Daughter not happy with LC results - anyone else?

Millionaire only not wrote: »

I have plenty proof of snobbery in private schools , same as little Johnny who gets law like his mammy and daddy strolls through college because his job is waiting for him on other side .
Try working your way into it from a humble beginning and no family practice to carry u along !

That's nothing got to do with the Leading Cert though. Nobody strolls their way into high grades thanks to Mammy and Daddy, no matter what school you go to you still have to put the work in. Sure, grinds help but I've never met any student who waltzed in and out of grinds and got the grades without doing the work at home and putting in the late nights.

Treppen wrote: »

So all the grades that were changed was because the teachers weren't grading properly?

Are you working for the Department of Education press office or something!

You seem to think that anyone who goes to a good school gets a H1 handed on a gold plate.

Believe it or not most of those students (no matter what school) who get high grades still have to work their arses of for it. There is no easy path. People don't rock up to the institute and collect a few essays to 'rote learn' .

Enough of the inverted snobbery

I have plenty proof of snobbery in private schools , same as little Johnny who gets law like his mammy and daddy strolls through college because his job is waiting for him on other side .
Try working your way into it from a humble beginning and no family practice to carry u along !

Treppen wrote: »

That's true, I know one school that got 5 625s when they might only get 1 every other year!! A teacher there said they figured out how to work the numbers and distribute the goodies so that the high flyers wouldn't be touched. I don't know though, maybe they just gambled on what approach the department would take and got lucky.

5 625s though, mother of God. I'd very much think they won't have those 5 students holding up their results for the local newspaper photo op, people would be reading it going "yaaa riiight".

They may have had a system but they got incredibly lucky. As far as teachers were concerned, school profiling was going to be taken into account. It also suggests that the school bumped up these students purposely at the expense of other students.

upinthesky wrote: »

My son did HL Irish and German right up until the last minute but was recommended for him to drop down to OL as he was just about scrapping a pass in both.

He got only a O5 in both which i think was unfair, would you see this as a correct score, i think he would have made a pass if he continued with HL?

Nobody here can comment because they haven't taught your son and don't know his ability.

thesimpsons

What I noticed this year that some schools are having multiple students scoring 600+, the type of results that were not in those schools in previous years. One local school had 8 students with over 600 points - in a good year normally they might have 1 student.

upinthesky wrote: »

My son did HL Irish and German right up until the last minute but was recommended for him to drop down to OL as he was just about scrapping a pass in both.

He got only a O5 in both which i think was unfair, would you see this as a correct score, i think he would have made a pass if he continued with HL?

A lot of teachers had zero qualms about failing students who they had previously advised to do OL.

Scraping a pass in Higher level is such a wild card. The mocks might have been easy enough too!

But O5 seems harsh.

Millionaire only not wrote: »

There is numerous examples here from teachers that if u graded your work properly it wasn’t changed.
Private grind schools kicking off With law is only to satisfy little Tommy’s parents and excuse little tommies lack of grey matter .
Bet any money the high achievers got through at private schools.
it was the middle of the road achievers looking for H1’s that they were never going to get the problem is !

So all the grades that were changed was because the teachers weren't grading properly?

Are you working for the Department of Education press office or something!

You seem to think that anyone who goes to a good school gets a H1 handed on a gold plate.

Believe it or not most of those students (no matter what school) who get high grades still have to work their arses of for it. There is no easy path. People don't rock up to the institute and collect a few essays to 'rote learn' .

Enough of the inverted snobbery

upinthesky

Pistachio19 wrote: »

Has he checked the marks the teacher gave him? If they are higher then he can appeal to see if there was any error in the process from teachers grade to grade given.

All his marks have been lowered by calculating, some teachers gave him marks in the 60 category and then the he was lowered into the 50 category I take it a H5 is in the 50s but 60 and up is a H4? That’s judge if that’s the case..

Pistachio19

upinthesky wrote: »

My son did HL Irish and German right up until the last minute but was recommended for him to drop down to OL as he was just about scrapping a pass in both.

He got only a O5 in both which i think was unfair, would you see this as a correct score, i think he would have made a pass if he continued with HL?

Has he checked the marks the teacher gave him? If they are higher then he can appeal to see if there was any error in the process from teachers grade to grade given.

