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Child Item

Relationship breakup

Dave46

My girlfriend has decided she wants to break up with me and me to move out, we are not married but we have 2 children together,
I was given the site by my father worth 150000 at the time i got planning for the house solely on my own as she is not from the area (gaeltacht)
We got a joint mortage for 210000 to build and are about 10 years into the mortgage with another 20 years to go. The house is currently valued at 350000. Any advice on where i stand on this issue i work fulltime salary 35000 per year she doesnt work,
Thanks in advance

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micah537

Would ye be willing to do some couples counselling?

Life gets hectic at times, kids work etc., can leave people taking one another for granted. Some men think that if the woman is at home she's taking it easy and should be doing all housework and kids stuff and the man can sit down watching TV once he stops working etc. If she's spending excessively it's a way somepeople have off expressing a need.

A bit of counselling to see what the actual problem is could do wonders and save a fortune.

Unfortunately Conor could be onto something about her having another guy but possibly she feels unwanted in the relationship.

XsApollo

Dave46 wrote: »

I will contact department to start a mediation process but in the meantime is it a fair split of the bills and mortgage me 65% and her 35%, ive worked out figures and that seems to be a fair solution. We can split grocery and anything for the kids 50-50

She also has to agree to mediation.
As in call them herself to confirm she wants to proceed.
I was waiting about a year for a confirmed appointment for a session and also told there were no appointments in the next year, but got a call out of the blue one day to say there was one available.

I didn’t avail of it myself in the end.
Just giving you a timeframe.

Senature

I echo the suggestions for both legal advice and you setting up your own bank account straight away and having your salary paid into it.

It's important to bear in mind when splitting the finances you now need to include two homes in the budget. Two lots of rent / mortgage. Two lots of utility bills, house repairs, appliances, furniture etc. The second home will need at least two or three bedrooms so the kids can stay over.

If, as stated, one of you will be leaving the home, even if it's in a year or two, this will need to be covered by your combined finances in addition to your current living expenses. Work out how much this would all cost per month / week. Add your own costs for transport, clothing and other essentials. Deduct this amount from your salary and pay the remainder at most to your joint account. Pay for your own expenses from your own account. Ensure the timing of payments into the joint account means the mortgage payment will go through and not bounce.

You will probably both be surprised by how expensive it is to live separately. But there's no point kidding yourselves about what you can or can't afford. Even if you prefer mum being at home for the kids, you are unlikely to be able to afford this if you separate. The above exercise would be a harsh dose of reality but sounds like it might be needed.

Good luck, it can be a tough road.

Mimon

Senature wrote: »

I echo the suggestions for both legal advice and you setting up your own bank account straight away and having your salary paid into it.

It's important to bear in mind when splitting the finances you now need to include two homes in the budget. Two lots of rent / mortgage. Two lots of utility bills, house repairs, appliances, furniture etc. The second home will need at least two or three bedrooms so the kids can stay over.

If, as stated, one of you will be leaving the home, even if it's in a year or two, this will need to be covered by your combined finances in addition to your current living expenses. Work out how much this would all cost per month / week. Add your own costs for transport, clothing and other essentials. Deduct this amount from your salary and pay the remainder at most to your joint account. Pay for your own expenses from your own account. Ensure the timing of payments into the joint account means the mortgage payment will go through and not bounce.

You will probably both be surprised by how expensive it is to live separately. But there's no point kidding yourselves about what you can or can't afford. Even if you prefer mum being at home for the kids, you are unlikely to be able to afford this if you separate. The above exercise would be a harsh dose of reality but sounds like it might be needed.

Good luck, it can be a tough road.

She won't care as he will be paying for the bulk of the two houses expenses. 200 odd quid on the dole doesn't go far. He will be on the breadline while she lives in basically a free house with her bills paid for the most part.

Huge legislative reform needed to have some semblance of quality in these cases.

Senature

Mimon wrote: »

She won't care as he will be paying for the bulk of the two houses expenses. 200 odd quid on the dole doesn't go far. He will be on the breadline while she lives in basically a free house with her bills paid for the most part.

Huge legislative reform needed to have some semblance of quality in these cases.

