EU Digital/paper! Certs, the Megathread - threadbans in OP

francogarbanzo wrote: »

Does your 1 year old have to show their vaccine passport to go to a restaurant or get a haircut?

No one has to in Ireland, so what’s your point?

Timberrrrrrrr

francogarbanzo wrote: »

Does your 1 year old have to show their vaccine passport to go to a restaurant or get a haircut?

Does anyone have to do that now?

Fighting Tao wrote: »

No one has to in Ireland, so what’s your point?

My point is that nobody is upset about countries instituting vaccination requirements for crossing their borders. What they are concerned about is what Leo Varadkar envisions for Ireland:

https://www.irishpost.com/news/leo-varadkar-explains-how-vaccine-certificates-could-work-in-ireland-205432

Is he lying?

It's already happening anyway. We've learned today that fully vaccinated people starting in May will be able to get haircuts and use non-essential shops. They're going to have to prove that they're vaccinated somehow. If that "works," why wouldn't they extend it to indoor dining, pubs, etc.?

Ashbourne hoop

francogarbanzo wrote: »

My point is that nobody is upset about countries instituting vaccination requirements for crossing their borders. What they are concerned about is what Leo Varadkar envisions for Ireland:

https://www.irishpost.com/news/leo-varadkar-explains-how-vaccine-certificates-could-work-in-ireland-205432

Is he lying?

It's already happening anyway. We've learned today that fully vaccinated people starting in May will be able to get haircuts and use non-essential shops. They're going to have to prove that they're vaccinated somehow. If that "works," why wouldn't they extend it to indoor dining, pubs, etc.?

It was a suggestion in a newspaper, actually no more than a headline really. It's unworkable for many reasons.

The interview with Varadker was a month ago, and it was given as a posibility.

I can see some sort of vaccine passport for foreign travel, and possibly for large concerts/sporting events, but not for getting a haircut.

Ashbourne hoop wrote: »

It was a suggestion in a newspaper, actually no more than a headline really. It's unworkable for many reasons.

I agree it's unworkable, and I'd take it a step further and say it's inhumane. Let's hope they come to that same conclusion.

francogarbanzo wrote: »

My point is that nobody is upset about countries instituting vaccination requirements for crossing their borders. What they are concerned about is what Leo Varadkar envisions for Ireland:

https://www.irishpost.com/news/leo-varadkar-explains-how-vaccine-certificates-could-work-in-ireland-205432

Is he lying?

It's already happening anyway. We've learned today that fully vaccinated people starting in May will be able to get haircuts and use non-essential shops. They're going to have to prove that they're vaccinated somehow. If that "works," why wouldn't they extend it to indoor dining, pubs, etc.?

I have no idea if he is lying or not. How could I? Politicians say a lot of things. Sometimes it's even to get the feel of how the population would respond, and it is not a commitment to do anything.

As far as I can see, we haven't learned anything for certain.

francogarbanzo wrote: »

I agree it's unworkable, and I'd take it a step further and say it's inhumane. Let's hope they come to that same conclusion.

"Inhumane"?

Fighting Tao wrote: »

"Inhumane"?

Yes.

francogarbanzo wrote: »

Yes.

I'm intrigued. How would it be inhumane?

Fighting Tao wrote: »

I'm intrigued. How would it be inhumane?

Because if this goes where I think it's going, locking access to general society behind a medical procedure is wrong. I don't think it's moral to coerce individuals into getting a vaccine by the state denying them entry to shops, restaurants, sports events, etc. It's the opposite of a free society.

If an individual business only wants to open their doors to people who have been vaccinated, I don't think that's a good thing necessarily, but it's their choice and their business. If this becomes something like law though, and it's actually illegal to allow entry into your shop unless each patron has scanned in through their vaccine passport, then... well, I don't know what. The precedent that sets is unimaginably terrifying and the potential for abuse is massive.

If the vaccines work, we won't need to coerce people into taking them. They'll take them willingly.

sydthebeat

"thin edge of the wedge"... oh the horror !!!!

astrofool

So just to sum up, we have:

People who think that this won't happen at all, or just for international travel.
People who think it will happen, but will be temporary, and just for travel and big events, no one is sure if they'll try and apply this to hairdressers as we're not very good in Ireland at getting systems like this in place.

