Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

ezstreet5 · 09-06-2020 1:04pm

Muckyboots wrote: »

Doesn't answer my question - "Why?" would you want to "shift" some of the people using the 40 buses a day to an alternative public transport mode ?

The benefits are:

1. To reduce journey times from Tuam to Galway, which can exceed 60 min by bus during periods of peak a.m. and p.m. travel demand.

2. To reduce reduce journey times from Tuam to Dublin by nearly a full hour in each direction compared to existing public transport options. (Not daily commuters, of course).

3. To connect Tuam to other rail-served towns within a commutable distance.

4. To enable rail-bicycle commuting from Tuam.

5. To provide a mode of transport accessible the mobility impaired.

If I was from Tuam, I would be demanding reinstatement of the service.

Losty Dublin · 09-06-2020 1:32pm

Ireland trains wrote: »

Last time I used a Galway - Limerick service, which I boarded at Ennis at around midday on a Friday, it was over 90% full arriving into ennis and there were lots of people standing leaving ennis. Train was a 2 car 2800 DMU.
Of course this is not representative of all trains on the line.

They're just actors who are hired by WRC. Like what they do have on the subways in Pyongyang

serfboard · 09-06-2020 1:36pm

Muckyboots wrote: »

"Why?" would you want to "shift" some of the people using the 40 buses a day to an alternative public transport mode ?

Because everyone knows that buses are not public transport :rolleyes:

"People in Tuam must use public transport".
"But people in Tuam are using public transport."
"Buses are not public transport".

09-06-2020 1:46pm

ezstreet5 wrote: »

The benefits are:

1. To reduce journey times from Tuam to Galway, which can exceed 60 min by bus during periods of peak a.m. and p.m. travel demand.

Will be addressed by the proposed bus lane going from Claregalway, all the way in the Tuam rd. The council have stated that they can do the most of it easily, but will require CPO's once they go past the junction at Flemings garage

ezstreet5 wrote: »

2. To reduce reduce journey times from Tuam to Dublin by nearly a full hour in each direction compared to existing public transport options. (Not daily commuters, of course).

First, not a high enough demand for that route for that to be a justification, second, are you honestly trying to say that a bus using the motorway from Tuam to Dublin is going to be slower than a train which will require a changeover in Athenry

ezstreet5 wrote: »

3. To connect Tuam to other rail-served towns within a commutable distance.

Where's the demand for that to justify it?

ezstreet5 wrote: »

4. To enable rail-bicycle commuting from Tuam.

Given that its possible to transport more bikes on a bus than the current trains that's just a silly justification

ezstreet5 wrote: »

5. To provide a mode of transport accessible the mobility impaired.

If I was from Tuam, I would be demanding reinstatement of the service.

There are far better transport options which will take folks point to point, I know, I used them for many years.

blackwhite · 09-06-2020 2:18pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

Far more so than the anti rail propagandists will admit. The numbers on Galway-Limerick are now over 500,000 per year. What’s needed is more rolling stock and the political will to actually fund the railway properly.

It’s a bit rich to call others propagandists - whilst quoting a figure that includes passengers travelling on the Athenry-Galway section to try and justify the Athenry-Ennis section.

No doubt the WRC cheerleaders would try to claim Athenry-Galway commuters as being part of both Tuam-Galway numbers AND Limerick-Galway numbers if the Tuam segment was opened :pac:

The only way to get commuters to switch to rail instead of their current options is to provide a service that at the best least takes no longer than either driving or bus.

Tuam to Athenry to Galway isn’t going to compete on journey times with a proper bus service - the same failing that hits journeys from south of Gort into Galway. Once the bus is a quicker option (as well as more flexible in terms of final destinations) then commuters aren’t going to switch to rail.

serfboard · 09-06-2020 2:49pm

blackwhite wrote: »

Tuam to Athenry to Galway isn’t going to compete on journey times with a proper bus service - the same failing that hits journeys from south of Gort into Galway. Once the bus is a quicker option (as well as more flexible in terms of final destinations) then commuters aren’t going to switch to rail.

