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COVID-19: Vaccine and testing procedures Megathread Part 3 - Read OP

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No anti-vax stuff in this thread - it's to discuss the various vaccines available and how they are getting rolled out, as well as testing procedures

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NeuralNetwork

stephenjmcd wrote: »

That's sort of the point being made, the vast majority of pharmaceutical companies in Ireland use their Irish plants to manufacture medical devices etc not vaccines. Pfizer have some vaccine production capacity in Ireland but not at the scale required for production of covid vaccine.

Although Pharma companies make medical devices so its not really a different industry. It all comes under pharmaceutical production but its two completely different set ups in terms of factory set up etc

Pharmaceutical companies in Ireland oddly enough make pharmaceuticals. We’ve a significant number of large biopharma facilities here but none of them are involved in these vaccines at the moment. That could potentially change, particularly when it comes to fill and finish.

Medical device companies make medical devices. The only example of a company that’s operating in all 3 areas is J&J.

astrofool

brickster69 wrote: »

Losing the plot now. Does he not understand the UK has no vaccine export ban. They just make enough to supply itself

https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/1369398650946850822

Effectively an export ban, no vaccines being exported, while greedily taking in EU and India produced vaccine.

Should the EU just make enough to supply itself and stop exports to the UK?

political analyst

Deleted User wrote: »

The vaccine acquisition has been pathetic but it shouldn't matter as much as it likely will. Once all the 65+ and vulnerable have had their first shot we should be opening up rapidly. The mere possibility of high case numbers in young people will be used as an excuse for excessive caution unfortunately.

If the numbers of cases drop far enough by April then we probably will be opening up before June. Mandatory mask-wearing will continue probably until Autumn at the very least.

Why would the government want to keep businesses closed longer than necessary? Do people think that the government wants to destroy the economy?!

[Deleted User]

political analyst wrote: »

If the numbers of cases drop far enough by April then we probably will be opening up before June. Mandatory mask-wearing will continue probably until Autumn at the very least.

Why would the government want to keep businesses closed longer than necessary? Do people think that the government wants to destroy the economy?!

At this point their conservatism indicates either incompetence or malice.
The death toll for under 65s is below 200 in a year. Once the 65+ are done we'll be down to single digit deaths weekly and getting properly into the summer when the seasonality with also represses it. Over 65s and vulnerable should be done by the end of April (if they ever get the vaccines they're meant to) so just open up. Not this nonsense of 3 weeks at each level, the danger will be gone so ****ing get on with it.

RavenBea17b

astrofool wrote: »

Effectively an export ban, no vaccines being exported, while greedily taking in EU and India produced vaccine.

Should the EU just make enough to supply itself and stop exports to the UK?

There isn't an export ban in the UK. What they did do however is ensure their supply - investing in the manufacture, fill processes - buying 18 months worth of glass vials etc plus spread their options in many vaccine baskets early. I think I saw an article on sky news Australia mentioning Britain helping them secure doses after Italy block on AZ set of doses.
Yes, the UK is also going to India to get doses- and why not ?
Ireland can do exactly the same - if it chose to.

https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6237682836001
UK also donating to COVAX.
The UK supplies materials for the Pfizer vaccine produced in EU, for EU and UK.
They are also paying for vaccines made, in EU and India. The EC simply didn't act quickly enough at the start of all this, the business continuity plans for shortfalls of vaccines failing trials and so changing timelines (such as Sanofi), for late and late again delivery of approved vaccines (AZ) and revised number Pfizer. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, we are where we are. Lets hope that Q" is better.

In addition, I saw some data that shows France projected supply for April shows a decrease from earlier (last week revised projection) - this weeks update vs last week expected plan for April.
AZ -8%
Pfizer -25%
Moderna - 47%
J & J -63%. r and Moderna.

Now in all this sorry and serious situation those are some of the positive things the UK has done. Many other things have been woeful.

[Deleted User]

stephenjmcd wrote: »

That's sort of the point being made, the vast majority of pharmaceutical / medical companies in Ireland use their Irish plants to manufacture medical devices etc not vaccines. Pfizer do have some vaccine production capacity in Ireland but not at the scale required for production of covid vaccine.

