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sick of propping up non performing farms

abnormalnorman

every year its the same story - farmers are loosing money, and we need to support them.

just saw this headline now (and haven't read it , sorry), but, why do we (tax payers) need to keep bailing out the farmers every time something doesn't go their way??

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/agri-business/i-hope-there-can-be-a-fast-delivery-of-money-into-farmers-pockets-new-aca-president-noel-feeney-on-cap-and-other-challenges-41472174.html

if a farm isn't making profit, enough to withstand the never-ending problems of the world (wet weather, dry weather, war, covid, inflation, etc etc etc ) - then the farmer needs to re-organise, re-establish his/her enterprise to make it more sustainable, without support from everyone else. Somehow they can still afford to buy tractors worth 30k, when a tractor worth 10k will do the same job.

Its the construction industry that are suffering the most in todays climate - some who are stuck in a contract to finish buildings that they priced maybe 2 years ago! No one on about a "fast delivery of money into their pockets".

So my question before I get banned from boards - d you agree with above statement? Yes / No poll.

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abnormalnorman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118826751#Comment_118826751

how many people have worked their bollix off for a career that didnt work out. i agree it is hard, very hard to move away from what you were brought up with, and what your ancestors have done . but life is hard.

matt.v

Ireland is actually deemed the most food secure country in the world - look up the GFSI index. "The index has Ireland as the number one country for food security, with it ranking well across the four criteria of affordability, availability, quality and safety, and natural resources and resilience." Other countries like America are unable to suppress the prices of nutritious foods, and people simply cant afford them as a result and must turn to cheap and highly processed foods instead, increasing rates of obesity, anaemia, etc. Other countries like Singapore just import everything, and the flaws in that system were glaringly highlighted with covid. A key facet of it is affordability - and at the prices fruit, veg, milk, and meat are available in supermarkets no farmer could ever hope to make a living out of it. Aside from the finances, farmers are subsidied to carry out ecosystem services and for stewardship of the land - because everyone wants our natural heritage of rabbits, birds and trees etc looked after but few people actually do anything to support them on a wide scale. Subsidies are going to be greater linked to these kind of environmental activities in the next few years.

El Tarangu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825957#Comment_118825957

I'm pretty certain that the majority of grain imports goes to feed livestock - maybe we could be self-sufficient in tillage if we focused on growing grain to feed ourselves, rather than allowing subsidies to completely distort Irish agriculture into one or two areas of production?

Then again maybe we wouldn't, but you would wonder what the point of it all is - we are importing shiploads of grain and feed from half-way across the world to feed animals that farmers cannot make any money on, and at the end of the year, the taxpayer is asked to write a cheque to keep the machine creaking along for another year.

DBK1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829224#Comment_118829224

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828641#Comment_118828641

Sorry but the only one incorrect is yourself. For someone that supposedly works in construction you must be the “go-for” as your knowledge of contracts seems to be limited

There is a “clause 36” that allows for increases (or decreases) in agreed contract prices to allow for abnormal circumstances such as the delays and wage increases seen in the past 18 months. This clause allows contractors increase the contract price to compensate for this.

There is also a clause 38 which is for what’s classed as “force majure” circumstances. The COVID delays would also fall into this category in certain circumstances so again agreed and signed contract prices can be altered.

Farmers don’t have that option and can only take the price they are given on the day. To translate that into construction prices would mean the builder would have to buy all the materials, build the house and then hand the customer the key when it’s ready to move into. The customer would then pay the price that they see fit to and the builder has to just accept that price.

abnormalnorman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829453#Comment_118829453

your wrong, as im working with these every day, and no contractors are getting anything for covid. what contracts are you referring to? must be "back of the matchbox" contracts your working with. definitely nothing to cover the increase in material costs, which is what we are talking about.

dohc turbo2

Out of interest did u collect children's allowance for Ur kids, or did u not want to be a burden either and support them urself ,

abnormalnorman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829453#Comment_118829453

there is no one holding a gun to the farmers head for them to do this - make a change, diversify, get out!!! They have land worth millions, if they cant make a living, what hope has the guy who starts out with nothing!!

bb12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829410#Comment_118829410

