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Relaxation of restrictions Part II

Tokyo

Continuation of the "Relaxation of restrictions" from here.

Please note that all mod warnings and threadbans carry through from the previous thread.

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ShadowTech

celt262 wrote: »

I don't think many of the staff would want to live their lives like that.

That's certainly possible but I think much of the argument that's going on in this thread and in the wider community is similar. Many people don't want to live lives like we're living now and there's no clear way of getting society back to near-normal.

If the government were to pay lavishly for this service and all expenses were taken care of, perhaps it would work and it would likely be less costly than the level of disruption the entire society is currently experiencing.

celt262

ShadowTech wrote: »

I've been wondering if there's a way to change the way we work with high risk communities like this. Why isn't it possible for the state to fully pay and care for nursing home staff's children / pets, etc. and have the staff stay in the nursing home for 2 weeks to a month at a time (thus creating a little bubble almost entirely unaffected by the outside world)? In the meantime the next round of staff could self-isolate for two weeks before they start their shift, be tested to double-check that they're clear, and then switch places with the previous staff.

I know this would require substantially more money and logistics than normal but we are already taking extraordinary actions that effect the population as a whole.

Edited to add: My fear long-term is that we will open society and community transmission will increase. At a certain point we will not really be able to close everything down again for economic reasons and then we may have failed both to protect our quality of life as well as to protect our most vulnerable.

I don't think many of the staff would want to live their lives like that.

pjohnson

Bobtheman wrote: »

Black market in hair dressing is all over the place. It's ok for Paschal Donohue. He has hardly any hair.

And that is why this has to continue!

ShadowTech

hmmm wrote: »

What good will that do when the staff live in the community, and the virus is circulating outside the nursing homes?

I've been wondering if there's a way to change the way we work with high risk communities like this. Why isn't it possible for the state to fully pay and care for nursing home staff's children / pets, etc. and have the staff stay in the nursing home for 2 weeks to a month at a time (thus creating a little bubble almost entirely unaffected by the outside world)? In the meantime the next round of staff could self-isolate for two weeks before they start their shift, be tested to double-check that they're clear, and then switch places with the previous staff.

I know this would require substantially more money and logistics than normal but we are already taking extraordinary actions that effect the population as a whole.

Edited to add: My fear long-term is that we will open society and community transmission will increase. At a certain point we will not really be able to close everything down again for economic reasons and then we may have failed both to protect our quality of life as well as to protect our most vulnerable.

Benimar

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Looks like in Germany you'll be able to go to a brothel soon but in Ireland you cant hug your family.... from the guardian.

"In Germany, all shops will reopen and amateur outdoor sports restart under certain conditions as part of an easing of lockdown measures, the federal government and states have agreed according to a draft document.

The paper seen by Reuters was prepared by federal chancellery chief Helge Braun and the heads of the regional chancelleries for a telephone conference Chancellor Angela Merkel is due to hold with premiers of the 16 states later today.

Dated 5 May, the document shows that based on infection levels, states will decide on their own about a gradual opening of universities, restaurants, bars, hotels, trade fairs, cosmetic studios, brothels, theatres, fitness studios, cinemas and discos all under certain hygiene and distancing concepts. States will also decide on limiting contact between people, it adds."

So, no dates or times for any of this? And it has to be agreed by the 16 states. Could you imagine the uproar if Leo had announced that!

A document dated May 5 means nothing, Ireland’s plan is dated May 1.

the kelt

Penfailed wrote: »

Yes. True. It's a issue in lots of countries that many on this thread would rather we follow. Some care homes in Spain were abandoned and the residents were left to fend for themselves...but Spain is great because their pubs are open soon.

But surely if other countries also had issues with nursing homes as is the case and can still get themselves in order enough to relax restrictions quicker than us then something doesn’t add up.

The “sure other countries had issues with nursing homes also” argument only holds up if they’re in the same position as ourselves in delaying the easing of restrictions compared to lots of others.

I’ve still yet to hear a coherent reason why we are so materially different to other countries that we have to delay to the extremes that we are compared to others, no one knows if we are right or wrong on that path but what makes us so different?

ixoy

Penfailed wrote: »

but Spain is great because their pubs are open soon.

Out of curiosity, can you point to all the posters who are primarily celebrating the fact that the pubs are opening soon in all these countries? As opposed to people pointing out all the other businesses and services that are opening.

road_high

Bobtheman wrote: »

Black market in hair dressing is all over the place. It's ok for Paschal Donohue. He has hardly any hair.

