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COVID-19: Vaccine and testing procedures Megathread Part 3 - Read OP

Beasty

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No anti-vax stuff in this thread - it's to discuss the various vaccines available and how they are getting rolled out, as well as testing procedures

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is_that_so

stefanovich wrote: »

Larger population than Ireland. Have land borders and higher population density too. And they did better than us because they acted independently and aggressively. Ireland are followers - waiting for others to act first - waiting for instruction from the EU. Terrified of being held accountable for anything.

Also:

Why are so many people/governments always terrified in some worldviews?

Klonker

silverharp wrote: »

whats Ireland up to that they arent on par with Denmark?

https://twitter.com/alankellylabour/status/1374390324257116165

We won't be that far behind them to be honest. Almost all adults who want the vaccine should have first dose by end of June or early July at least. Taking that, we'd be close to having all over 50s with first dose by end of May too.

Red Silurian

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Israel signed up to be guinea pigs and are small population wise compared to Europe

US have a massive industrial complex and a federal system that can focus on tasks like that, public health is not an Eu competence as we never gave Eu such power (as we are afraid of becoming an USA type entity) eurosceptics want to have it both ways

Uk got ahead by being reckless as they don’t care if hundreds of thousands die (highest death rate in Europe) and by shafting their neighbours

Please stop with simplistic slogans and whataboutisms, this ain’t the daily mail comments section “mate”

So you are saying there is supply but the EC messed up?

Unlike daily mail readers I am very Pro-EU... The EUs failings here are because of the people involved in running the block not because of the blocks existence. There is no reason the EU can't be doing more like deals with manufacturers in exchange for supply such as what Israel did with Pfizer

Red Silurian

IRISHSPORTSGUY wrote: »

We are on course to finish sooner than a lot of EU countries. This craic lately of people picking out exceptionalist examples and using it as a stick to beat the government with is very odd. Thin gruel.

Is the plan still to have 70% vaccinated with 1st dose by the end of June? If that becomes true that is fantastic and would silence any of the governments critics, me included!

If I can't criticise the govt I'd have to do something more productive like going to a pub or something

is_that_so

Red Silurian wrote: »

So you are saying there is supply but the EC messed up?

Unlike daily mail readers I am very Pro-EU... The EUs failings here are because of the people involved in running the block not because of the blocks existence. There is no reason the EU can't be doing more like deals with manufacturers in exchange for supply such as what Israel did with Pfizer

The EU has spread its supplies over a range of vaccines. Sanofi was one of them so when that failed they were already under pressure. There may be questions about the AZ contract but AZ have persistently failed to deliver on any of it. The Israel deal is easy for Pfizer to do, but scale completely rules out the EU for anything similar.

ACitizenErased

If Denmark have the supply, so will we.

Pete_Cavan

Red Silurian wrote: »

So you are saying there is supply but the EC messed up?

Unlike daily mail readers I am very Pro-EU... The EUs failings here are because of the people involved in running the block not because of the blocks existence. There is no reason the EU can't be doing more like deals with manufacturers in exchange for supply such as what Israel did with Pfizer

The deal that Israel did with Pfizer was a one off. Pfizer wanted to roll it out somewhere as proof of concept and Israel took a risk literally betting everything on Pfizer. Once Pfizer got Israel on board, they were never offering that deal to anyone else and certainly not a customer the size of the EU (Pfizer are a big player but know their limitations, unlike AZ). It would have also been mad for the EU to rely on Pfizer to that extent, aren't you always telling us we should be buying Sputnik yet at the same time you seem to think we should have gone all in on Pfizer?

Godot.

Denmark went very big on Johnson & Johnson. They ordered over 8 million doses. At least Ireland didn't overload on AZ like some of the Eastern EU countries.

Red Silurian

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

aren't you always telling us we should be buying Sputnik yet at the same time you seem to think we should have gone all in on Pfizer?

For clarity, any vaccine that the EU can do a deal on, be it the Pfizer/Israel one or any other manufacturer and any other type of deal that can get vaccines in should be followed.

Sputnik V say they have 50m vaccines ready to supply the EU and 2 factories in the EU will also be constructed to manufacture it so they are an obvious choice

crossman47

Godot. wrote: »

Denmark went very big on Johnson & Johnson. They ordered over 8 million doses. At least Ireland didn't overload on AZ like some of the Eastern EU countries.

Another big advantage in Denmark is the mandatory use of a unique personal identifier. Our civil liberties gang go ape at the prospect e.g. reaction to PPSN

SheepsClothing

Our glorious unelected technocrats in the European Commission cannot fail, they can only be failed!

The truth is that the EU is so committed to preserving it's principles of free trade and free movement, that even during a society as we know it destroying pandemic, they still inflexibly persist with them even to the detriment of their populace.

Pete_Cavan

Red Silurian wrote: »

For clarity, any vaccine that the EU can do a deal on, be it the Pfizer/Israel one or any other manufacturer and any other type of deal that can get vaccines in should be followed.