I don't understand how people are still not getting it in this day and age...it's breathtaking the lack of knowledge people have about their food supply and farming in general

subsidies exist for one reason only....keep food cheap so people don't go hungry...because what happens when people go hungry? revolutions and wars happen...people get their heads chopped off. look at the reason for most uprisings and conflicts in just the last few years.

if you as a consumer had to pay the correct amount for the steak or veg in your local supermarket, one that wasn't subsidised, you'd be dumbfounded. but don't worry, that's never gonna happen because no government in their right minds would ever allow it to.

plus you have to take into account global trade agreements...we agree to buy feed from other countries and they agree to buy our produce...thats what globalisation does... and up to now it probably has suited ok because one country is probably better suited to producing certain foodstuffs over others...but now the chains are breaking down so it's leading to an uncertain future...i still don't think people havve a clue what is staring them down the line in the next 12-18 months.

ireland is not really suitable for growing grains for flour quality...we can't even grow the correct potato varieties for chip manufacturers...at the same time, we're paving and cementing over the most fertile and only real horticultural zone in north co dublin...because people want houses close to the city.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828714#Comment_118828714

You proved my point. You had to go to a yoke that was about 40 years old. That might do a hobby fella alright. That might be your own situation but isn't for a lot of people.

It would be some laugh for anyone actually even semi serious of an operation to be depending on that. 🤣

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829410#Comment_118829410

You're about 20 years behind there. Read up on for a thing called "decoupling"

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829541#Comment_118829541

Just letting you know man. You might not be aware of it, or might not intend it, but your posts on the thread come across with a tinge of bitterness and jealousy for some reason.

abnormalnorman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829599#Comment_118829599

you obviously dont know much about tractors - this ford 7610 is much more reliable than any new tractor you will buy. no electrics to go wrong.

new massey's parked up all over the country with electrical problems.

farmers like their comforts, regardless of who pays for them - they love the fast tractor, with stereo and comfy seat, with a passenger seat for the kids or the missus. suspension cab in case a few pot holes on the road!

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829224#Comment_118829224

Sure if you aren’t making anything from it why didn’t you rent it out? You’d get the money tax free and have more time to yourself.

I don’t agree with handouts for farmers over the sfp. Maybe supports for tillage in the current crisis but not the other sectors.

A couple of years ago they were paying out finisher supports when the factory price dropped and 6 months later the price was back up when demand stabilised.

Id say if this crisis drags on it will see a lot more farmers pack it in especially if they can’t make a margin.

James2022

I'll never not be shocked at the general public's ignorance when it comes to farming and how food is made. It doesn't help that its been explained multiple times to toddler levels in this thread but people still can't understand or grasp the basic concepts of subsidising an industry that benefits the EU by being on its knees.

I am no way pro-war/pandemic but the growing dangers to food security are a well needed shake up. I look forward to future moaning threads about mince being €12/kg, milk €4/L and €5 a loaf for inedible Irish grain bread when farmers get paid properly for their produce.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829722#Comment_118829722

Dude. That yoke is only 95hp or so. It wouldn't drive half of the machines here. You obviously don't know much about tractors. Things have moved on since the 1980's. We already have a 95hp tractor here that is kept as much for sentimental value as anything. (And it's about 15 years fresher than your DD one) It gets a few handy jobs over the Summer. A decent yoke to have now what with the price of diesel, but it wouldn't be able for a lot of jobs. Bit of topping or turning hay or driving a wrapper. It's too small even for pulling trailers for drawing silage with the trailers used.

You say you work in construction? You must make a fortune. Where other lads are going off paying big money for excavators and diggers for site preparation, you must be getting all the work because you can undercut them and still make a fortune by landing in with your pick and shovel and wheelbarrow.

abnormalnorman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829533#Comment_118829533

i did collect it when my kids were of age, and was grateful for it. but i wasn't moaning every day saying i needed more!!!

if i wasnt able to support them myself, i wouldn't have had them!!!

dohc turbo2

U collected it all the same, u sound like a bitter lad that the brother got the farm , nothing but jealousy and ignorance here by u

DBK1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829517#Comment_118829517

No you’re wrong. Them clauses are regularly written out of contracts by poorly organised contractors who either don’t understand how their contracts work or who can’t depend on the quality of their previous work to get the contract they are pricing so they eliminate them clauses as a sweetener to get the job.