Cool, any idea where one might get one?

stephenjmcd

Looks like in Germany you'll be able to go to a brothel soon but in Ireland you cant hug your family.... from the guardian.

"In Germany, all shops will reopen and amateur outdoor sports restart under certain conditions as part of an easing of lockdown measures, the federal government and states have agreed according to a draft document.

The paper seen by Reuters was prepared by federal chancellery chief Helge Braun and the heads of the regional chancelleries for a telephone conference Chancellor Angela Merkel is due to hold with premiers of the 16 states later today.

Dated 5 May, the document shows that based on infection levels, states will decide on their own about a gradual opening of universities, restaurants, bars, hotels, trade fairs, cosmetic studios, brothels, theatres, fitness studios, cinemas and discos all under certain hygiene and distancing concepts. States will also decide on limiting contact between people, it adds."

Penfailed

kaymin wrote: »

Over 60% of deaths have been in nursing homes - this should never have happened. Our death rate would have been far far less except for the incompetence of our government and CMO.

Yes. True. It's a issue in lots of countries that many on this thread would rather we follow. Some care homes in Spain were abandoned and the residents were left to fend for themselves...but Spain is great because their pubs are open soon.

hmmm

Loozer wrote: »

Not sure about this^

The nursing home residents need to be isolated from the wider community, virus is going to spread in the community regardless

What good will that do when the staff live in the community, and the virus is circulating outside the nursing homes?

Penfailed

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Whatever it is in your opinion the guy is a GP who was elected to the Irish medical council by Simon Harris

GPs are human too. They can have divergent opinions about things. There's even a term used quite often in medicine. It's when someone asks for a 'second opinion'. You are using the opinion of a GP with whom you agree. I'm sure there are others that disagree.

Stark

July 20th (Phase 4) by the looks of it.

https://assets.gov.ie/73722/ffd17d70fbb64b498fd809dde548f411.pdf

Social and recreationOpening of hotels, hostels,
caravan parks, holiday parks
for social and tourist
activities initially on a
limited occupancy basis (or
number of people per
square metre) and then
increasing over time (and
where social distancing is
complied with). Hotel bars
remain closed

tombrown

This question has probably been answered already, but search isn't helping me find it, so here goes:

I have a holiday home that is let out for short stays. Obviously all current bookings (up until about mid June at the moment) are being cancelled and guests are getting a refund. AT which phase in the new plan can I start allowing guest rentals again

Jackman25

Deleted User wrote: »

HSE or not, That guy is a scaremongering, doomsday nut. I argued with him back in Jan/Feb when he was saying that 300000 Irish would die.

Seems he is massively backtracking now and yet still predicting numbers that just won’t happen if we properly protect care homes.

He also told people he had a 20% chance of dying if he caught Covid.

He also explained how he takes hours upon hours to decontaminate his groceries that get delivered.

Read the tone of his posts. Smacks of someone who thinks he is better than everyone in society. I ignored him long ago and so should you all.

I stopped reading after the following paragraph:

I also suggested in a post earlier in this thread that what would determine our death toll over the next year would be the balance that would have to be struck between acceptable casualties and economic/social activity. At the time I said that everyone was backing the lockdown but, unfortunately, as I expected, human nature, short-sightedness and selfishness are presenting themselves again and already a significant minority of people are openly admitted they're happy to return to normal so long as they're only killing other peoples' parents/grandparents.

Like something one of the loons or trolls on here would say. And bull**** also. Where has anyone openly admitted what he said here.

celt262

Nickindublin wrote: »

Didn’t they recommend the closure of playgrounds a full week before nursing homes. Absolute disgrace.

They cant close nursing homes.

Nickindublin

Bobtheman wrote: »

Black market in hair dressing is all over the place. It's ok for Paschal Donohue. He has hardly any hair.

That will be a massive problem. House to house to another house. 4 or 5 clients in one house.

Nermal

The chap who helped start the panic party, reneging on his promises.

https://twitter.com/JordanSchachtel/status/1257811977272950784

[Deleted User]

Bobtheman wrote: »

Black market in hair dressing is all over the place. It's ok for Paschal Donohue. He has hardly any hair.

He actually has a fantastic head of hair!

Nickindublin

celt262 wrote: »

How would you suggest the government could have kept it out of nursing homes? It has been a problem worldwide.

Didn’t they recommend the closure of playgrounds a full week before nursing homes. Absolute disgrace.

Penfailed

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Those unfortunate cases are extremely rare for anyone that age

Don't you think that there may be a correlation due to the fact that we've had a lockdown? Would they be less rare if we had carried on as normal? There's no way to tell though.