Then we take a left turn and it's:

People who think this is a plot to create a social scoring system and once it's introduced will never be dropped, so must be "resisted" at all costs.
Anti-Vaxxers who are worried that they'll have to get vaccinated to get back to going to pubs and cinema and to travel internationally, but they don't say they're anti-vax and jump in with the social scoring people.

spaceHopper

brenbrady wrote: »

How does the vaccine prevent transmission, I thought that a vaccine only prevents you from getting sick but you can still get infected and spread the virus?

That's my point, the passport has zero use in suppressing the virus, it has no magic power. Having the vaccine in arms is the magic power anything which puts people off it has to be bad thing.

Lux23

I've had a vaccine passport since 2001.

Fighting Tao wrote: »

I'm intrigued. How would it be inhumane?

if all your friends are in a cafe waving out and you cannot join them because for health reasons, you're not vaccinated.. a vector is a vector is a vector...
you can still pass it on yes??? hence no entry without a passport.. No sounds lovely..it will certainly boost ones mental health.

cannot go the gym, cannot travel. cannot go to mass and worship, cannot go browse in a shop...remember many cannot take avaccine so do they wait at home and join in on society when this is totally eradicated???

astrofool wrote: »

So just to sum up, we have:
People who think that this won't happen at all, or just for international travel.

People who think it will happen, but will be temporary, and just for travel and big events, no one is sure if they'll try and apply this to hairdressers as we're not very good in Ireland at getting systems like this in place.

Then we take a left turn and it's:
People who think this is a plot to create a social scoring system and once it's introduced will never be dropped, so must be "resisted" at all costs.

Anti-Vaxxers who are worried that they'll have to get vaccinated to get back to going to pubs and cinema and to travel internationally, but they don't say they're anti-vax and jump in with the social scoring people.

We'll know from Denmark whether it's temporary or not. The Danish Government has said it will be temporary until the entire population has been offered a vaccine. So keep any eye on Denmark.

I think it's unrealistic to believe that it will be temporary. Too much money will be spent on it for it to be temporary.

Lux23 wrote: »

I've had a vaccine passport since 2001.

To go to the pub?

astrofool wrote: »

So just to sum up, we have:
People who think that this won't happen at all, or just for international travel.

People who think it will happen, but will be temporary, and just for travel and big events, no one is sure if they'll try and apply this to hairdressers as we're not very good in Ireland at getting systems like this in place.

Then we take a left turn and it's:
People who think this is a plot to create a social scoring system and once it's introduced will never be dropped, so must be "resisted" at all costs.

Anti-Vaxxers who are worried that they'll have to get vaccinated to get back to going to pubs and cinema and to travel internationally, but they don't say they're anti-vax and jump in with the social scoring people.

so the clever pragmatists in society are right wing and the nut jobs are left wing...that's the best point you've made by far as it's true.
MAGA!:D

bucketybuck

astrofool wrote: »

So just to sum up

It's not sums if you leave out half the data.

Bit cynical

seamus wrote: »

Israel has for some reason seemed to have decided to slow down its vaccine rollout and open up its economy instead.

Makes a certain amount of sense though. Once you've vaccinated a good proportion of the population (which Israel has) then deaths and serious illness from the virus go right down. What is the point in keeping the economy closed at that point? And once you've got deaths and hospitalizations down and the economy open, a lot of the urgency is removed and vaccine administration rates can slow down.

astrofool wrote: »

So just to sum up, we have:
People who think that this won't happen at all, or just for international travel.

People who think it will happen, but will be temporary, and just for travel and big events, no one is sure if they'll try and apply this to hairdressers as we're not very good in Ireland at getting systems like this in place.

Then we take a left turn and it's:
People who think this is a plot to create a social scoring system and once it's introduced will never be dropped, so must be "resisted" at all costs.

Anti-Vaxxers who are worried that they'll have to get vaccinated to get back to going to pubs and cinema and to travel internationally, but they don't say they're anti-vax and jump in with the social scoring people.

Yes those are the only 4 possible positions. Good one.

Real Donald Trump

Well well

Seanachai

rusty cole wrote: »

if all your friends are in a cafe waving out and you cannot join them because for health reasons, you're not vaccinated.. a vector is a vector is a vector...
you can still pass it on yes??? hence no entry without a passport.. No sounds lovely..it will certainly boost ones mental health.

cannot go the gym, cannot travel. cannot go to mass and worship, cannot go browse in a shop...remember many cannot take avaccine so do they wait at home and join in on society when this is totally eradicated???

