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False rape accusation...who would you believe?

jeanjolie

False rape accusation is an unlikely though possibly frightening thing that can happen to a man. He can lose his job, lose friends, go on the sex offender list, and even if he's removed of it, vigilantes will probably attack him. I'm not aware of anyone in Ireland who has been accused but then again I don't have many male friends.

Getting to the point, rape is a pretty difficult crime to prosecute due to the nature (the act is legal itself), however on the unfortunate flip side, your 'character' and 'reputation' is usually judged regardless of evidence.

An example is n the US, a high number of false rape cases involved poor African American males due to their generally low socioeconomic status, high crime rates (for that racial group, not every black person). Even if they would never harm their children or girlfriend, the idea that 'If you've done this in the past, then you've probably done this or are capable of this' is very prevalent.

So now using an Irish example, if you go back to you secondary school as a teenager and knew this weird quiet lad who was quite creepy and made some sexual jokes and inappropriate jokes on and off. A girl you know in your social circle befriends this guy, they hang out and have rough anal sex, she doesn't like it, falls out with this guy and then she spreads this rumor that she was sodomized by this guy. Would you believe her? This guy is very weird and she does share weird things that he has said to her, but denies rape.

It's scary to think that a bunch of teen lads from my school would probably beat up the guy based of a lie like that, but then again he doesn't have a good reputation.

Realistically, what would you do?

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...Ghost...

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Which was a gross exaggeration, with little connection to reality.

OK, I can tell you're angry and confused, so i'll give you a break and explain. The "gross exaggeration" as you called my reference to a man being arrested for farting in the direction of a woman may have been a very obvious (though clearly not obvious enough for some) tongue in cheek comment. However, when (ridiculously) challenged on it, I managed to easily find examples where farting resulted in charges/fines for men. Gross....yes. Exaggerated....no.

iptba

New law will allow for information to be released on sex offenders
Bill will strengthen monitoring of dangerous offenders on release from prison

In response to queries from The Irish Times, the Department of Justice said the new law would include a raft of measures to monitor sex offenders on their release.

“The purpose of the Bill is to enhance current systems for assessment and management of convicted sex offenders and to put those systems on a statutory footing,” a spokesman said.

This includes introducing a protocol to allow for the disclosure of information relating to high-risk offenders including their name, address and the threat they may pose.

No decision has been made yet on what categories of people will be given such information but it is understood employers, schools and neighbours of sexual offenders are likely to be included.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/new-law-will-allow-for-information-to-be-released-on-sex-offenders-1.4497519

It will be interesting to see how this works out.

iptba

Happened to hear a bit of the Sky News paper discussion today with regard to the Sarah Everard.
Some commentator was using it to complain that not enough cases are prosecuted and the prosecution rate is not high enough for sexual assault all cases.

poisonated

I had my ass grabbed by a woman on multiple occasions in the same bar. When I told a staff of the bar this, he just smiled and said “aren’t you lucky”. I can guarantee that if I grabbed a woman’s ass, I would be at the very least thrown out of a bar and at worst, I would have been arrested. Just shows gender bias once again.

bb1234567

God , what a minefield. Took me a long time to accept that I was gay..but I have to say it definitely has perks in this department..consent, just never really been something I've had to worry about. Is this a big issue for straight guys(as opposed to being something exaggerated on internet social circles), like do ye consciously think about the dangers/potential issues of it when you're out on a night out and maybe bringing a girl home? That would be an awful thing to have on your mind and a real mood killer.

[Deleted User]

bb1234567 wrote: »

God , what a minefield. Took me a long time to accept that I was gay..but I have to say it definitely has perks in this department..consent, just never really been something I've had to worry about. Is this a big issue for straight guys(as opposed to being something exaggerated on internet social circles), like do ye consciously think about the dangers/potential issues of it when you're out on a night out and maybe bringing a girl home? That would be an awful thing to have on your mind and a real mood killer.

Ahh well I'm bisexual, and it's sometimes a factor with the guys I meet.

In any case, for me, it's the assessment of any risk, whether it's crossing the road, having that one more drink, or deciding that woman is just nutty enough to be fun.

