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Relaxation of restrictions Part II

Tokyo

Continuation of the "Relaxation of restrictions" from here.

Please note that all mod warnings and threadbans carry through from the previous thread.

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expectationlost

iamwhoiam wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/cabinet-overruled-health-officials-on-advice-that-over-70s-should-keep-cocooning-until-august-39181325.html

Health officials advised that over-70s should keep cocooning in their homes until August but were overruled by the Cabinet.

The National Public Health Emergency Team (Nphet) recommended that cocooning advice for older and vulnerable people should remain in place for the next three months. The advice was included in the original version of the roadmap for reopening the country.

However, after a debate at Cabinet, ministers decided to remove the recommendation from the Government's 'Roadmap for Reopening Society and Business'.

In my opinion NPHET showed a complete disregard for the mental and physical health of the over 70's with that advice .By August anyone cocooning would have serious issues with mental health and with physical ability and many with anxiety and severe lonliness
And so that NPHET would look good and the numbers would look good they were willing to throw a whole generation under the bus for it

they think more of that cohort will die, its not about looking good.

anyway they allowed for the advise not to be taken in their letter https://assets.gov.ie/73788/5d0c9cc4619c4f59877bf3f6e7a14afb.pdf

Penfailed

bloodless_coup wrote: »

NPHET have lost the run of themselves. This is a coup!

No. It's not.

ChelseaRentBoy

Some of the stuff on here is ridiculous. A coup today, yesterday a poster compared the current government to the nazis and others have classified us as a police state.

Surely people aren't serious with this stuff?

hmmm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

And apparently lucky they are "allowed" to from today - it seems Dr Tony and co wanted to keep them locked in until August and possibly longer per the Indo this morning, but they were overruled by the Cabinet
.

It's difficult to know what people want on this thread at times.

On the one hand we are supposed to protect the at-risk groups and let everyone else go about their business, but then we are also opposed to asking over-70s to stay at home?

We give out about empty hospitals being prepared for large amounts of Covid patients, while at the same time we think the risk is overstated and we should just get out and about spreading it.

We give out about the number of deaths in nursing homes, while at the same time appear happy to accept large numbers of deaths as the price for reopening everything.

I saw a Harvard doctor being interviewed on TV recently when talking about Trump and his supporters pushing for reopening before the virus was under control. He simply asked would the supporters of this approach have the courage to say exactly how many deaths in patients and hospital staff they were happy to accept as the price of this rush to reopen.

Penfailed

ChelseaRentBoy wrote: »

Some of the stuff on here is ridiculous. A coup today, yesterday a poster compared the current government to the nazis and others have classified us as a police state.

Surely people aren't serious with this stuff?

They are serious in their own heads and it comes out in their postings. None of that makes it true though.

Cork Boy 53

bloodless_coup wrote: »

NPHET have lost the run of themselves. This is a coup!

If anyone on boards knows about coups it should be you.

Ginger n Lemon

DubInMeath wrote: »

Do you have a link to this?

The Imperial College team estimates that if the virus went completely unchallenged, around 80% of people would be infected and there would be around 510,000 deaths.

So, roughly speaking, we might say that getting COVID-19 is like packing a year’s worth of risk into a week or two. Which is why it’s important to spread out the infections to avoid the NHS being overwhelmed

The imperial college team's estimate, that has not been peer reviewed or scientifically published, assumes same hospital capacity. You have to be barking mad to assume same hospital capacity in event of a pandemic, it increases four fold if not more with all the extra bets ventilators purchased etc.

You can not conveniently quote 1 thing from the article and leave out below

"Many people who die of COVID would have died anyway within a short period — and so these risks cannot be simply added, and it does not simply double the risk of people who get infected. "

PS. You should NOT look at imperial college model. Imperial college estimated 65 000 deaths from Swine flu in UK alone. 392 people died in UK from Swineflu. This is a fact. Fact my friend. Fact is 100% accurate. Imperial college models are 80% + INACCURATE.

Cork Boy 53

ChelseaRentBoy wrote: »

Some of the stuff on here is ridiculous. A coup today, yesterday a poster compared the current government to the nazis and others have classified us as a police state.