Although Pharma companies make medical devices also so its not really a different industry. It all comes under pharmaceutical / medical production but its two completely different set ups in terms of factory set up etc.

Pfizer couldn't turn around tomorrow and change their Irish production to covid vaccines for example, it just wouldn't be possible

ACitizenErased wrote: »

The majority of pharma/medical companies in Ireland develop medical devices, lab equipment or general medicines like paracetemol, viagra, etc.

Not really

There are a large numbers of pharmaceutical manufacturers in Ireland, manufacturing many many different pharmaceutical products, these include Jannsen (J&J), Pfizer, GSK, Novartis, Sanofi, Regeneron and many more.

Medical device manufacturers include Medtronic, Depuy(J&J), Boston Scientific, Stryker, Abbot and myriad of others.

The only companies who have significant presence in both areas would be J&J and to a lesser extent Abbot, who I believe split into Abbvie for their pharma division.

When we talk about pharma in Ireland it’s the first group and not the second we are referring to. When we include the Med device companies we talk about Medtech, however they are two separate industries in essence. They even have different regulations to a large extent.

There are a large number of pharmaceutical products produced in Ireland outside of Panadol, Viagra or Botox, these are just the blockbusters with name recognition and high volume. Just have a look at the Jansen website alone to see the list of products with Irish involvement

https://www.janssen.com/ireland/products.

I am not sure would we have much spare fill and finish type capacity that is making up much of the current constraints however. Maybe in the veterinary end of the pharma industry here.

And requalifying a Pfizer plant for example to manufacture vaccine would likely take years. The best role Irish pharma can play in the vaccine manufacturing is around supply chain and in maintaining supplies of the products we do manufacture which are needed and possibly taking up the slack for other sites more directly involved in vaccines. I personally know someone in Novartis Ireland directly involved in the supply chain management around vaccines even though there will not be any physical production in Ireland.

Tippbhoy1

RavenBea17b wrote: »

There isn't an export ban in the UK. What they did do however is ensure their supply - investing in the manufacture, fill processes - buying 18 months worth of glass vials etc plus spread their options in many vaccine baskets early. I think I saw an article on sky news Australia mentioning Britain helping them secure doses after Italy block on AZ set of doses.
Yes, the UK is also going to India to get doses- and why not ?
Ireland can do exactly the same - if it chose to.

https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6237682836001
UK also donating to COVAX.
The UK supplies materials for the Pfizer vaccine produced in EU, for EU and UK.
They are also paying for vaccines made, in EU and India. The EC simply didn't act quickly enough at the start of all this, the business continuity plans for shortfalls of vaccines failing trials and so changing timelines (such as Sanofi), for late and late again delivery of approved vaccines (AZ) and revised number Pfizer. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, we are where we are. Lets hope that Q" is better.

In addition, I saw some data that shows France projected supply for April shows a decrease from earlier (last week revised projection) - this weeks update vs last week expected plan for April.
AZ -8%
Pfizer -25%
Moderna - 47%
J & J -63%. r and Moderna.

Now in all this sorry and serious situation those are some of the positive things the UK has done. Many other things have been woeful.

This is Trumpian levels of politics.
How many vials have the uk exported to other countries? How many vials have come from the uk and gone into Covax? Where did the supply for Australia come from that the uk have intervened on? If AZ decided in the morning that they were going to make good on their contract with the eu, can they supply from uk factories?

I don’t have too much of an issue with them nationalising but at least come out and say it, the hypocrisy is astounding. I can’t figure out if the people supporting it here are complete wums or completely believe what they are told. Whether the UK government bought and sourced every ingredient and boris made every vial, it makes no difference, they won’t allow a single vial out of the country.

stephenjmcd

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not really

There are a large numbers of pharmaceutical manufacturers in Ireland, manufacturing many many different pharmaceutical products, these include Jannsen (J&J), Pfizer, GSK, Novartis, Sanofi, Regeneron and many more.

Medical device manufacturers include Medtronic, Depuy(J&J), Boston Scientific, Stryker, Abbot and myriad of others.