I agree reform is needed in many areas, but in my own experience, every party feels financially hard done by after a divorce / seperation whether man or woman. I think it is often because so few people realise how the additional cost of paying for two homes for the family rather than one will impact on their lifestyle. And it's a permanent cost, unlike college fees for example which are pricey but only for a few years.

Anyway OP, the split in finances you are suggesting might seem fine now, but it won't when one of you moves out. You need to prepare your partner for this. You sound like you are being very reasonable but you need to look a bit further down the road to protect yourself.

Mimon

Senature wrote: »

I agree reform is needed in many areas, but in my own experience, every party feels financially hard done by after a divorce / seperation whether man or woman. I think it is often because so few people realise how the additional cost of paying for two homes for the family rather than one will impact on their lifestyle. And it's a permanent cost, unlike college fees for example which are pricey but only for a few years.

Anyway OP, the split in finances you are suggesting might seem fine now, but it won't when one of you moves out. You need to prepare your partner for this. You sound like you are being very reasonable but you need to look a bit further down the road to protect yourself.

Not correct, she will only have to contribute to one household and as she is on the dole this will be minimal.

He will be doing all the heavy lifting when it comes to paying for the two households so you can't compare the outcomes for both of them. He will come out of this far worse.

MoonUnit75

Senature wrote: »

I agree reform is needed in many areas, but in my own experience, every party feels financially hard done by after a divorce / seperation whether man or woman. I think it is often because so few people realise how the additional cost of paying for two homes for the family rather than one will impact on their lifestyle. And it's a permanent cost, unlike college fees for example which are pricey but only for a few years.

Anyway OP, the split in finances you are suggesting might seem fine now, but it won't when one of you moves out. You need to prepare your partner for this. You sound like you are being very reasonable but you need to look a bit further down the road to protect yourself.

That's true, but one person, or both, might have another income earner waiting in the wings so won't be as concerned with the prospects of financial hardship.

Senature

Mimon wrote: »

Not correct, she will only have to contribute to one household and as she is on the dole this will be minimal.

He will be doing all the heavy lifting when it comes to paying for the two households so you can't compare the outcomes for both of them. He will come out of this far worse.

Which is why I've suggested possible ways the op can try to protect himself a bit, including his own expenses and making provision for another household, which will be their reality if the separation goes ahead.

TheBoyConor

I would strongly suspect she is cheating on you op. The pattern suggests it. and other people think it too.

She obviously doesn't suspect a thing at this point. I wonder could do some discreet intelligence gathering over the next few weeks, so can you catch her out on something?

raclle

TheBoyConor wrote: »

She obviously doesn't suspect a thing at this point.

I think the OP would notice if she's venturing out in the middle of lockdowns with two kids at home. It does seem the most plausible explanation which he probably didn't want to mention if true.

Gruffalux

Oops! wrote: »

If she wants him out she will get him out... Then it will get messy.

It's the kids i feel sorry for here.

Must admit I feel very sorry for him most of all.

TheBoyConor

raclle wrote: »

I think the OP would notice if she's venturing out in the middle of lockdowns with two kids at home. It does seem the most plausible explanation which he probably didn't want to mention if true.

Well maybe she isn't? Maybe she's playing a longer game with it and abiding by lockdown rules but still probably texting away or whatever. Still is cheating.

If there was no lockdown I'd love to put a spare phone under the seat of her car for a few days and leave the location on in Snapmaps or whatever, and see does her location match up with where she said she was.

FishOnABike

Dave46 wrote: »

Well im not going anywhere for now, firstly cant afford it and want to be with my kids.
Im just worried about the dreaded chat about money and bills, she is still spending crazy money out of the joint account

My first advice would be to ensure each of you open individual accounts in your own names and for you to ensure the joint account has no overdraft facility and is only used for standing orders for mortgage and possibly for utility bills.

Each of you should transfer an agreed amount from your own account to the joint 'mortgage + bills payment' account each month to cover the bills.

As a joint account holder she can withdraw as much as she likes including up to the overdraft or credit limit from any joint accounts. Any debts she incurrs on those accounts are also your debts.

Pay for any day to day household spending e.g. groceries from your own account using card payment rather than cash to have a paper trail that you are contributing fairly to the day to day running of the household.