Surely people aren't serious with this stuff?

Many of them are trolls or windup merchants but there also seem to be some sad characters who truly believe this to be a fact.

the kelt

ChelseaRentBoy wrote: »

Some of the stuff on here is ridiculous. A coup today, yesterday a poster compared the current government to the nazis and others have classified us as a police state.

Surely people aren't serious with this stuff?

No worse than a certain regular poster on here who compared anyone breaking restrictions to French Nazi Collaborators from World War 2!

_Kaiser_

hmmm wrote: »

It's difficult to know what people want on this thread at times.

On the one hand we are supposed to protect the at-risk groups and let everyone else go about their business, but then we are also opposed to asking over-70s to stay at home?

We give out about empty hospitals being prepared for large amounts of Covid patients, while at the same time we think the risk is overstated and we should just get out and about spreading it.

We give out about the number of deaths in nursing homes, while at the same time appear happy to accept large numbers of deaths as the price for reopening everything.

I saw a Harvard doctor being interviewed on TV recently when talking about Trump and his supporters pushing for reopening before the virus was under control. He simply asked would the supporters of this approach have the courage to say exactly how many deaths in patients and hospital staff they were happy to accept as the price of this rush to reopen.

How about this?

"OK folks, here's the facts. This is a serious situation where you are at a very real risk of becoming sick or even dying in some cases. But thankfully those cases are very rare overall and can be reduced further by taking precautions such as social distancing, increased hygiene and using common sense.

If you have an underlying illness, are over 70, or worried about your own situation, do contact your family GP for advice. It may in those cases be better to limit outside interactions entirely or unless absolutely necessary.
However, the good news is that the vast majority of people are not at high risk here. That's not to say you can become complacent - you still need to use cop on, take precautions and avoid unnecessary interactions with the at risk people I mentioned above - but you can move about, work, and interact under those conditions.

Again though, in all cases people need to be careful, use common sense and look after yourselves and others"

Not quite Leo's speechwriter quality but you get the idea

Crocked

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

The imperial college team's estimate, that has not been peer reviewed or scientifically published, assumes same hospital capacity. You have to be barking mad to assume same hospital capacity in event of a pandemic, it increases four fold if not more with all the extra bets ventilators purchased etc.

You can not conveniently quote 1 thing from the article and leave out below

"Many people who die of COVID would have died anyway within a short period — and so these risks cannot be simply added, and it does not simply double the risk of people who get infected. "

PS. You should NOT look at imperial college model. Imperial college estimated 65 000 deaths from Swine flu in UK alone. 392 people died in UK from Swineflu. This is a fact. Fact my friend. Fact is 100% accurate. Imperial college models are 80% + INACCURATE.

Where are all the highly trained, skilled staff coming from to operate the extra ventilators and manage all the people in those beds you've magic'd up?

lawrencesummers

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Its not who I would have its what. Transparency. I want someone who will answer questions and provide justification as to why Ireland will be the most restricted country in Europe this Summer

Then why don’t you take issue with his boss for allowing him To operate in such a way?

Seamai

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The Irish government and CMO are inflicting far more long drawn out restrictions than nearly any other country in the world! Why are garden centres not already open? Why is golf not starting for another 2 weeks, one of the most socially distanced sports on the planet? (I'm not a golfer), Why is there no mention of dentists anywhere?? This is a medical service, it is essential to the health of so many people. Why are we restricted to no further than 20km until 20th July? That's 2 months away - this is insanity! What exactly are we basing our never ending lockdown on? No other country is doing this!
How dare 2 "experts" talk to Pat Kenny this morning on Newstalk and say most people are very happy to continue with these restrictions (!) and some are even reluctant to return to work (has €350 a week anything to do with that?).

