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COVID-19: Vaccine and testing procedures Megathread Part 3 - Read OP

Beasty

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No anti-vax stuff in this thread - it's to discuss the various vaccines available and how they are getting rolled out, as well as testing procedures

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timsey tiger

is_that_so wrote: »

Most delays are not of our making but we may even have more AZ to use at the end of this! It's up to 30K people, which the system has shown it can comfortably deal with inside a week.

More would be great, how would this work?

mick087

is_that_so wrote: »

Most delays are not of our making but we may even have more AZ to use at the end of this! It's up to 30K people, which the system has shown it can comfortably deal with inside a week.

Yes Ireland can comfortably deal with this inside a week and us Irish will take the vaccine.
The damage to vaccine roll out in parts of Europe this will do will not be described as cautious in time but as a disaster.

is_that_so

mick087 wrote: »

Delays and excuses.

No issues in Ireland but again more delays more excuses.

Most delays are not of our making but we may even have more AZ to use at the end of this! It's up to 30K people, which the system has shown it can comfortably deal with inside a week.

Miike

The pausing of the roll-out is fairly standard procedure. It sets in motion a mechanism to ensure everything is as it should be. Yeah, it's annoying, it knocks us back a bit of time and it's really less than ideal but if they DIDN'T suspend the AZ vaccine and it turns out something is detected - You'd all be screaming about that too. There is no winning when drugs/therapies are developed with this level of public watch. This more than likely won't be the last time one of the vaccines is suspended either, just to prepare some of you for next time.

mick087

is_that_so wrote: »

It's not panic to await the outcome of data review, it's a choice a number of countries have made. Glynn and the rest will happily take the hit for possible overreaction so it's not much of a target.

Delays and excuses.

No issues in Ireland but again more delays more excuses.

timsey tiger

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Luke O'Neill is pretty unambiguous about NIAC's decision..........they ain't trusting the science...................

An abundance of caution also can be described as scared of your own shadow.................

We have a country next door to us with over 11 million doses issued and they are banging away. We have used 120,000 odd AZ vaccines and nothing untoward. One document from Norway and we panic.

Luke O'Neill doesn't have to worry about anti-vaxxers and lawyers. It's not like we are getting so much AZ that we can't recover the back log in a couple of days.

That said, I personally think that they shouldn't have paused the roll out.

is_that_so

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Luke O'Neill is pretty unambiguous about NIAC's decision..........they ain't trusting the science...................

An abundance of caution also can be described as scared of your own shadow.................

We have a country next door to us with over 11 million doses issued and they are banging away. We have used 120,000 odd AZ vaccines and nothing untoward. One document from Norway and we panic.

It's not panic to await the outcome of data review, it's a choice a number of countries have made. Glynn and the rest will happily take the hit for possible overreaction so it's not much of a target.

ujjjjjjjjj

Luke O'Neill is pretty unambiguous about NIAC's decision..........they ain't trusting the science...................

An abundance of caution also can be described as scared of your own shadow.................

We have a country next door to us with over 11 million doses issued and they are banging away. We have used 120,000 odd AZ vaccines and nothing untoward. One document from Norway and we panic.

Hmmzis

Cork2021 wrote: »

Spot on! And Luke O’ Neill is right as well.

https://twitter.com/mark_toshner/status/1371401000775528448?s=21

The bit about less than expected rate of thrombosis is interesting. The disease itself is causing large numbers of thrombotic events and it's not quite clear yet what part of the virus is responsible for it (one of the leading causes of death, the other is drowning in your own BAL fluid). I guess with this the S protein can be safely excluded from the causative agents of thrombosis.

robinph

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Not proof, anecdotal, but my sister in law was quite ill after her AZ jab (dose 1) the other day. Vommiting, hot an cold flashes, migrane. She was much better the following day though.

Among my local group of similarly medically afflicted buddies, we all had AstraZenica within a day of each other (5 of us) and I was the only one to get any symptoms that the rest of you might notice, chills, all over body aches, headache. 3 of us had symptoms which wouldn't affect the rest of you in the slightest and were only a side effect of our other medical issues going haywire.

Cork2021

Spot on! And Luke O’ Neill is right as well.

https://twitter.com/mark_toshner/status/1371401000775528448?s=21

Multipass

Leinster90 wrote: »

I hate this phrase “an abundance of caution”. We need to take some more risks at this stage regarding vaccines and re-opening. Keep distributing the AZ vaccine to those who want it. Nobody is being forced to take it. It has already been given to millions of people.

