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2020 the battle of the septuagenarians - Trump vs Biden, Part 2

Beasty

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Leroy42

Kidchameleon wrote: »

The DNC, whilst having higher TV ratings, was overshadowed by the RNC which had higher combined TV and online views. It appears that Americans are sick of the democrats and their identity politics fueled riots. I'd go so far as to say Trump is heading for a landslide.

The Trump campaign, the Republican National Committee and their joint-fundraising committees raked in $76 million during the 2020 Republican National Convention whilst the Biden campaign brought in just $70 million during the DNC

The Trump campaign’s efforts exceeded those of the Biden campaign.

The Republican National Convention brought in 147.9 million total views across television and online between Monday and the end of Thursday night's programming whilst The DNC convention had a mere 122 million total viewers through television and online.

More information:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-campaign-millions-republican-national-convention

Trumps whole sthick is identity politics. Labelling everyone else as left wing socialists and rioters.

Without identity politics Trump has nothing to talk about.

He has just changed the traditional identities to new ones. Minorities, gun owners, freedom lovers, neo nazis etc

Leroy42

Kidchameleon wrote: »

The DNC, whilst having higher TV ratings, was overshadowed by the RNC which had higher combined TV and online views. It appears that Americans are sick of the democrats and their identity politics fueled riots. I'd go so far as to say Trump is heading for a landslide.

The Trump campaign, the Republican National Committee and their joint-fundraising committees raked in $76 million during the 2020 Republican National Convention whilst the Biden campaign brought in just $70 million during the DNC

The Trump campaign’s efforts exceeded those of the Biden campaign.

The Republican National Convention brought in 147.9 million total views across television and online between Monday and the end of Thursday night's programming whilst The DNC convention had a mere 122 million total viewers through television and online.

More information:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-campaign-millions-republican-national-convention

ohnonotgmail

Danzy wrote: »

Whatever about the right or wrong of Kyle's shooting or his character.

We can all surely agree that the world is a nicer and safer place for kids and women now that those 2 pricks are dead.

we can all certainly agree that the world will be a nicer and safer place when Kyle spends the rest of his life in prison.

[Deleted User]

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

Can you provide any evidence for this claim?

Excess deaths indicates as much.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-excess-deaths-tally-in-the-us-is-204691-in-7-months-so-covid-19-deaths-might-be-undercounted-2020-08-13

Leroy42

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

According to data released by the CDC 94% of those people that are listed as covid deaths, died with a serious underlying condition so it's safe to say that they died with covid rather than from covid alone.

So how many Americans died as a direct result of covid? Around 10,000 but I'm sure people will claim if they died with covid then covid was the cause of death :rolleyes: .

http://nbc25news.com/news/local/cdc-94-of-covid-19-deaths-had-underlying-medical-conditions

you can pretty much excuse anything using that logic.

People get murdered, well they would have died eventually. Euthanasia, sure why not, the old haven't got much time left anyway.

Sure many of those killed in 9/11 had health problems or would have developed them so did they really lose out?

What are the excess death numbers vs say the average of the last 5 years? Over 200k according to protonmikes link. Obviously you have different numbers that indicate hardly any excess deaths. Perhaps you could provide a link?

But even if we take your point as reasonable. Surely that implies that Trump was even more irresponsible to have done nothing about the virus for so long, pretending it was all a hoak, or would simply go away, knowing how it would impact on those with current health problems?

namloc1980

Leroy42 wrote: »

you can pretty much excuse anything using that logic.

People get murdered, well they would have died eventually. Euthanasia, sure why not, the old haven't got much time left anyway.

Sure many of those killed in 9/11 had health problems or would have developed them so did they really lose out?

What are the excess death numbers vs say the average of the last 5 years? Over 200k according to protonmikes link. Obviously you have different numbers that indicate hardly any excess deaths. Perhaps you could provide a link?

Excess deaths are over 200k and is the most accurate measure of the impact of Covid-19. Trumpists trying to obfuscate things as usual with the co-morbidity stuff, "sure, they would've died anyway".

ThunbergsAreGo

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

According to data released by the CDC 94% of those people that are listed as covid deaths, died with a serious underlying condition so it's safe to say that they died with covid rather than from covid alone.

So how many Americans died as a direct result of covid? Around 10,000 but I'm sure people will claim if they died with covid then covid was the cause of death :rolleyes: .

http://nbc25news.com/news/local/cdc-94-of-covid-19-deaths-had-underlying-medical-conditions

Thats just wrong, many of the other illness there were likely caught as a direct consequence of COVID. So you are right they didnt die with COVID alone, but that is not the same at all as not dieing from COVID.