I don't think it's much of a mood killer, because it doesn't take long to think, decide, act. I'd say that men are more likely to rely on their instincts, than think things through.

99nsr125

bb1234567 wrote: »

God , what a minefield. Took me a long time to accept that I was gay..but I have to say it definitely has perks in this department..consent, just never really been something I've had to worry about. Is this a big issue for straight guys(as opposed to being something exaggerated on internet social circles), like do ye consciously think about the dangers/potential issues of it when you're out on a night out and maybe bringing a girl home? That would be an awful thing to have on your mind and a real mood killer.

Yes it is a thing that guys now worry about.

Quite alot aswell

py2006

99nsr125 wrote: »

Yes it is a thing that guys now worry about.

Quite alot aswell

If you read the ****e online you would be SERIOUSLY weary of certain types of women while out.

But in real life, my experience, is that it doesn't reflect that of the online lunacy.

Vestiapx

bubblypop wrote: »

Well, personally through work I know if 3 women who were charged with making false statements regarding rape or sexual assault, but just from googling ( I am on the phone!) The first page throws up, Regina De Oliveira, Sarah Browne, Kerry Holt, also few northern ones coming up.
It's really not unusual.

It seems that what isn't very unusual is false allegations. The punishment for deliberately accusing someone of such a terrible offence should be commensurate and while the difficulties inherent in such a revision to the norm are obvious that dosen't mean that natural justice should not be served.

Wibbs

py2006 wrote: »

But in real life, my experience, is that it doesn't reflect that of the online lunacy.

Very much this. The vast majority of men aren't sexual predators and the vast majority of women are not accusing them of it, or anything like it. Certain parts of the online world and the media would have us believe that it's a near warzone and a dangerous place out there. It isn't.

I would say this again has the sniff of imported American culture to it. Even many moons ago visiting the US and watching their news, local and nationwide there was very much more of the hint of threats that could get you than you'd ever find in Ireland or the UK back then. It's a fear based media, because it's an entirely commercial one and a media that is constantly competing with others within it for the attention of viewers so advertisers keep the lights on and the wages coming. The old rule of if it bleeds it leads. The more modern take with be clickbait. Fear and paranoia in the public gets more attention. If one station runs with "there was a small gas leak reported from a refinery earlier, no casualties" and another runs with "Gas leak reported. Should you be worried for your family?". The latter will get more views and more clicks and amp up the paranoia about gas leaks.

iptba

(Oireachtas Justice Committee)

Caroline Counihan BL, legal policy director of the Rape Crisis Network Ireland, said the harm caused by the legal system to sexual assault victims is sometimes described as worse than the offence itself.

They have a particular fear that lengthy cross-examination could intrude into their private lives. She suggested that vulnerable people, including children, should have their evidence pre-recorded and allowed to stand as their evidence-in-chief.

Judges should be given wide-ranging discretionary powers to allow material or facilities that would assist participants, so long as it did not conflict with the interests of justice.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/one-in-seven-men-will-experience-relationship-violence-in-their-lifetime-politicians-hear-40231025.html

I have to say I get a bit nervous about the influence groups such as the Rape Crisis Network might have on trials and the right to justice for the accused.

By the way, I just heard an interview by Pat Kenny on Newstalk on this. He was being "politically correct" and pretty much said he didn't believe people would go through the whole court system with a false complaint.

Augme

Statistically speaking people are raped far more often than they are falsely accused so if you automatically believe someone who says they were raped you will be correct far more often than not believing them.

[Deleted User]

Augme wrote: »

Statistically speaking people are raped far more often than they are falsely accused so if you automatically believe someone who says they were raped you will be correct far more often than not believing them.

Which would alter the statistics, since the claims of rape would be recorded as fact.

We have a rather long history of statistics being inaccurate due to all manner of societal reasons. Whether that's people (both genders) being afraid to report rape, or the police dismissing rape claims, or even trying to mediate when those claims arise, we can't really trust past statistics, and even modern statistics should be scrutinized to ensure there's no bias at play.

py2006

Augme wrote: »

Statistically speaking people are raped far more often than they are falsely accused so if you automatically believe someone who says they were raped you will be correct far more often than not believing them.

You may be right, but not sure how you would know that.