Gerry T

Iscreamkone wrote: »

If the teachers scores were not downgraded then the grade inflation from previous years would have been huge. In other words teachers across the board gave students too many marks. Even so, this year's high scores will be in the system for years to come with students applying in 2021 and 2022 when the points will drift lower, and LC students from 2021 and 2022 having to repeat and apply to lower points years in the future.

Continuous assessment would drive points up as teachers will score too highly.

(Also, there has been very little talk about those who got their points in previous years. How did they get on versus the inflated grades of 2020?)

I had two doing the LC. For both of them the were marked down in all marks given bar one subject. Yes they both went to a private school where this yr there were no 625 students but in previous years there would be.
For my pair it's no issue as they both got the courses they wanted, they were average students, neither great or poor, but their friends weren't so lucky.
My take on it is the grade the teacher gave is less important to the class ranking.

I'm open to correction on this, the way I see it, without class standardisation if the state proportion (made up) in Maths 5%h1, 10%h2, 10%h3 etc.... then per 100 students 5 get a h1, 10 a h2 and so on. If your school has 100 pupils doing the LC then that school after adjustment will get on average 5 h1 in Maths. This is the inequality of it all, a school that performs consistently better than most, say the institute in Dublin (and no my pair didn't go there) where out of 100 Math's students their is possibly 10 getting a h1, then 5 students get downgraded. Likewise a school that historically might only get 1 or 2 h1's will find 2 or 3 students upgraded.
This is where class ranking is so important if you are ranked 6,7,7 in the class and while you might deserve a h1 your the pupil getting downgraded.
The moral of this sorry saga, for 2021 enroll in a school that performs typically very poorly and make sure your not in a class with all the high achievers in the school.

Schools that would typically perform better than the average school have been disadvantaged, that includes private and public schools. What a student deserved has been replaced by a class ranking so your not measured on your achievement v an exam but v your fellow class mates.

IF correct such a **** and totally biased system. M.Martin hang your head in shame.

p.s. While I disagree with one or two of the grades teaches have given my pair, I do feel they gave what was in the best of their judgement that child deserved. However I don't think it's possible to be fully impartial in getting class ranking correct.

EDIT:
While my pair had their marks reduced, luckily one child had no grades reduced, the other had two grade reductions. But both got border marks, 59 and 69, but in neither case did they get a grade increase.

upinthesky

My son did HL Irish and German right up until the last minute but was recommended for him to drop down to OL as he was just about scrapping a pass in both.

He got only a O5 in both which i think was unfair, would you see this as a correct score, i think he would have made a pass if he continued with HL?

Iscreamkone

If the teachers scores were not downgraded then the grade inflation from previous years would have been huge. In other words teachers across the board gave students too many marks. Even so, this year's high scores will be in the system for years to come with students applying in 2021 and 2022 when the points will drift lower, and LC students from 2021 and 2022 having to repeat and apply to lower points years in the future.

Continuous assessment would drive points up as teachers will score too highly.

(Also, there has been very little talk about those who got their points in previous years. How did they get on versus the inflated grades of 2020?)

It wasnt me123

tiktoktoegirl wrote: »

You do realise all those skills are taught fully later on in college and work, right? Cramming is hard enough for the leaving cert, college is a completely different ball game, and that’s not even factoring the level of maturity you gain as you age, are independent and live by yourself etc.

Do you seriously think any 15/16 year olds entering their leaving cycle have such developed organization skills and priorities set? .........

No, those skills are taught from day dot, we are talking about life skills, not just educational skills, which are important. Employers are not supposed to teach you how to perform everyday, not just for 3 hours a year. You are not supposed to cram, you are missing the point. If you worked reasonably well to very good in 5th year and 6th year, and then did a exam at the end that only made up 30% of the total of the LC, then you should do well.

You don't get a level of academic ability by completing a 3 hour exam - you get someone who can spit out stuff better than the next person.

And you should be doing 5th / 6th year at age 17/18 - not 15/16 - that is way too young to be trying to work out what you want to do as a career.

Work well this year and next and you will be fine.