Why do we always have to take the most conservative, low-risk approach as if there are no negative knock-on effects?

If only they had the same caution for the effects of locking up the population for the most part of a year. Absolutely they should carry on vaccinating.

Leinster90

I hate this phrase “an abundance of caution”. We need to take some more risks at this stage regarding vaccines and re-opening. Keep distributing the AZ vaccine to those who want it. Nobody is being forced to take it. It has already been given to millions of people.

Why do we always have to take the most conservative, low-risk approach as if there are no negative knock-on effects?

Kerry25x

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Not proof, anecdotal, but my sister in law was quite ill after her AZ jab (dose 1) the other day. Vommiting, hot an cold flashes, migrane. She was much better the following day though.

I know people who had all the same side effects after the pfizer one (2nd dose). I had none myself.

is_that_so

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I assume it's the cases in Norway you're referring to? If so, they also raised concerns over the Pfizer vaccine after 29 deaths. I don't recall anyone saying we should have suspended Pfizer over that, yet we're suspending AZ because of one death. Where's the logic?

The logic is that the data you keep waving suggests this really should not happen. It could be any number of things at work here but it needs to be investigated. A one week pause is no big deal to try to get to the bottom of it. Ultimately it will be data to add the mountain of data already. I do think NPHET et al are being too cautious on our overall disease management strategy but I have no issue with the caution here.

Mitch Connor

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Any proof of that ?

Anecdotally I know people who've had AstraZeneca & others who've had Pfizer. Both sets reported pretty much the same experience 24hrs post vaccination, a bit of fatigue, aches and pains but not a bother on them the next day.

All your advised possible side effects in both. It was compared to a hangover.

Not proof, anecdotal, but my sister in law was quite ill after her AZ jab (dose 1) the other day. Vommiting, hot an cold flashes, migrane. She was much better the following day though.

RavenBea17b

Dr Ronan Glynn, (I think it was him) has just bee on Radio 5 in UK, was asked about Irelands suspension of AZ. I thought he explained the processes involved fairly well. When asked about AZ specifically, he said that Ireland has had no reported blood clot issues reported after vaccine. He explained that data is being gathered at the moment so can be reviewed. If anyone follows vacciworld on twitter, there are some useful links to real time information about vaccine data and comparable to other vaccines including clots.
I think I read something somewhere that India has administered 20+ million doses , UK 10+ million and no excess cases of DVT or pulmonary embolism.
Saying that, I would of course prefer for anomalies and data check to review average deviation.
Norway had already suspended the Pfizer one before due a review. Lets wait for the data.

His interview I think will be available on the BBC Sound player.

astrofool

Dressoutlet wrote: »

If loosing weight is the magical answer then you can do so without exercise.

Sorry to cut on this, and I see the mod note, but it sounds like the poster has already been through a lot of this, but is now trying to ignore the problems to keep stress levels and pressure low on themselves. Hopefully they get the help they need, but I doubt brow beating them on the internet will cause that change to happen.

Apoapsis Rex wrote: »

The problem is they are following procedures for one 'airline' but not the next 'airline'

Well, airline manufacturer, and there is no known issues with the next manufacturer in this case.

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I assume it's the cases in Norway you're referring to? If so, they also raised concerns over the Pfizer vaccine after 29 deaths. I don't recall anyone saying we should have suspended Pfizer over that, yet we're suspending AZ because of one death. Where's the logic?

In the Pfizer case, there was nothing unexpected, they just presented the data and other people misinterpreted it (the 23 who died were expected to die soon anyway for other reasons, so their deaths were unrelated to the vaccine, and completely expected, hence no alarm bells). It also led to a change in procedure such that people who aren't expected to live much longer (as in a few days or less) are no longer being vaccinated.

stephenjmcd

average_runner wrote: »

AZ after effects are pretty rough in fairness, compare to the other ones

Any proof of that ?

Anecdotally I know people who've had AstraZeneca & others who've had Pfizer. Both sets reported pretty much the same experience 24hrs post vaccination, a bit of fatigue, aches and pains but not a bother on them the next day.