It would not surprise me in the slightest if plenty of men have done time or are currently doing time based on a lie.

Perhaps your assumption is based on admitted lies?

jimwallace197

Augme wrote: »

Statistically speaking people are raped far more often than they are falsely accused so if you automatically believe someone who says they were raped you will be correct far more often than not believing them.

How on earth would you have the first clue in relation to this?? What a ridiculous statement to make.

iptba

Augme wrote: »

Statistically speaking people are raped far more often than they are falsely accused so if you automatically believe someone who says they were raped you will be correct far more often than not believing them.

This is the principle that is sometimes said to underlie our criminal justice system:

In criminal law, Blackstone's ratio (also known as the Blackstone ratio or Blackstone's formulation) is the idea that: It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer. ... The idea subsequently became a staple of legal thinking in Anglo-Saxon jurisdictions.

So the equation should be more complicated in criminal cases though I suspect there are a number of people who think having more innocent people convicted for sexual offenses might be an OK sacrifice.

99nsr125

Augme wrote: »

Statistically speaking people are raped far more often than they are falsely accused so if you automatically believe someone who says they were raped you will be correct far more often than not believing them.

Oh ffs

Where do I begin

ittakestwo

Hopefully soon we will have the technology to say if a rape has occurred or not and by whom. Untill then we have to settle with our law system which when comes down to somebody's word against another, leads to nothing.

ittakestwo

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2021/0325/1206201-courts-rape/

So in this case the perpetrator acknowledged the rape the day after by message which was crucial to the conviction. If they hadn't then it would have been one word against the other about it being consensual or not and would have lead to nothing.

iptba

iptba wrote: »

This is the principle that is sometimes said to underlie our criminal justice system:

n criminal law, Blackstone's ratio (also known as the Blackstone ratio or Blackstone's formulation) is the idea that: It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer. ... The idea subsequently became a staple of legal thinking in Anglo-Saxon jurisdictions.

So the equation should be more complicated in criminal cases though I suspect there are a number of people who think having more innocent people convicted for sexual offenses might be an OK sacrifice.

I was thinking about this: if one thinks men have some collective guilt for violent crime and sexual assaults, which seems to be an attitude quite a number of people in society seem to hold, one might be more willing to punish individual men as one might think they are already part/guilty of a societal problem.

[Deleted User]

iptba wrote: »

I was thinking about this: if one thinks men have some collective guilt for violent crime and sexual assaults, which seems to be an attitude quite a number of people in society seem to hold, one might be more willing to punish individual men as one might think they are already part/guilty of a societal problem.

The problem is simply that the people who hold these opinions aren't forced to consider the logical fallacies of their views, especially, when applied with Men being replaced with any other group. Which is why there's been so much interest in safe spaces, preventing mansplaining, or maninterrupting.. etc. It allows these people with naive or moronic beliefs to hold on to them without facing any criticism.

Collective guilt is easily shown to be illogical, and worse yet, indicative of the type of attitudes that allowed or encouraged genocides to occur. Especially, when we consider the often misplaced belief that western people have about being individualistic, as opposed to being collectivist. It simply goes directly against many of the foundational values of western culture.

There are, of course, people who think this way (collective guilt or guilt by association). You see guys complaining about "women" except where they're intentionally grouping the whole gender together and seeing them in simple shades of Black/White. Just as you see the same with feminists, complaining about "Men" raping women..

I must admit I'm somewhat mystified when we see the application of collective responsibility or collective guilt in law.. It just seems like something that could be torn to shreds so easily, by talking about basic human rights within the western cultural model, or the freedoms/rights given under the constitution.

joeguevara

iptba wrote: »

This is the principle that is sometimes said to underlie our criminal justice system:

So the equation should be more complicated in criminal cases though I suspect there are a number of people who think having more innocent people convicted for sexual offenses might be an OK sacrifice.

The ratio outlined is referencing the criminal burden of proof and has nothing to do about the percentage of guilty people.

iptba

joeguevara wrote: »

The ratio outlined is referencing the criminal burden of proof and has nothing to do about the percentage of guilty people.

Come on, it's obvious I wasn't saying that there were 10 innocent people for every guilty person (or something like that). It would be completely ridiculous to claim that one could know the ratio of innocent people to guilty people and it would be exactly the same in every scenario, and I certainly wasn't saying it myself.