Jacinta Ardern NZ Prime Minister last night specifically mentioned Ireland (in disbelief) saying some countries like Ireland were going for VERY long restrictions and NZ's plan was getting their economy back up and running much sooner.
https://extra.ie/2020/05/04/news/world-news/new-zealand-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-calls-out-irelands-five-phase-covid-19-strategy

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/newzealand-ireland-coronavirus-lockdown-lifting-21972612

With all due respect to Ardern, it's easy to be smug when you are living in one of the world's most isolated countries. Our geography and demographics make for a very different situation. She's planning to only allow Australians to visit the country for the foreseeable future. I wonder how the country's tourism chiefs will feel about that in a few months time.

hmmm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

However, the good news is that the vast majority of people are not at high risk here. That's not to say you can become complacent - you still need to use cop on, take precautions and avoid unnecessary interactions with the at risk people I mentioned above - but you can move about, work, and interact under those conditions.

Again though, in all cases people need to be careful, use common sense and look after yourselves and others"[/I]

Not quite Leo's speechwriter quality but you get the idea

Your big plan is instead of telling people what they should be doing in the face of a new pandemic, you're going to tell them to use "cop on" and "common sense"?

OK.

leahyl

Delighted to see my dad heading out for a walk again after 5 weeks at home....he used to go to the local park up until they asked the over 70's to cocoon and happy to see him now able to go again

He doesn't complain but I know he really missed it and it was affecting his mental health, so this will make a huge difference to him.

Ginger n Lemon

Crocked wrote: »

Where are all the highly trained, skilled staff coming from to operate the extra ventilators and manage all the people in those beds you've magic'd up?

Is ICU overwhelmed? are hospitals overwhelmed? In Ireland - no.

In Wuhan they were, so they build 1600 bed hospital in 11 days.

In UK they turned stadiums and large venues into temporary hospitals/beds 4000 beds in blink of an eye. They are empty now btw and have never been utilised, because coronavirus is just not as deadly or contagious as some people in this thread will make you believe it is. And if you say otherwise, they ll say you have an agenda against 70 year olds...

Cork Boy 53

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

How about this?

"OK folks, here's the facts. This is a serious situation where you are at a very real risk of becoming sick or even dying in some cases. But thankfully those cases are very rare overall and can be reduced further by taking precautions such as social distancing, increased hygiene and using common sense.

If you have an underlying illness, are over 70, or worried about your own situation, do contact your family GP for advice. It may in those cases be better to limit outside interactions entirely or unless absolutely necessary.
However, the good news is that the vast majority of people are not at high risk here. That's not to say you can become complacent - you still need to use cop on, take precautions and avoid unnecessary interactions with the at risk people I mentioned above - but you can move about, work, and interact under those conditions.

Again though, in all cases people need to be careful, use common sense and look after yourselves and others"

Not quite Leo's speechwriter quality but you get the idea

Unfortunately the problem with using the term common sense is that this may not be as common as many would like to think as I know from personal experience.

Keyzer

road_high wrote: »

I agree very much - CJH was before my time but very much the anthesis of the “woke” brigade of which Leo would be a poster child. He’d have used his bloody common sense in tandem with the economic realities

Lol...

Utterly ridiculous comment. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

CJH would have sold the PPE back his own government with a 1000% margin making a fortune for himself.

[Deleted User]

bloodless_coup wrote: »

NPHET have lost the run of themselves. This is a coup!

NPHET recommended over 70's to remain in until August, cabinet rejected it and did not include in guidance - great coup

irishgeo

The dates for opening up the country are not set in stone. They can be moved up or back.

We been playing it safe from day one and egging on the fear factor but it's seems to be working.

Gynoid

ChelseaRentBoy wrote: »

Some of the stuff on here is ridiculous. A coup today, yesterday a poster compared the current government to the nazis and others have classified us as a police state.

Surely people aren't serious with this stuff?

Hahaha yes

I visit this thread to give my eyebrows some exercise.

_Kaiser_

hmmm wrote: »

Your big plan is instead of telling people what they should be doing in the face of a new pandemic, you're going to tell them to use "cop on" and "common sense"?

OK.

Yep because as is increasingly evident, the response and measures (while appropriate initially) is now increasingly disproportionate to the level of risk that exists - risk that can be managed separately while allowing the majority to get back to the essential activities they and a country depend on.