Dave46

Thanks everyone for advice, im going to have a chat with her this evening and see if we can get an agreement on finances i think % of earnings is fair if she agrees then id be happy with that for the time being

Outkast_IRE

Dave46 wrote: »

Thanks everyone for advice, im going to have a chat with her this evening and see if we can get an agreement on finances i think % of earnings is fair if she agrees then id be happy with that for the time being

Dont be agreeing to anything without a solicitor involved agreeing to X amount now would be seen as setting the bar, but in the long term may be unrealistic.

purifol0

Why on earth should he move out of his own house or even into the spare room if she is the one who is choosing to end the relationship?

TheBoyConor

Because she is the primary caregiver to the children and the house is the family home. No court in the land would put a full time primary caregiver mother her out of the family home. Even if she agrees, moves out voluntarily, she could just challenge it, go to court and the judge will order that she is may move back into the family home.

Him having got the site, paying the mortgage or building the house with his bare hands simply doesn't factor into it when the court is looking at it from the point of view of what is in the best interests of the children. And it is absolutely established that, all else being well, the best thing for the children is for them to remain in the familiar surroundings of the family home with their primary care giver, i.e., their mother in 99% of cases.
It is just one of those situations.

No court in the land would order a mother and her children out of the family home just because the father build the house and claims it's his. In fact, it would be totally unconstitutional for a court to order that, unless doing so was in the best interests of the children and the family.

Mimon

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Because she is the primary caregiver to the children and the house is the family home. No court in the land would put a full time primary caregiver mother her out of the family home. Even if she agrees, moves out voluntarily, she could just challenge it, go to court and the judge will order that she is may move back into the family home.

Him having got the site, paying the mortgage or building the house with his bare hands simply doesn't factor into it when the court is looking at it from the point of view of what is in the best interests of the children.

She doesn't work so has time to do more of the caregiving.

What happens in this situation when a man asks for joint custody? 3.5 days a week each and he pays for his house and she pays for hers. Think I know the answer as the courts discriminate against men in these cases.

TheBoyConor

So? That makes no difference. In fact, her not working in employment means she has very little independent income, which puts even more weight behind her case for remaining in the family home.

We must remember that the Irish family, mothers and children are afforded particular rights in Bunreacht na hEireann. It is from here as well as the obvious moral reasons, that the courts take the approach the do with regard to the family home and the. Those rights will trump the fathers claims to a right to possess the home due to holding title, having built it etc. It is as simple as that.
We must also remember that under the constitution, is says that "mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home". Therefore, it would not be right for anyone or a court to cajole a mother (not that a court would of course) into employment knowing that it would detract from the time spent as a primary care giver.

I don't think there is much more to be said. It is what it is. It is a situation where a man just has to suck it up, take it on the chin, and get over it and deal with it.

MoonUnit75

Mimon wrote: »

She doesn't work so has time to do more of the caregiving.

What happens in this situation when a man asks for joint custody? 3.5 days a week each and he pays for his house and she pays for hers. Think I know the answer as the courts discriminate against men in these cases.

He may have to consider wearing a bodycam!

brookers

Oops! wrote: »

Post #38 ring any bells with you?

janey mac im married nearly 15 years, kids and hasnt been a spark since the day the toaster went on fire. I work, contribute and would never ever ask anybody to leave, i love my kids so much and would say there are thousands like me. your woman sounds she looking at netflix too much and fancies her chances with a local who probably said hi to her.

XsApollo

If it really is over and she is pushing you to move and you don’t it might get a bit nasty.
So
Do not move out.

Do not cause any problems, arguments or anything of the matter, as a phone call to the guards will mean you leaving for the night.

I’d go as far if she does get nasty to bring out my camera for every discussion.
You don’t really need to have any form of discussion with her bar about your kids.
Continue as you were but just cut her out as much as possible.

If you can move into another room do.
Set up your own living space away from her and be there for your kids.

Sort out your bank account and continue as you are paying the mortgage and however ye work the bills. without her having access to and spending all the cash.

You are not obliged to leave the house , it is yours after all but you could be removed if there were any arguments or whatever.