No you're wrong.

People are clamouring for a public transport option that will be slower, less frequent and leave them further from their final destination becuase ...

Lord Glentoran · 09-06-2020 2:53pm

serfboard wrote: »

No you're wrong.

People are clamouring for a public transport option that will be slower, less frequent and leave them further from their final destination becuase ...

... it came from the imaginations of rail opponents

Geuze · 09-06-2020 2:57pm

Muckyboots wrote: »

Doesn't answer my question - "Why?" would you want to "shift" some of the people using the 40 buses a day to an alternative public transport mode ?

The evidence is that some commuters are more willing to switch to tram/train than to switch to bus.

Some of the pax on the bus would switch to train.

Of course, what we really want is modal shift from cars.

Geuze · 09-06-2020 3:00pm

blackwhite wrote: »

Tuam to Athenry to Galway isn’t going to compete on journey times with a proper bus service - the same failing that hits journeys from south of Gort into Galway. Once the bus is a quicker option (as well as more flexible in terms of final destinations) then commuters aren’t going to switch to rail.

If there was:

single track to Athenry, 160kph max
and double track Athenry to GY, 200 kph max
one station near N63
so the train from Tuam stops twice on way to GY (maybe more if stops in Oranmore, Roscam, Renmore)

what would the timings be like?

Isambard · 09-06-2020 3:03pm

i've said it before, but what's so special about Tuam? In a league table of cost/benefit rail improvements it would be a long way down the list. There are loads of towns of more importance that would benefit from better transport links.

09-06-2020 3:17pm

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

... it came from the imaginations of rail opponents

You mean waste opponents I'm sure because I for one am not opposed to rail, have used it a lot down through the years and am fully behind the full double tracking of all intercity routes, full electrification, increased frequency etc etc

A line serving a handful of people is a waste of time and money for all involved.

Hell even the bit thats built is a colossal waste.

Take a journey tomorrow from Athenry to Limerick. From station to station, its 1hr 6 mins by car

The same on offer on the irish rail site shows jounrey times ranging from 1hr 29 mins to 4hrs+.

Or looking at Galway to Limerick, train 1hr 54mins up to a staggering 5hrs versus the 1hr 17 mins by car. Even the Citylink bus can do it in 1hr 20 mins with the destination being Henry St in Limerick. You could even walk to the station from there, stop for a coffee along the way and still beat the train.

There are only 2 things which are keeping this section open. The massive subvention (it would be nearly cheaper to put the passengers into taxis) and free parking at some of the stations.

So no, you'll be hard pushed to get much sane support for a further waste beyond the wasteful portion of the WRC that is currently operating.

Geuze · 09-06-2020 3:20pm

Isambard wrote: »

i've said it before, but what's so special about Tuam? In a league table of cost/benefit rail improvements it would be a long way down the list. There are loads of towns of more importance that would benefit from better transport links.

Yes.

All services need to be made faster. More double tracking.

DUB-CORK in 2 hrs, limited stops

DUB-GY also 2 hours

Airport link very important.

CORK-LK improved, or new line.

Sligo eye · 09-06-2020 3:30pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You mean waste opponents I'm sure because I for one am not opposed to rail, have used it a lot down through the years and am fully behind the full double tracking of all intercity routes, full electrification, increased frequency etc etc

A line serving a handful of people is a waste of time and money for all involved.

Hell even the bit thats built is a colossal waste.

Take a journey tomorrow from Athenry to Limerick. From station to station, its 1hr 6 mins by car

The same on offer on the irish rail site shows jounrey times ranging from 1hr 29 mins to 4hrs+.

Or looking at Galway to Limerick, train 1hr 54mins up to a staggering 5hrs versus the 1hr 17 mins by car. Even the Citylink bus can do it in 1hr 20 mins with the destination being Henry St in Limerick. You could even walk to the station from there, stop for a coffee along the way and still beat the train.