Bobtheman

Black market in hair dressing is all over the place. It's ok for Paschal Donohue. He has hardly any hair.

Nickindublin

Balf wrote: »

The last phase, 10 August. Before that, just shops with their own entrance

I don’t get this. Most shopping centres are open as pharmacy and supermarket operate in them.

snowcat

gozunda wrote: »

It does not matter whether you or anyone are mandated not to mix with he "over 70s". Their carers live in the wider community. There is no way that those in nursing homes (with the current issue of care home outbreaks) and other elderly people can totally effectively cocoon or completely socially isolate whilst staff and carers interact with them but also others in the wider community. There are calls for care staff to completely isolate but I've no idea whether that's totally realistic either.

But more importantly - the issue of Covid-19 is not only with the over 70s and those in care homes. Only half the current deaths can be attributed to this cohort. Vulneralbities exist across all age groups - whether asthma, diabetes or other long term illnesses. And the disease affects a significant proportion of otherwise healthy under 70 year olds and results in a significant number of those infected being hospitalised.

And precisely because of this - countries across the would have adopted restrictions to control the numbers of those infected and to prevent health services being overrun. This is not unique to Ireland btw. It is a fact that many other countries are further along with their restrictions and / or have varying demographics than us.

There is a lot that could be done with nursing homes to mitigate risk. Resources and testing should have been prioritised in those settings. Thousands of tests and capacity was wasted on the worried well. Test every health care worker and every resident daily for example. Essential visitors too.

celt262

kaymin wrote: »

Over 60% of deaths have been in nursing homes - this should never have happened. Our death rate would have been far far less except for the incompetence of our government and CMO.

How would you suggest the government could have kept it out of nursing homes? It has been a problem worldwide.

[Deleted User]

Arghus wrote: »

Most of you here would do well to read the words of the poster in this thread. A consultant in an Irish hospital, whose hard factual information has been extremely sobering over the last few weeks.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=113352900#post113352900

This answer to a question from earlier today, should shock some of you back to reality, but I doubt it at this stage:

HSE or not, That guy is a scaremongering, doomsday nut. I argued with him back in Jan/Feb when he was saying that 300000 Irish would die.

Seems he is massively backtracking now and yet still predicting numbers that just won’t happen if we properly protect care homes.

He also told people he had a 20% chance of dying if he caught Covid.

He also explained how he takes hours upon hours to decontaminate his groceries that get delivered.

Read the tone of his posts. Smacks of someone who thinks he is better than everyone in society. I ignored him long ago and so should you all.

Loozer

Arghus wrote: »

Big mistakes were made in the handling of the threat faced by nursing homes. I agree with you 100%.

But if we are concerned about the ongoing risk to nursing homes then we should all exercise extra caution in our attitude and behaviours, towards preventing further spread of the disease in the community. People from outside bring the disease into nursing homes and we all know know how dangerous it is for nursing home residents.

So if you want to do something as an individual to protect the future health of nursing home residents, well then be responsible in trying to curb the further spread of the virus in the wider community, which inevitably leads to further infection in care home and nursing home settings. Stick with the restrictions, don't give the virus a chance to spread.

Not sure about this^

The nursing home residents need to be isolated from the wider community, virus is going to spread in the community regardless

timmy_mallet

wrote:

To put it into perspective we would normally have about 31,000 dead in a 12 month period so that 15,000 would mean 46,000 dead in the 12 month period which is a roughly 50% spike in deaths. That is very significant.

Can anyone spot the gaping hole in that analysis?

Arghus

kaymin wrote: »

Over 60% of deaths have been in nursing homes - this should never have happened. Our death rate would have been far far less except for the incompetence of our government and CMO.

Big mistakes were made in the handling of the threat faced by nursing homes. I agree with you 100%.

But if we are concerned about the ongoing risk to nursing homes then we should all exercise extra caution in our attitude and behaviours, towards preventing further spread of the disease in the community. People from outside bring the disease into nursing homes and we all know know how dangerous it is for nursing home residents.

So if you want to do something as an individual to protect the future health of nursing home residents, well then be responsible in trying to curb the further spread of the virus in the wider community, which inevitably leads to further infection in care home and nursing home settings. Stick with the restrictions, don't give the virus a chance to spread.

lawrencesummers

Pitch n Putt wrote: »

Yeah true and that’ll be €250 for the consultation , thank very much sir.

From the same consultants that refused to assist with the Covid crisis.

Don’t forget cash only, we don’t want to be taking debit or credit cards because then you run the risk of having to pay tax on all your income.