You can live under the same roof and not be together. Even if it means having a tv or whatever in your room.

Organise nights ye have for yourselves during the week/ weekend and get out of the house for the night, not easy now I know.

I don’t know your GF but a nasty woman can make this very difficult and you will get the short end of stick.
I’m not saying she is, I am just saying.
Protect yourself and don’t be baited to arguing or whatever. Give her what she wants, except the moving out part.

TheBoyConor

She is being nice so far, no arguments etc, but that is only because she thinks you'll go along with the plan. As soon as she don't get what she wants when she wants, expect things to take a nastier turn for the worse. I'd suggest a body cam for all interactions from here on in. Keep her at arms length, only discuss what you need to discuss with respect to the running and upkeep of the Family Home and the wellbeing of the children. You are not obliged to entertain her in any other way. Get a good solicitor. Tell them this is the approach you are taking so that if there are any accusations you have it on some sort of record that you had a reasonable plan for how you were going to do things.
Set yourself up with a new bedroom in one of the spare rooms. You might be able to claim some area of the house as "yours". I don't know how big your house is but perhaps an option in the short or medium term could be for ye to agree that certain rooms of the house are for her use, certain rooms are for your use and other areas are common/neutral. The kitchen can be a tricky one, but you could look into the idea of time allotments for each of you.
The only catch with this setup is that, if they are young, the children will grow up thinking that this is a normal way to live.

purifol0

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Because she is the primary caregiver to the children and the house is the family home. No court in the land would put a full time primary caregiver mother her out of the family home. .

Nope that still doesn't mean he has to move out, at all. They can live together while not being in a relationship.

[Deleted User]

If they are not married, the house is not considered as a "family home" in the same way as when a couple is married and does not have the same protection.

Where a couple are civil partners/cohabitating, it is considered a shared home. Family/Shared Home.

MoonUnit75

Deleted User wrote: »

If they are not married, the house is not considered as a "family home" in the same way as when a couple is married and does not have the same protection.

Where a couple are civil partners/cohabitating, it is considered a shared home. Family/Shared Home.

There seems to be little practical difference, if I'm reading that linked page right. She can get an exclusion order to kick him out if the court feels like it. The alarming thing about it is there doesn't have to be any other aggravating factor than one partner wouldn't be happy sharing the house with the ex-spouse/partner.

Mimon

Deleted User wrote: »

If they are not married, the house is not considered as a "family home" in the same way as when a couple is married and does not have the same protection.

Where a couple are civil partners/cohabitating, it is considered a shared home. Family/Shared Home.

Interesting. Doesn't mention cohabiting couples specifically just civil partners which as far as I know is not the same.

YellowLead

Mimon wrote: »

Interesting. Doesn't mention cohabiting couples specifically just civil partners which as far as I know is not the same.

Different rights for cohabitants
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/problems_in_marriages_and_other_relationships/property_rights_and_the_breakdown_of_a_cohabiting_relationship.html

jimmycrackcorm

YellowLead wrote: »

Different rights for cohabitants
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/problems_in_marriages_and_other_relationships/property_rights_and_the_breakdown_of_a_cohabiting_relationship.html

Very pertinent for you op. It might wake up your girlfriend a bit to realize that you can stay in the house as it is yours and she doesn't automatically get a share. You should definitely not move out. There is no automatic right for the mother to keep custody of the kids either. She can't force you out nor apply for a judicial separation etc.

You can offer to buy her out of her share, which, unless she has been contributing to the mortgage or paying for aspects of the property, will not be very much. no doubt though that she automatically thinks she is entitled to the house, have the kids and you have to live in a crappy one bed flat.

TheBoyConor

There is no automatic right for the mother to keep custody of the kids either

There is no automatic right no, but that doesn't mean a judge would take custody from a mother willy nilly. There would have to be a set of extremely compelling and serious indisputable circumstances before a judge would take custody away from a mother. For example, repeated instances of neglect that has not been resolved by repeated interventions, the mother being a clear danger to the children through behaviours like drug use and violence, profound mental instability etc.

She might not have contributed much to the mortgage monetarily, but by her work in the home and raising the children, she could have could have claim to a significant share as there will be a value attached to that work in the home.