The actual mortality rate of COVID and the balance of the economy vs lockdown are for other threads.

ohnonotgmail

namloc1980 wrote: »

Excess deaths are over 200k and is the most accurate measure of the impact of Covid-19. Trumpists trying to obfuscate things as usual with the co-morbidity stuff, "sure, they would've died anyway".

we are all going to die anyway so the point that trumpists make is particularly stupid. it does show that the party that considers itself pro-life is spectacularly callous when it comes to deaths. they basically have a 9/11 every couple of days and they dont give a monkeys.

namloc1980

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

we are all going to die anyway so the point that trumpists make is particularly stupid. it does show that the party that considers itself pro-life is spectacularly callous when it comes to deaths. they basically have a 9/11 every couple of days and they dont give a monkeys.

57% of Republicans think that c.180k deaths from Covid is acceptable. The "pro-life" party! https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2020/08/23/poll-57-of-republicans-find-coronavirus-death-toll-now-over-176000-acceptable/#565e540e46c6

duploelabs

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

we are all going to die anyway so the point that trumpists make is particularly stupid. it does show that the party that considers itself pro-life is spectacularly callous when it comes to deaths. they basically have a 9/11 every couple of days and they dont give a monkeys.

That's because 9/11 was done by foreigners who have a different faith and skin colour than them

LessOutragePlz

namloc1980 wrote: »

57% of Republicans think that c.180k deaths from Covid is acceptable. The "pro-life" party! https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2020/08/23/poll-57-of-republicans-find-coronavirus-death-toll-now-over-176000-acceptable/#565e540e46c6

The death per million figure of 552 for the USA is similar to the death per million figure of the UK, Sweden, France and Italy.

So the US ain't doing a terrible job at dealing with it despite people constantly talking about the total deaths.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-covid-deaths-per-million?tab=table

Eric Cartman

dwayneshintzy wrote: »

Very often, the single biggest determining factor as to whether a protest turns violent is the actions of the police towards that protest.

The biggest determining factor in protests getting violent is the maturity and attitudes of the protestors, groups like antifa or blm are most often comprised of people living off their parents or the welfare state who have nothing to lose and a jealous distaste for businesses and the wealthy, they dont see how short sighted property damage is and fail fo see the immorality of looting.

Protestors get violent to things they don't have respect for , its why right wing groups have no issue attacking counter protests and left wing groups have no issue attacking property, police, businesses, counter protests, white people, wealthy people, Non aligned politicians, flags, monuments and statues etc...

ohnonotgmail

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

The death per million figure of 552 for the USA is similar to the death per million figure of the UK, Sweden, France and Italy.

So the US ain't doing a terrible job at dealing with it despite people constantly talking about the total deaths.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-covid-deaths-per-million?tab=table

the difference is that the deaths per million rate for the US is still on a vertical trajectory. the others (with the exception of the UK) have leveled out. it is september tomorrow and they still have not got a grip on the virus. there is no will from trump to solve the problem. he didnt even mention it during the RNC. 180,000 and not a word about them.

[Deleted User]

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

The death per million figure of 552 for the USA is similar to the death per million figure of the UK, Sweden, France and Italy.

So the US ain't doing a terrible job at dealing with it despite people constantly talking about the total deaths.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-covid-deaths-per-million?tab=table

The UK, Sweden and France were hit badly because they handled it terribly. Italy was one of the first hit countries and simply wasn't equipped to cope with it. So, why are you classifying it as a not terrible job?

Igotadose

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The biggest determining factor in protests getting violent is the maturity and attitudes of the protestors, groups like antifa or blm are most often comprised of people living off their parents or the welfare state who have nothing to lose and a jealous distaste for businesses and the wealthy, they dont see how short sighted property damage is and fail fo see the immorality of looting.

Protestors get violent to things they don't have respect for , its why right wing groups have no issue attacking counter protests and left wing groups have no issue attacking property, police, businesses, counter protests, white people, wealthy people, Non aligned politicians, flags, monuments and statues etc...

Murderer in Wisconsin was 17. His mother drove him to the protest so he could play cop, and while at it murder two people
Alt-right types with Proud in their names typically live in their basements or on the dole. Ammon Bundy, recently arrested, lives at home.

Who are Antifa, exactly? Have you got a link?

Fiery mutant

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

The death per million figure of 552 for the USA is similar to the death per million figure of the UK, Sweden, France and Italy.

