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Turning Left in a left turn lane

Spook_ie

Do people need to indicate turning left when in a left turning lane?

Was browsing the cycling forum ( as a person non grata on there I can't ask them ) when this subject popped up

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118312167#Comment_118312167

Some of the comments relate to if the car was indicating or not, so in a left turn lane is this indication that a vehicle is turning left under SI332 of 2012?

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2012/si/332/made/en/pdf

My opinion is that they need not as it would seem pretty obvious that they are going to go left but differing opinions on the legality of this thinking are welcome

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[Deleted User]

I'd argue drivers should always indicate. What about a pedestrian approaching a junction without lights. You can throw a glance over your shoulder to see if there's a car coming and hope if they're not indicating it means they plan on going straight. Bad idea in Dublin.

GM228

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327400#Comment_118327400

Your intention to turn is given via your direction indicator (or hand singlas), not the lane you are in, the law does not provide for lanes to give intentions of changing directions.

Never heard instructors tecahing that way, but if they are doing so the advice is being given which is contrary to what the law says.

The law specifically requires you to indicate when turning left or right or when otherwise altering course, there is no save when a directional arrow is provided stipulation.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327843#Comment_118327843

I don’t disagree with you. I was just saying a few posts ago that it is being taught….not just given as advice, but an instruction to not indicate

Seth Brundle

Another cyclist going straight while traffic wants to turn left - thankfully no collision but it shows how some drivers simply couldnt be arsed looking around them and also how cycling infrastructure in Ireland is piss poor to the point of actually being dangerous...

https://twitter.com/righttobikeit/status/1471223664947482635

km991148

Indicator doesn't really matter (I mean it does obviously, but in this case would have made little difference). I suspect it was the driver not checking nearside wing mirror. Cyclist could possibly have adjusted speed to ease back or position forward a bit to get out of the blind spot (hard to tell from one view).

The indicator should be on. Think about it from a non driving perspective - Pedestrians crossing, oncoming traffic and the cycle lane - none of them had the luxury of just driving over the left lane markings. The indicator is to show your intent to all around you.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118324746#Comment_118324746

jesus. if you are changing direction or changing lane, you indicate.

magicbastarder

anyway, with my cyclist hat/helmet on, those junctions which are wand protected are a 'two steps forward, two steps back' development for cyclists. it prevents cyclists from taking the lane and placing themselves in a position where being swiped by a turning car is much less likely.

Sono

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323540#Comment_118323540

Spot on, some of the comments on this thread are scary but show why so many accidents occur in this country, wondering if you should indicate or not when taking a left turn in a left turn only lane! Of course you bloody indicate

Sono

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327340#Comment_118327340

What utter nonsense.

GM228

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328949#Comment_118328949

If you think that the Gardaí use the ROTR against you in court you are totally mistaken and have absolutely no idea of how the law works, and yes under the rules of evidence anything other than an actual Act, Regulation or common law provision is considered hear say in a court of law, and that includes the ROTR.

fritzelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328938#Comment_118328938

Of course BMW drivers are exempt

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328764#Comment_118328764

I always refer to that as blinkered driving, absolutely no idea as to what's occurring around them.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323155#Comment_118323155

for people who seem not to know (and referring to the ROTR vs rules of the road); you can be pretty sure that when the ROTR says 'must', it's restating the law, and when it says 'should', it's considered advice.

Flinty997

I used to cycle that route before the wands.

Was a bad junction back then for cyclists. Seems like they just made it more dangerous.

blindsider

"for people who seem not to know (and referring to the ROTR vs rules of the road); you can be pretty sure that when the ROTR says 'must', it's restating the law, and when it says 'should', it's considered advice."

I agree with the 2nd part of the statement i.e. must v should ...I'm not sure what you mean by the first...is ROTR not an acceptable abbreviation?

jimmycrackcorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323191#Comment_118323191

Left turn-only lanes generally only have an arrow on the actual road surface and not an actual road sign. This was the case in the linked video. So when there is a line of traffic this won't be very visible as in this example, to the cyclist on the left. Indicators are there to show other road users the driver's intention, not to replace road signs. Note that it also applies for pedestrians,m who equally cannot see if it is left turn only but the driver isn't giving any indication of their intention.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329150#Comment_118329150

When ROTR says "you must do X" that means that there is a law out there, an actual Act made by the actual Oireachtas or actual regulations made by an actual minister, saying "a road user in this situation must do X".