There are only 2 things which are keeping this section open. The massive subvention (it would be nearly cheaper to put the passengers into taxis) and free parking at some of the stations.

So no, you'll be hard pushed to get much sane support for a further waste beyond the wasteful portion of the WRC that is currently operating.

I’m not sure anyone wants to put half a million people into taxis? Even if you wanted to carry four passengers per taxi you would need 125,000 taxis and that is a rather large number of cars.

In 2016 there were roughly 17,000 taxis licenced in Ireland so you would have to make those passengers wait a long time for that cab to come.

serfboard · 09-06-2020 3:44pm

Isambard wrote: »

what's so special about Tuam? In a league table of cost/benefit rail improvements it would be a long way down the list. There are loads of towns of more importance that would benefit from better transport links.

What's special about Tuam is that it is the only justification for a line north of Athenry. Tuam is the hill that the northern WRC dies on. And any rational individual who sees that Tuam's public transport requirements are already well catered for by 40 buses per day, would quickly come to the conclusion that providing a slower and less frequent train service would be a colossal waste of money - which is why it will not happen.

Sligo eye · 09-06-2020 3:51pm

serfboard wrote: »

What's special about Tuam is that it is the only justification for a line north of Athenry. Tuam is the hill that the northern WRC dies on. And any rational individual who sees that Tuam's public transport requirements are already well catered for by 40 buses per day, would quickly come to the conclusion that providing a slower and less frequent train service would be a colossal waste of money - which is why it will not happen.

That’s a big assumption to make. No one knows what the timetable for any service is yet, but pronouncements are being made by some posters that there would be a “slower” and “less frequent” service by rail. Oh and that anyone who disagrees with that straw man argument is “not rational”.

That is about as poor an argument to stop a rail service from happening as I have ever come across.

09-06-2020 3:53pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

I’m not sure anyone wants to put half a million people into taxis? Even if you wanted to carry four passengers per taxi you would need 125,000 taxis and that is a rather large number of cars.

In 2016 there were roughly 17,000 taxis licenced in Ireland so you would have to make those passengers wait a long time for that cab to come.

You would need half a million using the line, you don't have that, you have fudged numbers.

Nice try though

09-06-2020 3:55pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

That’s a big assumption to make. No one knows what the timetable for any service is yet, but pronouncements are being made by some posters that there would be a “slower” and “less frequent” service by rail. Oh and that anyone who disagrees with that straw man argument is “not rational”.

That is about as poor an argument to stop a rail service from happening as I have ever come across.

It's a single line, please explain how you can do a high frequency service with fast journey times on it.

I'll wait

serfboard · 09-06-2020 4:14pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

No one knows what the timetable for any service is yet, but pronouncements are being made by some posters that there would be a “slower” and “less frequent” service by rail.

Would these be the same people who also predicted that the Galway to Limerick service would be slower and less frequent than the bus?

How did disproving that work out for you?

Lord Glentoran · 09-06-2020 4:25pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a single line, please explain how you can do a high frequency service with fast journey times on it.

I'll wait

It’s a rainy day in near lockdown. I’m sure you can. Pretty sure grandstanding for an answer to the narrowed terms you have decided are the only possible parameters isn’t going to get you a replay in a hurry.

Lord Glentoran · 09-06-2020 4:27pm

serfboard wrote: »

Would these be the same people who also predicted that the Galway to Limerick service would be slower and less frequent than the bus?

How did disproving that work out for you?

All buses? Wow they must be all able to go faster than their scheduled times and leap over traffic with special hover stuff. You’ve converted me to hover buses Serfboard. We want hover buses!

blackwhite · 09-06-2020 4:53pm

Geuze wrote: »

If there was:
single track to Athenry, 160kph max

and double track Athenry to GY, 200 kph max

one station near N63

so the train from Tuam stops twice on way to GY (maybe more if stops in Oranmore, Roscam, Renmore)

what would the timings be like?