I was replying to this message:

Statistically speaking people are raped far more often than they are falsely accused so if you automatically believe someone who says they were raped you will be correct far more often than not believing them.

Even if more than 50% of a population were guilty, it wouldn't be acceptable to convict them all because of this principle:

In criminal law, Blackstone's ratio (also known as the Blackstone ratio or Blackstone's formulation) is the idea that: It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer. ... The idea subsequently became a staple of legal thinking in Anglo-Saxon jurisdictions.

iptba

Deleted User wrote: »

The problem is simply that the people who hold these opinions aren't forced to consider the logical fallacies of their views, especially, when applied with Men being replaced with any other group. Which is why there's been so much interest in safe spaces, preventing mansplaining, or maninterrupting.. etc. It allows these people with naive or moronic beliefs to hold on to them without facing any criticism.

Collective guilt is easily shown to be illogical, and worse yet, indicative of the type of attitudes that allowed or encouraged genocides to occur. Especially, when we consider the often misplaced belief that western people have about being individualistic, as opposed to being collectivist. It simply goes directly against many of the foundational values of western culture.

There are, of course, people who think this way (collective guilt or guilt by association). You see guys complaining about "women" except where they're intentionally grouping the whole gender together and seeing them in simple shades of Black/White. Just as you see the same with feminists, complaining about "Men" raping women..

I must admit I'm somewhat mystified when we see the application of collective responsibility or collective guilt in law.. It just seems like something that could be torn to shreds so easily, by talking about basic human rights within the western cultural model, or the freedoms/rights given under the constitution.

While trivial in connection with something like genocides, one of my first recollections of frustration at collective guilt was in school, where a teacher gave the whole class detention because of the behaviour of a few. It seemed so unfair that even though we hadn't misbehaved, we were being punished for the misbehaviour of others. Thankfully, teachers were generally fair and that happened very rarely.

iptba

Helen McEntee interview on misogyny, Seamus Woulfe, Gardaí receiving vaccines and becoming Fine Gael leader
The Justice Minister will step aside for six months' maternity leave but is seen as a future leader of Fine Gael

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/helen-mcentee-interview-on-misogyny-seamus-woulfe-gardai-receiving-vaccines-and-becoming-fine-gael-leader-40247320.html

In the Department of Justice, the three-term Meath East TD has put a major focus on tackling violence against women. Last year she launched Supporting a Victim's Journey, a landmark strategy aimed at making it easier for victims of rape and other sexual offences to not only engage with the criminal justice system but be treated with more dignity, respect and compassion when they do.

Given that less than 10pc of victims report sexual assault or rape to gardaí, organisations like the National Women's Council (NWCI) and the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre (DRCC) are full of praise for McEntee.

NWCI chief executive Orla O'Connor said the minister's approach was from a victim's perspective rather than that of State institutions. "She has shown a real commitment and also an understanding of the issue of violence against women," she said.

"It's been very clear from the moment she came in she has made this a priority. Her approach is to seek out views of frontline services and civil society groups and respond to them."

DRCC chief executive Noeline Blackwell said the minister recognised tackling the issue is a "long-haul" project.

"She has given a lot of her personal time and resources to advancing safety and equality. She has put her money where her mouth is," Blackwell said.

jimwallace197

iptba wrote: »

Helen McEntee interview on misogyny, Seamus Woulfe, Gardaí receiving vaccines and becoming Fine Gael leader
The Justice Minister will step aside for six months' maternity leave but is seen as a future leader of Fine Gael

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/helen-mcentee-interview-on-misogyny-seamus-woulfe-gardai-receiving-vaccines-and-becoming-fine-gael-leader-40247320.html

Not surprising considering who the party leader is. A corrupt seeking manipulative individual full of spin and more importantly full of ****e. Talks alot about coming down hard on crime but is committing criminal acts himself as head of state.

She was of course promoted by him, minister of state for European affairs. How on earth does this qualify someone who has qualifications from DCU in economics, politics and law. Then after this, pursues a masters in Journalism & Media studies. Not exactly setting the world on fire would be interested to see her results from this period. Journalism though, interesting that Varadkar himself has his own spin department, Harris dropped out of studying journalism and she has a masters in journalism. Party of propaganda and manipulation more like.