If you want to know for your own satisfaction what the law requires you do to so that you can do it, you can stop there.

But if you want to go into court and prosecute somebody for not doing X when he should have, you can't point to ROTR. Or, if you want to persuade someone else that he is legally required to do X, you can't make him accept that ROTR is correct when it says you must do this - it is at least theoretically possible that ROTR is mistaken, or oversimplified, or whatever, on some points.. In these cases, you have to dig deeper and find the actual Act or actual regulations which say "a road user in this situation must do X" and point to those.

whomitconcerns

What I'm still not getting... From anyone.. Is. Why would you not indicate??

As for driving instructors teaching people they should not indicate...wtf???

WHY would you not?

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329224#Comment_118329224

Mainly to have an excuse for hitting a cyclist, apparently.

the_pen_turner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329224#Comment_118329224

I cant understand why you would indicate when it's the only way you can go. You dont indicate when you go around a bend on a normal road.

whomitconcerns

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329342#Comment_118329342

Maybe because your not changing direction/road?

the_pen_turner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329351#Comment_118329351

What difference does direction make. There are lots of places where left lanes only go one way but continue forward . The angle to the turn is irrelevant.

GM228

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329342#Comment_118329342

There's a difference between a continuous road with a bend and a road with a junction though, indicators are of benefit to all other road users, some of whom would have absolutely no idea of the lane being for a particular direction only, i.e pedestrians.

There has been court cases where vehicles have entered a filter lane, indicated and then hit pedestrians around the corner, despite being a particular turn only the issue of indicator use has arisen in such cases, asides from a legal requirement to use them (irrespective of the lane markings) it is the indicator and not the lane which gives the pedestrian a reasonable expectation of the motorists intention.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329150#Comment_118329150

Whoops, I meant ROTR vs road traffic law

magicbastarder

Anyway, it's a good thing the OP doesn't drive a vehicle for a living, getting basic questions like this out of the way before considering that option.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329342#Comment_118329342

It's not the only way you can go when you're in a left-hand-turn only or right-hand-turn only lane; it's the only way you should go. But it's handy for the rest of us to know that that is, in fact, the way you are going to go.

(Also, you can't assume that other road users know that the land is l/h only, or whatever, and there's only one way you should go; you saw the road marking before you drove your car onto it, but by the time I got there it may have been obscured by your car, or by someone else's.)

magicbastarder

there are a few examples i can think of where lane markings change unexpectedly too, it's very easy to find yourself in a lane where arrows appear for directions you don't want to travel.

one example, southbound on the swords road approaching the omni shopping centre. most drivers southbound heading for the city would be in the lane beside the bus lane, and would drive over an arrow indicating the lane is for straight on. 40m later that lane has become right turn only, and the driver must now move to the lane to the left to regain a straight on lane. and given that's a lane which often would have traffic queuing for omni, it's very easy for a driver to not see the right turn arrow until they're almost on top of it

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3934011,-6.2457376,131m/data=!3m1!1e3

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329437#Comment_118329437

Weirdly, I have noticed a lot of drivers don't indicate in this scenario. (I do) Yesterday saw a smallish truck not indicating and was very wtaf given the amount of driving he must do. Seems just incredibly silly to not indicate.

magicbastarder

i would have thought that for the considerable majority of drivers that it's purely muscle memory at this point, not something that you'd actively need to decide to do.

cruizer101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329342#Comment_118329342

Below is the junction in question, there are 2 lanes before and two lanes after, the assumption would be both lanes have the option of going straight. I'm not a fan of assumptions but given the only signage is arrows on the road which could be easily covered people will have to make assumptions. If a car isn't indicating left the logical conclusion in the absence of any other evidence (remember road arrows aren't visible and there is a lane on other side of junction for car to go into) is that the car would go straight.

That is why you would indicate.

If the junction were like this I could understand the logic of not needing to indicate, I still think it is good practice, in this case there is no other realistic option.