So the US ain't doing a terrible job at dealing with it despite people constantly talking about the total deaths.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-covid-deaths-per-million?tab=table

The US is doing a terrible job. The comparison with the other countries you mention is that the US numbers are still moving at a high rate. The other countries you mention put in significant efforts to curtail the effects, massive lockdowns etc. The US came out of lockdown far too early, the president made little to no effort to control or eradicate the virus, spent the entire time talking about himself, accepting no responsibility while blaming everyone else, and generally being a racist a-hole.

LessOutragePlz

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The UK, Sweden and France were hit badly because they handled it terribly. Italy was one of the first hit countries and simply wasn't equipped to cope with it. So, why are you classifying it as a not terrible job?

They all handled it as best they could same as the US and Trump that why I'm not classifying it as a terrible job.

Igotadose

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

They all handled it as best they could same as the US and Trump that why I'm not classifying it as a terrible job.

Same as the US and Trump is debatable. Why take so long to get PPE to health workers? The other countries were faster at it. Why delay months after hearing about it from China like Trump did.

Trump had the Intel and sat on it because he'd been told he'd have to lock down.

Oh, countries that moved more aggressively to wear masks, all did better than the US.

greenfield21

Fiery mutant wrote: »

The US is doing a terrible job. The comparison with the other countries you mention is that the US numbers are still moving at a high rate. The other countries you mention put in significant efforts to curtail the effects, massive lockdowns etc. The US came out of lockdown far too early, the president made little to no effort to control or eradicate the virus, spent the entire time talking about himself, accepting no responsibility while blaming everyone else, and generally being a racist a-hole.

What a load of nonsense, why don't you tell us about Spain and how effective their lockdown was in curtailing the virus?

Leroy42

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

They all handled it as best they could same as the US and Trump that why I'm not classifying it as a terrible job.

Nonsense. They demonstrably could have handled it better, as is evidenced by other countries handling it better. By best they could, you mean to the limit of their personal abilities, then I could agree with you.

Clearly Trump has done a reasonable job given his complete lack of abilities.

Remember that 200k was the top-line number projected at the start, a number that Trump laughed at. There is little doubt that there will be more than that. There was an average of 1000 deaths a day in August, 30k people dead in none month!

Trump said he was going to MAGA, yet here you are comparing America to the worst performers across the world. So even on his top line claim he has failed miserably.

Have you had a chance to back up your claim that Covid is only 10k deaths and not the 180k yet?

salmocab

Jesus wept, the argument is now America aren’t doing a bad job because the death rate is comparable with other countries not doing a good job. Is this the Trump way? Lower the bar and claim victory when the lowered bar is reached.

threeball

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

According to data released by the CDC 94% of those people that are listed as covid deaths, died with a serious underlying condition so it's safe to say that they died with covid rather than from covid alone.

So how many Americans died as a direct result of covid? Around 10,000 but I'm sure people will claim if they died with covid then covid was the cause of death :rolleyes: .

http://nbc25news.com/news/local/cdc-94-of-covid-19-deaths-had-underlying-medical-conditions

You do realise that you can have a serious underlying condition and live a fruitful life years if not decades. Should people with severe asthma be written off as just a statistic that really would have died anyway, diabetes maybe or maybe just being plain old obese. Some people with cancer can live 20 or 30years without it ever affecting them but if they died of covid in your world view they were on the way out anyway.

namloc1980

greenfield21 wrote: »

What a load of nonsense, why don't you tell us about Spain and how effective their lockdown was in curtailing the virus?

Since their main lockdown and mask mandate became effective they currently have a 7-day deaths moving daily average of 22 in Spain. The 7 day moving daily average in the USA is 921. Adjusting for population size the Spanish number would be 154 - substantially lower than the US.

At the end of July those numbers were 2 (14 adjusted for population) for Spain and 1,154 for the US.

Spain has had a spike (especially in Catalonia) but that spike is still nowhere near as bad as the ongoing situation in the US. Not even close. As Joe Biden would say "come on, man"!

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

hotmail.com

Tell me how wrote: »

You asked for policies, what do you think plans are?

So, you think the solution to the crime problems in America need a massive, dare I say it, socialist, actually, maybe even closer to a communist approach in order to resolve them.

Interesting concept. Do you think Trump is saving that for his 2nd term, or why didn't he do it over the last 4 years.

Trying to suss out Biden's policies and posters keep coming back to Trump.

It's pretty clear no one gives a toss about police brutality, the poverty in America, racism etc. They are just obsessed with Trump.