All your advised possible side effects in both. It was compared to a hangover.

is_that_so

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

The vaccine was thoroughly tested prior to approval and has been given to millions of people in the UK without any issues - how much caution do we need? I understand the need to be cautious but at some point we have to accept a level of risk - we do this with all forms of medicine.

Probably, but I think those countries overreacted as well. I don't think it's a problem unique to Ireland.

The situation is 3 people, post-vaccination with a new vaccine, in one country in a short space of time and one death. You need to investigate that and I really can't see why there's such a furore with an answer expected to come in about 3 days. Vaccines have been paused regularly during the development cycle.

average_runner

Ireland has already said it will continue to look at different results with the vaccines as they go along.
If in doubt, then put it on hold. For once they are doing the right thing.
AZ after effects are pretty rough in fairness, compare to the other ones

is_that_so

brickster69 wrote: »

30 in 5 mil Europeans who received the AZ vaccine developed blood clots (0.0006%). This is a lesser % than people who have not received the vaccine and develop blood clots 0.0009 %.

That's great but now you have three together in a much smaller population pool. Health authorities need to understand that.

brickster69

30 in 5 mil Europeans who received the AZ vaccine developed blood clots (0.0006%). This is a lesser % than people who have not received the vaccine and develop blood clots 0.0009 %.

astrofool

ACitizenErased wrote: »

The benefits of the vaccine completely outweigh any potential risk, no matter how “abnormal” these events are, they’re a statistically small amount.

Sorry to go back to an old post, but this stuck with me, vaccines are approved for use based on their own safety data, the risk of catching the disease that the vaccine prevents are not part of the approval. There is no "balance of risks" to the approval.

This is why we can trust the health authorities when medicines are approved, and it's also why when we see something severe that doesn't match previous data that it must be investigated. It's also why people with a much less chance of catching the disease and having complications can trust taking the vaccine.

ixoy

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

An abundance of caution that will result in delays to our already behind schedule vaccine rollout and will add fuel to the anti vaccine fire.

Will it add fuel though? If we didn't, but people saw it being suspended in multiple other European countries, would that not actually fuel the anti-vaxxers far more that it was being "rushed"?

is_that_so

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

An abundance of caution that will result in delays to our already behind schedule vaccine rollout and will add fuel to the anti vaccine fire.

I'm glad at least one expert is calling this out as the overreaction that it is.

Glynn has accepted this as a possible outcome but caution is no bad thing. We're only behind schedule as someone is not delivering promises supplies.

Baggly

Dressoutlet wrote: »

You can go to your GP any day this week and get weighed and bloodwork done to check for diabetes. You seem to be making things harder for yourself.

Dressoutlet wrote: »

OK, this very much seems like a YOU problem and not a GP problem.
If loosing weight is the magical answer then you can do so without exercise. You just need a caloric deficit. Or go to Slimming World, they lose weight without exercise. 80% of weight loss is the food so there's no excuse.

Mod

Leave it there. Thanks.

is_that_so

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Luke O'Neill on Newstalk just there saying we're not following the science by suspending AZ. He must be a conspiracy theorist and/or not know what he's talking about as well.

It's upset his positive vibe! It's 3-4 days by the looks of things and anyone involved in it here has acknowledged it's an abundance of caution. In that they are consistent. With the quantities AZ are sending us it won't be hard to catch up!

Danzy

JTMan wrote: »

The FT reports here (paywall) that AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson have warned that the world’s vaccine production is being threatened by America’s pandemic export controls.

This is causing big issues for Indian manufactures. This is important for Ireland because AZ might get their extra Q2 doses from India.

Both US President Joe Biden and his predecessor Donald Trump have invoked the Korean war era DPA during the pandemic to secure priority supplies of materials needed to control the disease.

Hopefully Biden drops the export restrictions soon.

America are weeks away from having all adults received a shot.

The DPA invocation was about taking the vaccination program serious. The Brits applied the same effort to Astra Zeneca.

It's the reason why both are in the home straight.

They will share with countries that didn't seriously plan or couldn't plan,but unfortunately that will see vaccines divided between Europe, African, and much of Asia.

It's the vaccines that were built using national efforts like the DPA, etc, that will vaccinate most of the world.

stephenjmcd

Thailand who paused using AZ only 2 or 3 days ago pending the outcome of the European investigation have said they'll resume using it tomorrow with the Prime Minister the first to be vaccinated