The only companies who have significant presence in both areas would be J&J and to a lesser extent Abbot, who I believe split into Abbvie for their pharma division.

When we talk about pharma in Ireland it’s the first group and not the second we are referring to. When we include the Med device companies we talk about Medtech, however they are two separate industries in essence. They even have different regulations to a large extent.

There are a large number of pharmaceutical products produced in Ireland outside of Panadol, Viagra or Botox, these are just the blockbusters with name recognition and high volume. Just have a look at the Jansen website alone to see the list of products with Irish involvement

https://www.janssen.com/ireland/products.

I am not sure would we have much spare fill and finish type capacity that is making up much of the current constraints however. Maybe in the veterinary end of the pharma industry here.

And requalifying a Pfizer plant for example to manufacture vaccine would likely take years. The best role Irish pharma can play in the vaccine manufacturing is around supply chain and in maintaining supplies of the products we do manufacture which are needed and possibly taking up the slack for other sites more directly involved in vaccines. I personally know someone in Novartis Ireland directly involved in the supply chain management around vaccines even though there will not be any physical production in Ireland.

I mixed the 2 sectors up, however the underlying point remains the same and as you say it wouldn't be possible to simply requalfiy a plant to switch to covid vaccine production. That's the underlying point here that I was making when people just throw out the sentence of oh we should be manufacturing vaccines given the large industry in Ireland, its not that simple.

I read this morning that the government did offer assistance to Pfizer and Merck to reconfigure some of their Irish operations to covid vaccine production but it was turned down by the companies due to logistical reasons

is_that_so

RavenBea17b wrote: »

There isn't an export ban in the UK. What they did do however is ensure their supply - investing in the manufacture, fill processes - buying 18 months worth of glass vials etc plus spread their options in many vaccine baskets early. I think I saw an article on sky news Australia mentioning Britain helping them secure doses after Italy block on AZ set of doses.
Yes, the UK is also going to India to get doses- and why not ?
Ireland can do exactly the same - if it chose to.

https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6237682836001
UK also donating to COVAX.
The UK supplies materials for the Pfizer vaccine produced in EU, for EU and UK.
They are also paying for vaccines made, in EU and India. The EC simply didn't act quickly enough at the start of all this, the business continuity plans for shortfalls of vaccines failing trials and so changing timelines (such as Sanofi), for late and late again delivery of approved vaccines (AZ) and revised number Pfizer. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, we are where we are. Lets hope that Q" is better.

In addition, I saw some data that shows France projected supply for April shows a decrease from earlier (last week revised projection) - this weeks update vs last week expected plan for April.
AZ -8%
Pfizer -25%
Moderna - 47%
J & J -63%. r and Moderna.

Now in all this sorry and serious situation those are some of the positive things the UK has done. Many other things have been woeful.

Still dancing around contracts and organisation is really not why we are here. It is a supply shortfall issue, largely driven by one company, who've never done vaccines before. The UK done better line is absurd as many of these chains are global anyway. Quite a bit of their own Pfizer supplies has come for EU plants.

Happydays2020

Is it conclusive in respect to new variants bypassing immunity from past infection?

From Irish times today:

There remain 15 Irish cases of B351, another variant of concern that first emerged in South Africa, she said. Both variants carry a mutation in the spike protein – the part of the virus that allows it to infect a host – called E484K, which helps bypass immunity from past infection.

[Deleted User]

Happydays2020 wrote: »

Is it conclusive in respect to new variants bypassing immunity from past infection?

From Irish times today:

There remain 15 Irish cases of B351, another variant of concern that first emerged in South Africa, she said. Both variants carry a mutation in the spike protein – the part of the virus that allows it to infect a host – called E484K, which helps bypass immunity from past infection.