Sputnik V say they have 50m vaccines ready to supply the EU and 2 factories in the EU will also be constructed to manufacture it so they are an obvious choice

But had the EU done an Israel/Pfizer type deal, they would have chosen to rely on Pfizer alone which contradicts what you have been saying about using any other vaccine. They actually spread there bets which is more consistent with what you are saying, although you are saying they should now spread further to Sputnik. An Israel/Pfizer type deal was never an option for the EU anyway because of the scale of supply the EU needs.

Red Silurian

SheepsClothing wrote: »

Our glorious unelected technocrats in the European Commission cannot fail, they can only be failed!

The truth is that the EU is so committed to preserving it's principles of free trade and free movement, that even during a society as we know it destroying pandemic, they still inflexibly persist with them even to the detriment of their populace.

Have they criticised the Irish hotel quarantine scheme? I don't recall hearing anything about it

davetherave

I'd be curious to know what the hours of operation at the mass vaccination centre from that photo on twitter are.

If someone put up a photo of the testing centre in the Aviva taken at 9:46 of a Tuesday morning then it would look very similarly empty and deserted because the first appointments the HSE gave were 10am.

Apogee

Apogee wrote: »

Realistically, less than that. For a start, they are keeping ~50% Moderna back in reserve. They will keep reserves of the others too.

Deliveries as of 14th March vs target for March 31st/Q1
Pfizer 511,290/690,300 = 74% delivered
Moderna 40,800/109,200 = 37% delivered
AZ 206,400/377,000 = 54% delivered

Doses administered* as of 14th March vs deliveries same week:
Pfizer 468,366/511,290 = 92% administered
Moderna 19,389/40,800 = 48% administered
AZ 124,510/206,400 = 60% administered
*Percentages are probably an underestimate, as there is often a reporting lag.

You can see where they have dependable supply (e.g. Pfizer), they are getting it out as fast as it arrives.

Pfizer mRNA vaccine supply keeping the show on the road...
https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/1374618725287145477

Red Silurian

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Constructed? Are you serious? So we won’t actually see Sputnik in any large amount until way after everyone is vaccinated

It’s funny how when one presses Russian propaganda spreaders about details it all falls apart

The factories are physically built and producing but not approved, 50m would cover 14% of the EU population for one dosage overnight

astrofool

Red Silurian wrote: »

The factories are physically built and producing but not approved, 50m would cover 14% of the EU population for one dosage overnight

Which EU factories are already producing the Sputnik V vaccine?

Where are those 50M vaccine being stored?

speckle

Notice:
Are vaccinators especially the new ones being trained to swab...have a 90 degree injection angle and in particular to aspirate in Ireland? Aspiration a precautionary principle now decided to be reinstated in Denmark... that recently had been recently done away with regarding IM vaccinations.
Possible something for the HSE to comment on.

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_p?rurl=translate.google.com&sl=da&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://www.ssi.dk/vaccinationer/injektionsteknik/intramuskulaer-injektion-beorn-og-voksne&depth=2&nv=1&pto=aue,boq&usg=ALkJrhgAAAAAYFsTw2dATQ916fAPs4k30JxNQs54rrWk

https://3wtbogbn37pfwjgtzbk2vubg6m-adwhj77lcyoafdy.translate.goog/nyheder/4614-myndighed-sadler-om-aendrer-anbefaling-om-vaccineteknik-efter-meldinger-om-farlige-bivirkninger.html

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=md8pJFbMVnk

mick087

silverharp wrote: »

whats Ireland up to that they arent on par with Denmark?

https://twitter.com/alankellylabour/status/1374390324257116165

Ireland gave its powers of acquiring the vaccine for its citizens to EU Commission.

The EU commission are reasonable for acquiring the vaccines for the EU citizens.

Do you believe the EU commission have done a good job in acquiring vaccines?
Do you believe our elected government was correct in giving these powers away?

Would Ireland have done better if we had gone it alone?
Would we have been left behind in the vaccine race?

[Deleted User]

Red Silurian wrote: »

For clarity, any vaccine that the EU can do a deal on, be it the Pfizer/Israel one or any other manufacturer and any other type of deal that can get vaccines in should be followed.

Sputnik V say they have 50m vaccines ready to supply the EU and 2 factories in the EU will also be constructed to manufacture it so they are an obvious choice

They say 50m from June.

Also - 2 factories to be constructed - see you in 18 months then. Best case 2 existing vaccine plants to be qualified is 6 months

odyssey06

mick087 wrote: »

Ireland gave its powers of acquiring the vaccine for its citizens to EU Commission.

The EU commission are reasonable for acquiring the vaccines for the EU citizens.

Do you believe the EU commission have done a good job in acquiring vaccines?
Do you believe our elected government was correct in giving these powers away?