So what if we had a commuter line with higher speeds than most of the intercity lines in the country; with trains capable of safely accelerating and decelerating over the relatively short distances between the proposed stations?
You might as well ask "what if we had a TGV line?"

IMO the only way you'd ever see a viable rail line between Tuam and Galway would be a completely new alignment close to the N83 (old N17) routing.

You'd be coming into the City through much of the industrial areas that commuters from Tuam and it's hinterland are actually working in - and on top of that it would be also serving the large volume of commuters from Claregalway.

Only then might you see a meaningful shift of commuters away from buses or cars to a Tuam-Galway rail link.

Isambard · 09-06-2020 5:09pm

new alignment? again, there are dozens of towns that would be ahead of Tuam in the queue if ever funding for that sort of thing became available. Invest in improving the Galway to Dublin line, that would make much more sense (and help Tuam)

blackwhite · 09-06-2020 5:16pm

Isambard wrote: »

new alignment? again, there are dozens of towns that would be ahead of Tuam in the queue if ever funding for that sort of thing became available. Invest in improving the Galway to Dublin line, that would make much more sense (and help Tuam)

I fully agree - I'm not proposing that a new alignment actually be sought for Tuam-Galway - just pointing out that even a new alignment would be a more attractive solution than the old WRC alignment.

Sam Russell · 09-06-2020 5:46pm

blackwhite wrote: »

I fully agree - I'm not proposing that a new alignment actually be sought for Tuam-Galway - just pointing out that even a new alignment would be a more attractive solution than the old WRC alignment.

A new alignment would make sense if it were Luas as far as Claregalway, and let commuters find their own way there. That could then go to the actual destinations where people go - the hospitsl, the University, and the trade estates. It cold be an extension of an east west Luas.

Now that would get commuters out of their cars, leaving them in a P&R.

Isambard · 09-06-2020 6:43pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

A new alignment would make sense if it were Luas as far as Claregalway, and let commuters find their own way there. That could then go to the actual destinations where people go - the hospitsl, the University, and the trade estates. It cold be an extension of an east west Luas.

Now that would get commuters out of their cars, leaving them in a P&R.

In other words, invest in rail where there would be maximum benefit?

Yes, the object would be to enable journeys in and around Galway, accessible to travellers from all directions, rather than a rural line to one small town. Common sense

L1011 · 09-06-2020 7:30pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

I’m not sure anyone wants to put half a million people into taxis? Even if you wanted to carry four passengers per taxi you would need 125,000 taxis and that is a rather large number of cars.

In 2016 there were roughly 17,000 taxis licenced in Ireland so you would have to make those passengers wait a long time for that cab to come.

Are you expecting half a million passengers a day?

Because that would be nearly four times the total network figures last year; which was the highest usage on record.

intellectual dosser · 09-06-2020 8:25pm

blackwhite wrote: »

So what if we had a commuter line with higher speeds than most of the intercity lines in the country; with trains capable of safely accelerating and decelerating over the relatively short distances between the proposed stations?
You might as well ask "what if we had a TGV line?"

IMO the only way you'd ever see a viable rail line between Tuam and Galway would be a completely new alignment close to the N83 (old N17) routing.

You'd be coming into the City through much of the industrial areas that commuters from Tuam and it's hinterland are actually working in - and on top of that it would be also serving the large volume of commuters from Claregalway.

Only then might you see a meaningful shift of commuters away from buses or cars to a Tuam-Galway rail link.

You're planning around the current business locations, where do future business' locate? Where do future workers live?

Lets invest in housing stock in Tuam, Athenry and in between where its affordable, lets invest in business parks in those towns, for example the area zoned near Athenry train station or in Oranmore with the train providing reasonable connectivity between all locations as well as Galway, Dublin and Limerick.

Alas, no. Lets do what we've always done in this country. Lets have the business' locate wherever they like and let the property developers throw up houses where they want. Lets wait for towns and business locations to be bursting at the seams with congestion before we consider how we solve those problems.