Inherits her Daddys seat in Meath with the help of that utter gob****e (enda kenny), and now is in a postion where she is completely out of her depth but promoting a pro feminist agenda in a bid to gain her more votes.

The fact that she and the likes of Simon Harris are vying for the future leadership of Fine Gael says it all to me really. What a disgusting, hypocritical, woke, P.O.S party.

One eyed Jack

Augme wrote: »

Statistically speaking people are raped far more often than they are falsely accused so if you automatically believe someone who says they were raped you will be correct far more often than not believing them.

That’s some curious logic you’re employing there. I know it’s often said, but you’re literally trying to compare apples and oranges. If you want to rely on statistical comparisons to make an argument, then you would have to admit that the number of people who have experienced rape is actually quite small by comparison to the number of people who have not experienced rape. Where that leaves your argument in relation to automatic belief in relation to a person who has experienced rape, I’m not sure, as I don’t think that’s the argument you intended to make?

It would have nothing to do with the number of people who are accused of committing rape, which is an entirely different statistic, or whether or not a person is right or wrong to believe the person or persons were falsely accused in any case.

iptba

iptba wrote: »

Helen McEntee interview on misogyny, Seamus Woulfe, Gardaí receiving vaccines and becoming Fine Gael leader
The Justice Minister will step aside for six months' maternity leave but is seen as a future leader of Fine Gael

In the Department of Justice, the three-term Meath East TD has put a major focus on tackling violence against women. Last year she launched Supporting a Victim's Journey, a landmark strategy aimed at making it easier for victims of rape and other sexual offences to not only engage with the criminal justice system but be treated with more dignity, respect and compassion when they do.

Given that less than 10pc of victims report sexual assault or rape to gardaí, organisations like the National Women's Council (NWCI) and the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre (DRCC) are full of praise for McEntee.

NWCI chief executive Orla O'Connor said the minister's approach was from a victim's perspective rather than that of State institutions. "She has shown a real commitment and also an understanding of the issue of violence against women," she said.

"It's been very clear from the moment she came in she has made this a priority. Her approach is to seek out views of frontline services and civil society groups and respond to them."

DRCC chief executive Noeline Blackwell said the minister recognised tackling the issue is a "long-haul" project.

"She has given a lot of her personal time and resources to advancing safety and equality. She has put her money where her mouth is," Blackwell said.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/helen-mcentee-interview-on-misogyny-seamus-woulfe-gardai-receiving-vaccines-and-becoming-fine-gael-leader-40247320.html

Kerry rape victim to meet minister Helen McEntee over sentencing testimonials row
Woman’s family left hurt and angry by controversy

JUSTICE Minister Helen McEntee is open to meeting with a rape victim to discuss her family's demand for controversial character testimonials to be outlawed in sex crime sentencing.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/kerry-rape-victim-to-meet-minister-helen-mcenteeover-sentencing-testimonials-row-40269964.html

I'm guessing character testimonials are acceptable for some other sentencing? If so, it's questionable that there should be a difference here.

Caquas

iptba wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/kerry-rape-victim-to-meet-minister-helen-mcenteeover-sentencing-testimonials-row-40269964.html

JUSTICE Minister Helen McEntee is open to meeting with a rape victim to discuss her family's demand for controversial character testimonials to be outlawed in sex crime sentencing.

I'm guessing character testimonials are acceptable for some other sentencing? If so, it's questionable that there should be a difference here.

This is the nub of the issue. There is an outcry when character testimonials are used in rape cases but no one seems to care about all the other cases where these testimonials try to influence a judge to reduce the sentence. Despite the fact that the defendant here got eight years with 18 months suspended. If he had beaten someone senseless in an unprovoked attacked and left the victim in a wheelchair, he would not have got more (and when he got out, he’d get “respect”).
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/two-get-six-years-for-assault-in-bar-1.240332

[Deleted User]

iptba wrote: »

I'm guessing character testimonials are acceptable for some other sentencing? If so, it's questionable that there should be a difference here.

Is there any foundation for your guess?