Chiparus

bobbyy gee wrote: »

most students got higher scores than if they sat the exam by about 10%

Yep, problem is that the ones at a higher level were marked down because they were cohorted , you were far better being a good student in a mediocre performing class , than being the same student in aclass full of good students.

Gerry T wrote: »

Listen, I was being helpful and yr isn't textspeak. What you said was:

You didn't state that. If students sit the exams in November and for arguments sake get the results around Christmas they can be made an offer of a place but they will need to defer given that half the college year is over. That is common sense.

Basically you said as half the yr is over they would have to defer.
That does suggest you thought they would get offered a place half way through this yr. Which they wouldn't. They would have no option to defer.

There is no defer , Ull reapply for cao as normal next year if your November exam is good enough .

If not , your looking at repeating the whole next year I would imagine.

3 turns at your leaving cert in under 12 months there’s race horses out there that don’t get that chance !

Gerry T

rainbowtrout wrote: »

The OP said that they couldn't apply to college with the grades from the written exams, which isn't true. Of course they won't be able to start a course half way through a college year. I didn't think that needed to be pointed out.

As grades were up this year in comparison to last year and they can mix and match grades from calculated and written exams, I would say this years students have an advantage over the students sitting the exam in 2021.

And we don't use textspeak on the forum.

Listen, I was being helpful and yr isn't textspeak. What you said was:

You didn't state that. If students sit the exams in November and for arguments sake get the results around Christmas they can be made an offer of a place but they will need to defer given that half the college year is over. That is common sense.

Basically you said as half the yr is over they would have to defer.
That does suggest you thought they would get offered a place half way through this yr. Which they wouldn't. They would have no option to defer.

bobbyy gee

most students got higher scores than if they sat the exam by about 10%

tiktoktoegirl

mrsdewinter wrote: »

There are good things about the conventional LC: it's anonymous, so it's kinda meritocratic ðŸ˜; with 7 subjects, it provides a broad education.

But it comes down to what we want from the LC. At the moment, it rewards people who perform well over 3 hours on an afternoon in June. That's not a skill that's transferable to most other areas of life.

I don't have children but I'm a taxpayer, so my perspective is: what kind of work habits does the system instil? I'd prefer to work with somebody who has discipline, can organise their tasks & workload, can work at a steady pace over a longer period, and who can get on with both their peers and, hey, maybe professionals in their 40s too... not somebody who goes on the doss for 2 years but then, somehow, pulls it out of the bag for the big day.

You do realise all those skills are taught fully later on in college and work, right? Cramming is hard enough for the leaving cert, college is a completely different ball game, and that’s not even factoring the level of maturity you gain as you age, are independent and live by yourself etc.

Do you seriously think any 15/16 year olds entering their leaving cycle have such developed organization skills and priorities set? Most are probably thinking of their next house party or prinks.. what you mainly get from the Leaving Cert is your level of academic ability. Those later, essential work ethic skills you learn with personal growth and experience in third level and the workforce.

All of us are young and stupid at some point or another.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You have zero evidence to back that up, it's all just pure conjecture on your part. And believe me, I'm no fan of grind schools, but students deserved to get the grades they were capable of, regardless of what school they were in.

The idea that a high achieving student may have been marked down this year because they were in a grind school, but if they were in a run of the mill community school they would have not been marked down is wrong.

Yes ur correct we have no evidence bar what we have been finding out . 10students with H1’s last2 hovering around 91/92 . Teacher said the reason they were borderline h1 . Result they were downgraded to h2

mrsdewinter

tiktoktoegirl wrote: »

I’m currently in fifth year and the amount of people advocating for continuous assessments genuinely scares me..

I’d rather be stressing over tests for two weeks instead of two whole years of my life. We all have our off days, even during our Leaving Cert. The only difference is that doing a few bad class tests would honestly discourage me immensely if it had any bearing on my final result- at least now I know it doesn’t matter, I can make it up, see where I went wrong and I can improve for the real thing. All it takes is a few bad grades, and it’ll be a blip on your record.. and lets face it, not everyones in the position to be studying for every exam 24/7 everyday all day.