We need to think bigger, and we shouldn't be afraid to invest in the future rather than just the present.

donvito99 · 09-06-2020 9:34pm

intellectual dosser wrote: »

You're planning around the current business locations, where do future business' locate? Where do future workers live?

I'm sure the people of Navan will be delighted to learn that the needs of a hypothetical, future commuting public are to be prioritised over their actual commuting misery.

Lets invest in housing stock in Tuam, Athenry and in between where its affordable, lets invest in business parks in those towns, for example the area zoned near Athenry train station or in Oranmore with the train providing reasonable connectivity between all locations as well as Galway, Dublin and Limerick.

Now we're just building to justify a railway. I don't understand why we should build housing in far away towns such that people have to commute long distances by train, no matter how cheap the land may be.

Alas, no. Lets do what we've always done in this country. Lets have the business' locate wherever they like and let the property developers throw up houses where they want.

That's basically what you're proposing, businesses and housing estates all over the shop... except that they're on a meandering, single line railway.

Lets wait for towns and business locations to be bursting at the seams with congestion before we consider how we solve those problems.

Investing in proper public transportation in Galway city would do a great deal more to solve congestion than railway induced sprawl on the WRC will, and may even allow Galway to grow as a counterbalance to Dublin and generate much more economic activity in the West overall.

We need to think bigger, and we shouldn't be afraid to invest in the future rather than just the present.

The reason the WRC has not been completed is not because people are scared.

ezstreet5 · 09-06-2020 10:24pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Will be addressed by the proposed bus lane going from Claregalway, all the way in the Tuam rd. The council have stated that they can do the most of it easily, but will require CPO's once they go past the junction at Flemings garage

Can your provide the status of this project, if there is a project at all?

Deleted User wrote: »

First, not a high enough demand for that route for that to be a justification, second, are you honestly trying to say that a bus using the motorway from Tuam to Dublin is going to be slower than a train which will require a changeover in Athenry

That's just conjecture. And yes, I am saying that you will have shorter travel times from Tuam to Dubln via Atherny by rail, compred to a bus from Tuam to Galway to Dublin.

Deleted User wrote: »

Where's the demand for that to justify it?

Probably in Burke's buses, or cars, in Claregalway congestion, or stuck on the Tuam Road in front of Rocca Tiles.

Deleted User wrote: »

Given that its possible to transport more bikes on a bus than the current trains that's just a silly justification

I doubt that is happening at all.

Deleted User wrote: »

There are far better transport options which will take folks point to point, I know, I used them for many years.

Please share, because a disabled family member living under my roof is only capable of using the train.

end of the road · 09-06-2020 10:37pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Will be addressed by the proposed bus lane going from Claregalway, all the way in the Tuam rd. The council have stated that they can do the most of it easily, but will require CPO's once they go past the junction at Flemings garage

only in the short term really i would expect.
and unless it's a gold plated bus lane then really a CPO for it is something i will believe when i actually hear it has happened. it won't be cheap either i'd imagine.
and all for what, a bit of paint on a road i'd imagine.

Deleted User wrote: »

First, not a high enough demand for that route for that to be a justification, second, are you honestly trying to say that a bus using the motorway from Tuam to Dublin is going to be slower than a train which will require a changeover in Athenry

of course there isn't a demand for it as it doesn't exist as an option.
certainly with a properly invested and up to scratch rail such a journey time would be competitive i would expect, even potentially faster then the motor way when eventually it is clogged up.

Deleted User wrote: »

Where's the demand for that to justify it?

taking the car, i would expect.

Deleted User wrote: »

Given that its possible to transport more bikes on a bus than the current trains that's just a silly justification

it's likely one of the suburban type units would be used to operate the rail service so taking a few bikes shouldn't b a problem at least if they are fold up.

Deleted User wrote: »

There are far better transport options which will take folks point to point, I know, I used them for many years.

it will depend on the individual and their circumstances.
it's not a guarantee that there are better transport options out there.

Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

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