Because surely people should be especially critical of Biden as he is a prospective president. Americans don't need fancy speeches any more.

Leroy42

greenfield21 wrote: »

What a load of nonsense, why don't you tell us about Spain and how effective their lockdown was in curtailing the virus?

Because the virus had already got in by the time the real lockdown occurred. The US had extra warning. Trump was warning back in November but as late of January was telling everyone that China was doing a fantastic job and praising Xi for his handling of it. The US had previously had people inside China keeping an eye out for this type of event, which he shut down.

He then wasted weeks fighting with Cuomo, seemingly on the basis that it was only hitting NY because of Dems and that as it had not impacted Red states than everything would be fine. That went against every bit of evidence that was available. He sought to make it a stand off between himself and them, rather than looking to deal with the problem.

He told everyone that it would soon go away. And his actions show that he worked on that basis.

Tump had the time, and resources, to make sure that the US didn't have to suffer the same faith as those countries that did a poor job, He choose not to. As late as April he was demanding that churches reopen for Easter and he continued to claim that the economy was far more important.

Ther is no indication that the current death rate of 1k a day will be decling anytime soon. Each time aposter comes out with the comparison with other countries the numbers for America get worse. It was only a few weeks ago that the detahs per million were in the 4 hundreds, not its not the 500. Schools are reopening, college, sports are about to go back.

This is far from over and Trump is currently reducing the amount of testing so there is no reason to believe that they are any closer to containing this than they were 5 months ago.

Only a vaccine can save them now. I fully expect a vacine announcement in October, coupled with some vague plans of a roll out and availability. THis will be talked about until Noverber 4th, when it will all mysteriously hit a speed bump about a week after he wins the election

LessOutragePlz

Leroy42 wrote: »

Have you had a chance to back up your claim that Covid is only 10k deaths and not the 180k yet?

Yeah the evidence is right here based on the data released by the CDC.

Let me do the maths for you

180k * 6% = 10,800 people that died directly as a result of covid.

The other 94% died with covid not due to covid alone. Those people that died having on average an additional 2.6 conditions or causes per death.

"The CDC said: For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death. "

http://nbc25news.com/news/local/cdc-94-of-covid-19-deaths-had-underlying-medical-conditions

[Deleted User]

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

They all handled it as best they could same as the US and Trump that why I'm not classifying it as a terrible job.

Nope, both France and the UK waited far too long to start a lockdown. The latter allowed public transport to fill even during their lockdown. Sweden went the route of letting the virus to do its thing. Hence their numbers being multiples higher than their neighbours. So the US is not in good company as a result.

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

Yeah the evidence is right here based on the data released by the CDC.

Let me do the maths for you

180k * 6% = 10,800 people that died directly as a result of covid.

The other 94% died with covid not due to covid alone. Those people that died having on average an additional 2.6 conditions or causes per death.

"The CDC said: For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death. "

http://nbc25news.com/news/local/cdc-94-of-covid-19-deaths-had-underlying-medical-conditions

I've provided evidence in the form of excess deaths. You've guessed everyone would be dead by now regardless. Which is a pretty silly leap in logic. I've got a serious chronic illness, I'm set to live for decades to come. If I got covid, you'd conclude my illness killed me...

Timberrrrrrrr

hotmail.com wrote: »

Trying to suss out Biden's policies and posters keep coming back to Trump.

It's pretty clear no one gives a toss about police brutality, the poverty in America, racism etc. They are just obsessed with Trump.

Because surely people should be especially critical of Biden as he is a prospective president. Americans don't need fancy speeches any more.

You were asked for Bidens plans/policies and when they were posted you changed your tactic.

Are you not bothered that Trump doesn't have the very thing that you are demanding from Biden?

Eric Cartman

the US and the UK have a much larger culture of personal freedoms and 'boo gubberment' than most of the world, the greater good doesn't apply, just individualism.

Regardless of leaders, rules or enforcement , their numbers were always going to be higher and their 'I don't need no mask' sentiments more prevalent.

This is not a defence of either of those governments or their massive f*ckups but it was always going to more resemble hearding cats than the rest of europe.

namloc1980

Co-morbidity is meaningless on it's own. Excess deaths above the expected number is the only accurate measure of the impact of Covid. Using co-morbidity is akin to saying to anyone who died of Covid but had diabetes or heart disease, tough shit. They wouldn't have died in the last few months but for Covid.

The CDC range for excess deaths above expected historic and analytical averages is 184k to 245k due to Covid https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm#dashboard