I'm not buying the hysteria and "think of the children" style hyperbole. Nor am I particularly interested in listening to the lockdown police online who seem to be revelling in what would normally be restricted to twitter ranting and trying to shut down discussions about "controversial" topics otherwise

iamwhoiam

expectationlost wrote: »

they think more of that cohort will die, its not about looking good.

anyway they allowed for the advise not to be taken in their letter https://assets.gov.ie/73788/5d0c9cc4619c4f59877bf3f6e7a14afb.pdf

There would be many deaths apart from Covid if they were to cocoon until August .

hmmm

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

In UK they turned stadiums and large venues into temporary hospitals/beds 4000 beds in blink of an eye. They are empty now btw and have never been utilised, because coronavirus is just not as deadly or contagious as some people in this thread will make you believe it is. And if you say otherwise, they ll say you have an agenda against 70 year olds...

Completely wrong. This virus is around 3 times more infectious than the Flu.

The actions we have taken have slowed the spread - without those actions we would have been a Wuhan, Iran or Ecuador.

If you're going to look for restrictions to be lifted, you need to at least live in reality when proposing what should be done first.

Ginger n Lemon

hmmm wrote: »

If you implemented your above plan, and hospital admissions shot up in week 3, you'd have to roll back 2 phases. I would think for many businesses preparing to open, and being shut a few weeks later, would finish them off. It would also hugely damage consumer confidence.

The virus can take up to 14 days to incubate for most people. Hospitalisation is typically around 7 days later - that's where the 3 weeks comes from.

By doing this in 3 week phases, we will know exactly which group of changes have caused a rise in the number of cases, and we hopefully only have to roll back one phase at most.

Well, if you do Leo's plan and we gradually, slowly open up, we will have plenty of consumer confidence. And no businesses for those consumers to go to except for large shops or Amazon.

Cina

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Is ICU overwhelmed? are hospitals overwhelmed? In Ireland - no.

In Wuhan they were, so they build 1600 bed hospital in 11 days.

In UK they turned stadiums and large venues into temporary hospitals/beds 4000 beds in blink of an eye. They are empty now btw and have never been utilised, because coronavirus is just not as deadly or contagious as some people in this thread will make you believe it is. And if you say otherwise, they ll say you have an agenda against 70 year olds...

They're not overhwhelmed because we went into lockdown.

Have you seen Italy? Or the US? Prime examples of what happens when countries didn't do what we did early enough.

The problem is that people like you see the lower death rates and assume that means the virus isn't actually as deadly as we've been told, despite those low death rates only being there because we've all been under strict f*cking lockdowns. Maybe they do need to open everything up again for a while so you lot can see what will happen if this virus is left unchecked.

Coronoavirus has already been proven to be extremely infectious, with much higher mortality rates than the flu yet you still get people claiming it's not as bad as it's made out to be. mental. It's amazing how the internet brigade seemingly know more than most top scientists and doctors worldwide. Fair play to ye.

uli84

irishgeo wrote: »

The dates for opening up the country are not set in stone. They can be moved up or back.

We been playing it safe from day one and egging on the fear factor but it's seems to be working.

Really? Who said that the dates could be moved up?

easypazz

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Is ICU overwhelmed? are hospitals overwhelmed? In Ireland - no.

In Wuhan they were, so they build 1600 bed hospital in 11 days.

In UK they turned stadiums and large venues into temporary hospitals/beds 4000 beds in blink of an eye. They are empty now btw and have never been utilised, because coronavirus is just not as deadly or contagious as some people in this thread will make you believe it is. And if you say otherwise, they ll say you have an agenda against 70 year olds...

Wuhan ~11m
London ~14m (metro area)
Dublin ~ 1.4m

If we were overwhelmed like Wuhan then the extra beds needed would be in the hundreds, so between citywest and the private hospitals if this came around again we would be well positioned to deal with it effectively.

easypazz

uli84 wrote: »

Really? Who said that the dates could be moved up?

Written in the plan.

stephenjmcd

"The Department of Social Protection will continue to support workers until they go back to work, a government Minister has said.

However, Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection, Regina Doherty also warned that the current payments would not sustainable in the long term."

The times and the examiner cover the above quotes this morning, with ministers saying stuff like that you'll see more and more businesses looking to open up well before the current road map allows