Exactly, it wouldn't just be a restriction on not being able to browse your favourite hot sauce section, it would effectively be a ban on public human interaction.

Jim2007

francogarbanzo wrote: »

Because if this goes where I think it's going, locking access to general society behind a medical procedure is wrong. I don't think it's moral to coerce individuals into getting a vaccine by the state denying them entry to shops, restaurants, sports events, etc. It's the opposite of a free society.

And what kind of a society is it, if a vulnerable person who have been isolating etc for over a year can’t go into society for fear of of being infected by you, if there is insufficient medical care available to people who need it and so on. It’s OK for you to decide to visit that on the rest of us, so long as you get to do what you want is it?

Your rights are no more important than anyone else. Don’t get the vaccine if you don’t wish to do so. But by the same token don’t expect to be able to impose your decision on the rest of us.

Seanachai wrote: »

Exactly, it wouldn't just be a restriction on not being able to browse your favorite hot sauce section, it would effectively be a ban on public human interaction.

it's the equivalent of being handed a bell and calling "UNCLEAN" unless you are vaccinated and deemed..clean..well for 6 months until it runs out, or 2 months in some and 2 years in others as we are all human and as unique as the guy in America who has super antibodies https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-56324050

.. then it will be, we need a boost for the variants so where does it all end. If they go down this road, your doctor will be claiming you cannot come see him because you're risking the health of other patients, the health of the doctor and so on. If you're unvaccinated and choose to stay that way, you'll be zoom calling your Doc for a long time.. no that will be coercion.

Jim2007 wrote: »

And what kind of a society is it, if a vulnerable person who have been isolating etc for over a year can’t go into society for fear of of being infected by you, if there is insufficient medical care available to people who need it and so on. It’s OK for you to decide to visit that on the rest of us, so long as you get to do what you want is it?

Your rights are no more important than anyone else. Don’t get the vaccine if you don’t wish to do so. But by the same token don’t expect to be able to impose your decision on the rest of us.

What kind of society is it that locks their young away to protect their old, and then when their old are protected continues to lock their young away, unless of course they're needed to serve the older ones in restaurants they themselves aren't allowed attend?

Its absolutely mental.

Jim2007 wrote: »

And what kind of a society is it, if a vulnerable person who have been isolating etc for over a year can’t go into society for fear of of being infected by you, if there is insufficient medical care available to people who need it and so on. It’s OK for you to decide to visit that on the rest of us, so long as you get to do what you want is it?

Your rights are no more important than anyone else. Don’t get the vaccine if you don’t wish to do so. But by the same token don’t expect to be able to impose your decision on the rest of us.

Please think this through some more.

FileNotFound

Get a system up and running, it will allow businesses to open for the summer, getting some people back to work and reducing the future tax burden.

Nothing invented now will last for that long, it will be a half arsed shambles at best when set up and then will be got rid of as it becomes a political nightmare.

Let those that have a shot and are no risk to others make use of things that have been closed, it will really just help stop any mad queues at shops when they open and give the pubs time to set up and get staffed etc.

I say this as one of those who will be last on the list for a vaccine. Bitter pill to swallow indeed but better than being just bitter.

Jim2007 wrote: »

And what kind of a society is it, if a vulnerable person who have been isolating etc for over a year can’t go into society for fear of of being infected by you, if there is insufficient medical care available to people who need it and so on. It’s OK for you to decide to visit that on the rest of us, so long as you get to do what you want is it?

Your rights are no more important than anyone else. Don’t get the vaccine if you don’t wish to do so. But by the same token don’t expect to be able to impose your decision on the rest of us.

The Universal Declaration on Bioethics and Human Rights states
"The interests and welfare of the individual should have priority over the sole interest of science or society."

Hitler famously said: “The common good before the individual good.”
History has showed us how the collectivist mindset is the cornerstone to authoritarian regimes which is why we have the UNCHR that was drafted after WW2.

My understanding is that whether you're vaccinated or not, you can still get infected and spread the virus, vaccines don't stop infection just reduce the risk of a person getting seriously ill. So how does a vaccine passport prevent transmission and reduce death rates which is the real question?