Helps, increases the risk, any variant can potentially bypass immunity which is never 100%. There is still strong evidence that resistance to serious infection will still be strong. You may not stop reinfection but will have an immune system capable of dealing with the reinfection

Happydays2020

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Helps, increases the risk, any variant can potentially bypass immunity which is never 100%. There is still strong evidence that resistance to serious infection will still be strong. You may not stop reinfection but will have an immune system capable of dealing with the reinfection

Thanks. Will have a look at the Oireachtas report and exactly what was said.

dominatinMC

Happydays2020 wrote: »

Is it conclusive in respect to new variants bypassing immunity from past infection?

From Irish times today:

There remain 15 Irish cases of B351, another variant of concern that first emerged in South Africa, she said. Both variants carry a mutation in the spike protein – the part of the virus that allows it to infect a host – called E484K, which helps bypass immunity from past infection.

No, there are some suggestions from preliminary studies, but I would say it's a stretch to say it's conclusive.
But I don't doubt the propensity of the Irish media to jump to conclusions if there is a negative outcome to be found. Funny how talk of "variants/strains/mutations" has receded recently (in light of emerging evidence that the vaccines do in fact protect against serious illness and/or death) and now all the talk is of vaccine undersupply. This, of course, needs to be discussed but it's always a focus on the negative with them.

eoinbn

RavenBea17b wrote: »

In addition, I saw some data that shows France projected supply for April shows a decrease from earlier (last week revised projection) - this weeks update vs last week expected plan for April.
AZ -8%
Pfizer -25%
Moderna - 47%
J & J -63%. r and Moderna.

Now in all this sorry and serious situation those are some of the positive things the UK has done. Many other things have been woeful.

Do you have a link for those figures? Just wondering what their starting point was.

CruelSummer

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Pharma production here is mainly medical devices. It just wouldn't be possible in a short time frame to switch production to vaccine production. Its highly specialised.

As for get more aggressive, with whom & do what ?

I understand that, what I meant is would we have any influence with these companies here. The US should also be approached this month at any ceremonial events, we’ve so many of their companies here. Leftover AstraZeneca from France and Germany should be re distributed. They’re not being aggressive enough at political level. It would probably take a concerted diplomatic effort. But I don’t buy the story that we’ll have loads of vaccines in Q2. They’re all way under performing on supply and that will continue.

[Deleted User]

There is 0 chance of any unused Astrazenica being redistributed from Germany or France whilst they have only vaccinated a small % of their population. It would be political suicide.

Similarly there is 0 chance of the UK sending us any vaccines before they have vaccinated everyone in their country who is willing to take one.

seamus

France and Germany redistributing their AZ has been well shot down at this stage. They're going to use it.

Our own projections are pessimistic and they've been fairly upfront about that. So while supply issues might continue through to Q2, we will still see a huge ramp up from where we are now and will be fairly close to our projections.

Panicking at this stage and trying to break ranks to claim smatterings of "spare" vaccine from other countries won't pay off in the longer-term.

is_that_so

AdamD wrote: »

There is 0 chance of any unused Astrazenica being redistributed from Germany or France whilst they have only vaccinated a small % of their population. It would be political suicide.

Similarly there is 0 chance of the UK sending us any vaccines before they have vaccinated everyone in their country who is willing to take one.

Very much a box ticking exercise to show that they've asked around. The Opposition will keep at it though, to tap into the frustration people feel, as it's a guaranteed winner every time.

Cluedo Monopoly

Why doesn't our govt adjust their vaccine supply projections/forecasts in line with previous experience? That way they don't look so incompetent when blaming supply all the time. For example if AZ commit to provide 100k doses in April but have an actual rate of 75% then the government does some risk planning and forecasts 75k doses.

I know...government and 'planning'

[Deleted User]

Well Cohort 4 is a disaster. My Father has been told by his hospital clinic that the gp would be sorting it and the gp said it was the hospitals responsibility to idenyify him. His diabetes is under control but his bmi is over 40 so he is in limbo.

My husband is also Cohort 4 but because he attends a private hospital, they cannot sort it for him either.

Has anyone from Cohort 4 been contacted?

Klonker

seamus wrote: »

France and Germany redistributing their AZ has been well shot down at this stage. They're going to use it.

Our own projections are pessimistic and they've been fairly upfront about that. So while supply issues might continue through to Q2, we will still see a huge ramp up from where we are now and will be fairly close to our projections.