Teacher bias is also a huge issue- it’s pure retarded idealistic nonsense saying “teachers shouldn’t hate students for no reason and show preference blah blah blah” because lets face it, it DOES happen. A lot more frequently than we’d like. My German teacher can’t be described in any kinder terms than being a pure bitch, she actually prefers students who mess in class and get solid NG’s to students who try. She’s by far the only exception, would you want these people to have any say in your child's final grade? Why should I suck up to her so she doesn’t try to downgrade me every chance she gets?

The LC is the best system truly, anonymous and the fairest tbh. It not only gives students a platform to prove themselves, but it allows you to make mistakes along the road and learn from them in the end.. isn’t this what learning is all about truly?

You could’ve missed 3 months of schoolwork after being severely hospitalized. With final exams you can catch up, with continuous assessments that blip in the record would REMAIN. Is that what you want?

Should I sacrifice my social life and mental health so I spend 8 hours of study after school so I can ace every class test I have to at least get a shot at applying for medicine?? Be realistic!!

There are good things about the conventional LC: it's anonymous, so it's kinda meritocratic ðŸ˜; with 7 subjects, it provides a broad education.

But it comes down to what we want from the LC. At the moment, it rewards people who perform well over 3 hours on an afternoon in June. That's not a skill that's transferable to most other areas of life.

I don't have children but I'm a taxpayer, so my perspective is: what kind of work habits does the system instil? I'd prefer to work with somebody who has discipline, can organise their tasks & workload, can work at a steady pace over a longer period, and who can get on with both their peers and, hey, maybe professionals in their 40s too... not somebody who goes on the doss for 2 years but then, somehow, pulls it out of the bag for the big day.

Millionaire only not wrote: »

There is numerous examples here from teachers that if u graded your work properly it wasn’t changed.
Private grind schools kicking off With law is only to satisfy little Tommy’s parents and excuse little tommies lack of grey matter .
Bet any money the high achievers got through at private schools.
it was the middle of the road achievers looking for H1’s that they were never going to get the problem is !

You have zero evidence to back that up, it's all just pure conjecture on your part. And believe me, I'm no fan of grind schools, but students deserved to get the grades they were capable of, regardless of what school they were in.

The idea that a high achieving student may have been marked down this year because they were in a grind school, but if they were in a run of the mill community school they would have not been marked down is wrong.

tiktoktoegirl

I’m currently in fifth year and the amount of people advocating for continuous assessments genuinely scares me..

I’d rather be stressing over tests for two weeks instead of two whole years of my life. We all have our off days, even during our Leaving Cert. The only difference is that doing a few bad class tests would honestly discourage me immensely if it had any bearing on my final result- at least now I know it doesn’t matter, I can make it up, see where I went wrong and I can improve for the real thing. All it takes is a few bad grades, and it’ll be a blip on your record.. and lets face it, not everyones in the position to be studying for every exam 24/7 everyday all day.

The Leaving Cert exams are just like that, done and dusted. Would much rather prefer that!!

Teacher bias is also a huge issue- it’s pure retarded idealistic nonsense saying “teachers shouldn’t hate students for no reason and show preference blah blah blah” because lets face it, it DOES happen. A lot more frequently than we’d like. My German teacher can’t be described in any kinder terms than being a pure bitch, she actually prefers students who mess in class and get solid NG’s to students who try. She’s by far the only exception, would you want these people to have any say in your child's final grade? Why should I suck up to her so she doesn’t try to downgrade me every chance she gets?

The LC is the best system truly, anonymous and the fairest tbh. It not only gives students a platform to prove themselves, but it allows you to make mistakes along the road and learn from them in the end.. isn’t this what learning is all about truly?

You could’ve missed 3 months of schoolwork after being severely hospitalized. With final exams you can catch up, with continuous assessments that blip in the record would REMAIN. Is that what you want?

Should I sacrifice my social life and mental health so I spend 8 hours of study after school so I can ace every class test I have to at least get a shot at applying for medicine?? Be realistic!!

Treppen wrote: »

Ask any teacher and they'll tell you it could have been held in August. The space was available in schools, teachers were willing to supervise.

The turn around happened over a weekend after students + Media campaign bayed for a cancellation due to 'lack of certainty' and 'stressed students'.

Now listen out for the narrative this week from the Department + Media Lackeys , It was all the fault of the teachers because they were 'over generous'.
If you hear Brian Mooney on the Radio count how many times he mentions 'generous' teachers and the algorithms and systems the department used were as good as you could get.

