
And the usual "we have to be cautious now and inflation is coming down" rhetoric, (while of course preparing for increases in welfare spend) ... not that I personally expected any different.
And the Unions don't seem to have any firm goal in mind, if this is anything to go by. 🤦
I think the talks are due to start this week.
Simply put, the offers shouldn't be in Dublin. Someone working in procurement could just as easily work from an office in Mullingar as in Dublin. The same can't be said for a teacher for example.
The late 2000s decentralisation plan was absolute horseshit. One of the most poorly thought out plans that, unsurprisingly, fell on its face.
My mate had his job headed for Donegal while his wife’s was off to Cork. It’s as if the powers that he didn’t consider their staff might have families that didn’t want to move…
In the end neither move went through (but she left for DCC before that was confirmed)
There are examples of decentralisation that have worked really well, where operational divisions have been moved to, or set up from scratch outside of Dublin, like NSSO and Justice Finance in Killarney, DSP Childrens Allowance in Donegal, Revenue collections in Limerick and more. These aren't policy folks, and don't have huge engagement with other teams and other Departments. They just get on with their own processing jobs.
Never mind.
Hahahah nah there wouldn't be.
Would there also be a "rural allowance" to compensate for the lack of local medical care, no gas network, no broadband and the necessity for each adult in the household to run their own car, with huge mileage, since there is zero public transport?
Decentralisation won't work until there is a critical mass of senior level civil servants willing to operate in these decentralised areas. To be willing, they can't be spending half of their week travelling back to Dublin to attend meetings in person at the central location.
The reality is that the real decision makers are Dublin based and that shapes the rest.
Very true.
Though it might encourage a few to join the union so they actually have a vote.
I guess they'd have to look at how it was done in London.
How would they introduce a Dublin allowance, most workers are outside Dublin and would vote against it. And the union would suffer if they tried to push it through.
if its a "Dublin Allowance", then yes, it should be exactly as it says on the tin and apply across the board to those whose roles are based Dublin.
There will always be civil and public service general administrative roles that will need to stay in Dublin. Revenue, Intreo offices, HSE, etc.
Yep, it deserves its own thread!
I am not going to get into a back and forth over what is critical or not. That would be my take on a Dublin allowance, you think everyone should get it. Grand.
You can move procurement outside of Dublin in its entirety with little to no effect on services. Again, I'll just agree to disagree. Very little relevance to the public pay talks really.
I wouldn't agree that "procurement people can work from anywhere" (as an example).
It could be argued that for most people, there is still a requirement to attend the office in person for minimum number of days a week and if your office is in Dublin, why should it matter if your role is procurement, or general admin, for that matter? These roles may not be "front line" but they are still in Dublin.
Also, Head Offices tend to be located in Dublin, as that is where you will find the Minister's Office, Sec Gen Office, etc.
Well you would just define them as critical then and give them the allowance.
Effectively, you only want the Dublin allowance for roles that require people in Dublin. We have no choice but to have teachers, nurses etc. based in Dublin and there should be a premium given to that. Procurement people can work from anywhere, there is no requirement for them to be in Dublin like other roles. Hence, in my eyes, they wouldn't be eligible for it. The thinking is relatively obvious. Whether someone would agree with or not is a different matter and, as already said, prolly for a different thread.
It would probably be an interesting topic for its own thread.
I imagine it would be very difficult to set the eligibility criteria for a "Dublin" allowance, and also a nightmare to administer.
I mean, off the top of my head, would it only apply to those renting in Dublin, or those commuting to Dublin, or those earning under a certain income .... the list could be endless.
Can't see it happening!
With an election down the road I doubt they will bring in a contentious issue like city allowances in next couple of years. Look how the teachers grading students kite got kicked to touch because of “ai”
Why only for critical services? We need engineers, architects, IT people, procurement people, all of whom face the same challenges around living in Dublin.
A Dublin allowance wouldn't be for all, only for critical services i.e. Gardai, nurses, teachers etc. Defining those services is where it becomes very difficult.
I don't see the point in discussing it too much. It isn't going to happen. A broader pay agreement for all that brings peoples pay broadly in line with inflation is the key deliverable of these talks. Demanding more from the unions is unrealistic (I am not saying you are demanding it).
Which jobs in which Departments can be decentralised?
Didn't really work out so well last time. Retirements caused the loss of a lot of tacit knowledge, and then people simply stagnated in regional offices as there was no where for them to move to.
Besides any future decentralisation would more likely take the form of shared hubs.
I completely agree with you, but a large number of civil service jobs can be
@yabadabado We saw how eager during the McCreevy decentralisation insanity how eager the unions were to sell their Dublin members down the river for the sake of a few promotion posts "down the country".
@Ollie321 You can't dencentralise Intreo offices, Gardai, nurses, teachers, council staff... and as far as civil service was concerned most of the low hanging fruit was harvested well before McCreevy.
Decentralisation should be sought to a greater extent. Recently heard of a regional location closing down while jobs being sent back to Dublin. The mind boggles
A Dublin allowance won't happen ,I doubt its something the unions would fight for either.
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