Idiots is what they’d be more commonly referred to and if you are dealing with them things every day and you don’t understand how them clauses work then I’m afraid that’s the category you fall into also. The contracts without them clauses would be the “back of the matchbox” contracts, the proper professionals who understand the contracts have the clauses in place.

You be best off learning how to do your own job instead of trying to start arguments online on topics you’re poorly educated on.

Mitch Connor

The country needs certain elements to function, and at a price people can pay.

Fuel/Energy, Food... if a govenment has to subsidise these, fine. its the price of having a functioning society.

My tax may as well help farmers as anything else it goes towards. There are plenty of govenment schemes I could call out, but there is a general need and it should be accepted, that a govenment will need to step in.

DBK1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829722#Comment_118829722

You’re knowledge of tractors appears to be as poor as your knowledge of construction.

It’s time to find a new hobby I’d say as your not getting on too well with your current one of trying to put people down on an anonymous forum. Maybe take up reading, that way you might find some good books on construction or machinery that will help you to educate yourself. You never know, you might win the next argument then.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828681#Comment_118828681

What good would any of them front line workers have been if they had nothing to eat

Farmers are and always will be the most important people on the planet. Prove me wrong.

893bet

You know the saying about arguing with a fool lads.

White Clover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828621#Comment_118828621

What do you mean never ending. I think you think you know more than you do.

Subsidised by €135 per person per year versus pay the true cost plus a margin for your food. That's the 2 choices you have.

Do you have any idea of the true cost of producing the fully traceable high quality safe food that you take for granted?

lalababa

I wonder what the price of a steak or an egg or a litre of milk would be without subs throughout Europe?

On the back of a fag packet....With everything else remaining the same price (which undoubtedly it wouldn't)

A 100acre medium quality land suckler to beef farm to support a family should take in 50k profit( average industrial wage + asset value). Atm it probably does 10000 profit. And an average cap sub of 10000. So to make up the shortfall its profit would have to increase by 500%. So beef at the factory has for a very long time been hovering around 4/kg. That would go to 20/kg.

Grain/sheep/pig ..almost everything else would have to rise in a similar fashion.

Milk is a different kettle of fish. Probally only a doubling.

Before major farm subs ...1960's , after people paid their rent food was the big expense. Accounting for 1/3 of their budget (and that was basic food...not mark and spencers).

I can buy my weekly food ..healthy nutritional etc. for 20 quid in the supermarket.....thats less than 2hrs work in the worst paying job. You can't have it both ways.

El Tarangu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829564#Comment_118829564

Not really convinced by your arguments, tbh - you're suggesting that there will be revolutions and wars if we don't continue to subsidise (relatively) inefficient Irish beef production? Presumably people in Ireland would be able to just purchase beef (or mutton, or some other equivalent) from somewhere else. I imagine that more wars and revolutions could be prevented if a bit less of the 40% of the world's total grain production was fed to farm animals, and was used to feed people instead.

DBK1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118830216#Comment_118830216

You do realise it’s farmers that grow the grain as well?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118830216#Comment_118830216

Beef production isn't subsidised. I already told you you are 20 years behind. Payments were decoupled from production.

There is no point trying to have a conversation with someone who is basing their argument over the way things used to be 20 years ago.

It would be a bit like me coming on here and trying to say to you that it is difficult to make a living as a taxi driver because taxi plates are so restricted they can cost nearly as much as a house.

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828681#Comment_118828681

Most of those that got it weren't on the front line no more than the farmers, typical civil/public service effort for doing what was their job. they were doing no more than farmers do this time of year EVERY year. shop workers were more on the front line than any medics.

Typical Irish civil service effort...... public disservice again ..

K.G.

I m Just shocked that no one bothers listen to all the agri experts that appear in these type of threads.for what it's worth maybe these supports would be widely missed by almost everyone else more than your full-time farmer that's trying to make a living.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118830446#Comment_118830446

Cos there's a narrative out there that farmers are greedy and always whinging, so when Joe Public that believes that narrative hears an explanation (whether it's a good/bad explanation is debatable) from a farmer it'll be binned automatically due to farmer man being bad.

It's sorta like @wrangler and the civil service 😂