Panicking at this stage and trying to break ranks to claim smatterings of "spare" vaccine from other countries won't pay off in the longer-term.

Even with the latest expected shortfalls, I believe we are still expected to recieve enough vaccines for over 80% of the population to receive at least one dose by the end of June. That'll be at least one dose for almost every adult in the country who wants one and end of all restrictions would be in site by then. Now if we have further expected shortfalls well then may need to push our dates out further which will be very disappointing.

is_that_so

Deleted User wrote: »

Well Cohort 4 is a disaster. My Father has been told by his hospital clinic that the gp would be sorting it and the gp said it was the hospitals responsibility to idenyify him. His diabetes is under control but his bmi is over 40 so he is in limbo.

My spouse is also Cohort 4 but because he attends a private hospital, they cannot sort it for him either.

Has anyone from Cohort 4 been contacted?

I know two people ergo it's a disaster! Henry said they'll be working through a list but the present supplies aren't helping anyone, especially on planning. There are 160K apparently and they've allocated 10K this week. It will take time and you'd expect people to be notified when they think they'll have supplies. I believe they plan to have a good portion of them done this month.

ixoy

CruelSummer wrote: »

The US should also be approached this month at any ceremonial events, we’ve so many of their companies here.

The US isn't even giving any vaccines, and is in fact actively blocking them, to their nearest and dearest in Canada who are having bad vaccine supply issues (it ain't just the EU). No chance they're bothered with us.

seamus

I might be wrong, but my understanding of cohort 4 was that initially public hospitals would identify any relevant patients attending out-patient care there. Once that was done, then the GPs and private hospitals would identify their patients in cohort 4.

Maybe I'm wrong?

is_that_so

ixoy wrote: »

The US isn't even giving any vaccines, and is in fact actively blocking them, to their nearest and dearest in Canada who are having bad vaccine supply issues (it ain't just the EU). No chance they're bothered with us.

There's a vibe of childish tantrums in some quarters here and a sense that we think we're very special. Every shortfall just adds to that ire.

[Deleted User]

is_that_so wrote: »

I know two people ergo it's a disaster! Henry said they'll be working through a list but the present supplies aren't helping anyone, especially on planning. There are 160K apparently and they've allocated 10K this week. It will take time and you'd expect people to be notified when they think they'll have supplies. I believe they plan to have a good portion of them done this month.

No take a look on twitter, it is not just 2 people. People are concerned about their family members. There is absolutely no communication. They had a year to compile a list of people, yes some people on the list, their circumstances would have changed, but at least it would be a start. Gps would be much better able to identify patients in Cohort 4.

is_that_so

seamus wrote: »

I might be wrong, but my understanding of cohort 4 was that initially public hospitals would identify any relevant patients attending out-patient care there. Once that was done, then the GPs and private hospitals would identify their patients in cohort 4.

Maybe I'm wrong?

That makes sense and I have heard of cancer patients being at the top of the list. Unfortunately some people seem to have unrealistic expectations now that they hear that group has been started.

Cole

My parents have been getting the Pfizer vaccine this month with their GP. I'm bringing them to and from the surgery, but I also have to collect a consent form and make appointments in person in the surgery prior to that.

I'm just curious if this is standard practice elsewhere? Every time I've been to the surgery, I see people just randomly dropping in to collect forms (and other enquiries). I thought they'd want to limit non-patient traffic in and out of the surgeries.

[Deleted User]

is_that_so wrote: »

That makes sense and I have heard of cancer patients being at the top of the list. Unfortunately some people seem to have unrealistic expectations now that they hear that group has been started.

If they communicated that clearly, then people would not be worried. That is nowhere to be seen on the hse website and hospitals and gps don't seem to have a clue either.

is_that_so

Deleted User wrote: »

No take a look on twitter, it is not just 2 people. People are concerned about their family members.

I'd say stay away from Twitter - lots of noise, even more ignorance of what's going on. It's only three days into the group and Henry also said it's not that simple to get a list together. HSE briefing tomorrow so it's bound to come up.