Would Ireland have done better if we had gone it alone?
Would we have been left behind in the vaccine race?

I don't think Ireland would have done better if we had gone it alone but I think the Commission could have done a better job. They aren't mutually exclusive propositions.
Within the structure of the EU deal we should have picked up some of the doses that EU countries declined from their mRNA allocations as Denmark and Germany did. So we didn't even use our autonomy correctly within that scope. Though at least from the initial allocation we did take up our mRNA allocations fully rather than rely on cheaper AZ like some.

mick087

IRISHSPORTSGUY wrote: »

We are on course to finish sooner than a lot of EU countries. This craic lately of people picking out exceptionalist examples and using it as a stick to beat the government with is very odd. Thin gruel.

You do have a point.
Once the supply issues of vaccines have been sorted Ireland will fly through vaccinating the public. We will also have a big intake of people wanting the vaccine.

Apogee

odyssey06 wrote: »

Within the structure of the EU deal we should have picked up some of the doses that EU countries declined from their mRNA allocations as Denmark and Germany did. So we didn't even use our autonomy correctly within that scope. Though at least from the initial allocation we did take up our mRNA allocations fully rather than rely on cheaper AZ like some.

Ireland did pick up some of those declined doses, but the final numbers were small:

Irish Times wrote:

Efforts to secure extra vaccines through so-called “vaccine bazaars”, where European countries offer up spare doses, have had limited success. The Department of Health confirmed Ireland requested two million doses through this channel, but received only 138,000. Such channels are now little used as most countries are taking their full allocations.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/covid-19-government-likely-to-miss-target-of-issuing-1-25m-vaccines-by-end-of-march-1.4502674

mick087

odyssey06 wrote: »

I don't think Ireland would have done better if we had gone it alone but I think the Commission could have done a better job. They aren't mutually exclusive propositions.
Within the structure of the EU deal we should have picked up some of the doses that EU countries declined from their mRNA allocations as Denmark and Germany did. So we didn't even use our autonomy correctly within that scope. Though at least from the initial allocation we did take up our mRNA allocations fully rather than rely on cheaper AZ like some.

I agree i don't think we should of gone alone.
Questions will need to be asked about the EU commission after the crisis is over.

Yes we did take up our allocation and i believe we might of got some of the doses not wanted by other state members.

Ireland will fly through the vaccines once we have them.

Red Silurian

mick087 wrote: »

I agree i don't think we should of gone alone.
Questions will need to be asked about the EU commission after the crisis is over.

Yes we did take up our allocation and i believe we might of got some of the doses not wanted by other state members.

Ireland will fly through the vaccines once we have them.

Ireland had an option of going it alone or being part of the EU bulk buying program... On paper, at the time, we would have been silly to not go with the EU as it was probably the best deal going

Another thing to bear in mind is that if we went it alone the HSE would be in charge of procurement and delivery. Given the history of the HSE I'm not sure they'd have done a better job than what the EC has done on that front

I hope you're right about flying through vaccines once we have them

Hmmzis

One more to the growing pile of these papers:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.22.436441v1.full.pdf+html

Would certainly be an option to do some dose sparing in the younger cohorts. Had a positive PCR test? Single dose and done.

NIMAN

A thought just popped into my head, anyone know how much it costs governments to buy these vaccines? Never heard it mentioned.

Just curious as to how much it's working out per jab.

odyssey06

NIMAN wrote: »

A thought just popped into my head, anyone know how much it costs governments to buy these vaccines? Never heard it mentioned.

Just curious as to how much it's working out per jab.

Some details on the prices here

The EU financially supported the development of the BioNTech and Pfizer vaccine and has obtained a lower price per dose ($14.70 than the US ($19.50). The Moderna vaccine’s development was subsidised by the US government, and it will cost the US about $15 a dose, while the EU is paying $18.
The Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine is much cheaper, although neither the UK nor the US can match the EU’s $2.15 deal: they are expecting to pay about $3 and $4, respectively, per dose.

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n281

[Deleted User]

odyssey06 wrote: »

Some details on the prices here

The EU financially supported the development of the BioNTech and Pfizer vaccine and has obtained a lower price per dose ($14.70 than the US ($19.50). The Moderna vaccine’s development was subsidised by the US government, and it will cost the US about $15 a dose, while the EU is paying $18.
The Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine is much cheaper, although neither the UK nor the US can match the EU’s $2.15 deal: they are expecting to pay about $3 and $4, respectively, per dose.

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n281

Even if we were 100% Pfizer - $144million (4.9m x 2 x $14.7) to get a vaccine for every man, woman and child is cheap for what it gives us.

odyssey06

Deleted User wrote: »

Even if we were 100% Pfizer - $144million (4.9m x 2 x $14.7) to get a vaccine for every man, woman and child is cheap for what it gives us.

Yes, even if you take into account the sunken costs in terms of development support and there might have been funds advanced to Sanofi etc for vaccine research which came to naught.