It's plain as day, the department were presented with numerous scenarios and they went with the 'not the uk' one where school profile counted.

There is numerous examples here from teachers that if u graded your work properly it wasn’t changed.
Private grind schools kicking off With law is only to satisfy little Tommy’s parents and excuse little tommies lack of grey matter .
Bet any money the high achievers got through at private schools.
it was the middle of the road achievers looking for H1’s that they were never going to get the problem is !

bobbyy gee

what did she get in the mock exams

Treppen wrote: »

Ask any teacher and they'll tell you it could have been held in August. The space was available in schools, teachers were willing to supervise.

The turn around happened over a weekend after students + Media campaign bayed for a cancellation due to 'lack of certainty' and 'stressed students'.

Now listen out for the narrative this week from the Department + Media Lackeys , It was all the fault of the teachers because they were 'over generous'.
If you hear Brian Mooney on the Radio count how many times he mentions 'generous' teachers and the algorithms and systems the department used were as good as you could get.

It's plain as day, the department were presented with numerous scenarios and they went with the 'not the uk' one where school profile counted.

Just to add the leaving cert there was always casualties, end of the day 80% got better than 3rd choice .
There’s another twist to this if it’s seen unfair to private schools !
If these unhappy privately taught students are as good as they say they’ll repeat and get what they want !
There’s a better chance they’ll recover than the so called deis students if they had lost out !

Treppen wrote: »

Ask any teacher and they'll tell you it could have been held in August. The space was available in schools, teachers were willing to supervise.

The turn around happened over a weekend after students + Media campaign bayed for a cancellation due to 'lack of certainty' and 'stressed students'.

Now listen out for the narrative this week from the Department + Media Lackeys , It was all the fault of the teachers because they were 'over generous'.
If you hear Brian Mooney on the Radio count how many times he mentions 'generous' teachers and the algorithms and systems the department used were as good as you could get.

It's plain as day, the department were presented with numerous scenarios and they went with the 'not the uk' one where school profile counted.

And ok carry on with the leaving and hold the exams in august . But now look at the difference in teaching that had gone on !
Some schools were exceptional and others and mainly the deis schools low achievers went on holidays . They were going to be the first to complain again!

So what ever way u looked at it , it was going to go wrong that’s if u want to call this result wrong .
I see here in my locality everyone seems happy and also seems to have agreed it was fair .

Millionaire only not wrote: »

There was never going to be a fair way, just can’t be done ! They gave a result if ur not happy sit the exams u weren’t happy with end off .
At end of the day they were only estimates so never going to be fool prove

Ask any teacher and they'll tell you it could have been held in August. The space was available in schools, teachers were willing to supervise.

The turn around happened over a weekend after students + Media campaign bayed for a cancellation due to 'lack of certainty' and 'stressed students'.

Now listen out for the narrative this week from the Department + Media Lackeys , It was all the fault of the teachers because they were 'over generous'.
If you hear Brian Mooney on the Radio count how many times he mentions 'generous' teachers and the algorithms and systems the department used were as good as you could get.

It's plain as day, the department were presented with numerous scenarios and they went with the 'not the uk' one where school profile counted.

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I may be forgetting something, but I'm pretty sure there was a concerted campaign by parents and students to have this years exams abandoned. Weren't the students polled and the vast majority wanted them called off?

I guess for some students it's a case of be careful of what you wish for.

IMO the exams should've been conducted in July/August as they had originally intended to.

Here's one 'Journalist' who spear headed the campaign to abandon the LC in August and get predicted grades

She was actively calling on Irish parents to apply to the Uk college which would force teachers here to provide predicted grades..
Parents can call a halt to the flawed plan that would force their children to sit the Leaving Cert, writes Dr Ciara Kelly

and when she gets what she wants. Now it's

middle-class-students-have-been-thrown-under-the-bus

In saying all that I do think there has been dicking around with the system to go the opposite to the UK.

Iodine1

Gerry T wrote: »

Places this yr would be full. They would have to apply next yr and compete with that yr's students.

This is my understanding of the position. They will not be offered anything this year. They apply through the CAO along with everyone else. I am not an authority on it, so am open to correction.