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Relaxation of restrictions Part II

Tokyo

Continuation of the "Relaxation of restrictions" from here.

Please note that all mod warnings and threadbans carry through from the previous thread.

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easypazz

Penfailed wrote: »

Of course I didn't. You're being facetious. It wasn't 'social media hysteria'.

"Everywhere" was jammed

Not so, plenty of places were fine.

Don't be making claims if they are not true.

easypazz

Penfailed wrote: »

I'm pointing out that lots of countries are having issues with nursing homes. You're fixated with the HSE and what happened in SOME nursing homes in Ireland.

That's because Ireland is the place that matters, how or why other countries handled things is not relevant.

From what I can see, if it hadn't been allowed spread through nursing homes then we would have largely missed this and be comparable to New Zealand.

I won't praise Holohan or the HSE for how they handled this.

Theboinkmaster

ChikiChiki wrote: »

"lockdown is killing more people than CV 19, that is obvious"

You posted that statement. Back it up with the fact.

I disagree with it because it is a blatent lie.

COVID-19 has only killed about 1,200 in Ireland - over half of which were people in nursing homes on borrowed time anyway.

Compared to lockdown impact:

- people not going to ER/doctors
- people not being let into hospitals for required treatments e.g. cancer
- childline call volume +20%
- violence against women call volume +25%
- suicides due to social isolation and economic recession
- people dropping healthcare due to economic recession
- cuts in health service budgets next year and year after due to economic recession

Think it's pretty obvious.

JRant

road_high wrote: »

I think there was a large element of "hope for the best" as with all very reactionary measures- you hope they'll blow over.

It reminds me of the quote from Indian Jones
"We have our top men working on it, top top men"

At the beginning it was prudent to err on the side of caution and lock things down. We know an awful lot more now than we did then so there's absolutely no excuse for the poor planning and communication we have seen this past couple of weeks.

growleaves

Deleted User wrote: »

Sweden have not done nothing.

I'm aware of that.

In addition they tend to comply with the directives that are there, have a good sense of social responsibility and there fore wont head to the bar when not feeling feel

In fact local authorities in Stockholm had to forcibly close down cafes, bars and restaurants who weren't observing social distancing. Human nature is the same everywhere.

The cliche that Irish people naturally misbehave unlike Europeans/Northern Europeans/Germans/Swedes (delete as appropriate) is now the justification for turning Ireland into a halting site of ever-impoverished people.

and they tend to live alone a lot more than most places in Europe. The Swedish model is not a picture of what would have happened here if we did nothing

I didn't counsel doing nothing.

I object to the sensational claims made on behalf of the lockdown which are unproven. The response is always lame excuses about Swedish culture.

the kelt

easypazz wrote: »

Did you visit them all yourself and do an audit?

How do you know "everywhere" was jammed?

As someone who works in an area that would have control over a lot of these car parks everywhere certainly wasnt jammed.

Glendalough was an issue along with a few others but the biggest issue was a bit of education for people to look past google and picking out area number 1,2 and 3 and going with those.

It seemed like people had just discovered wow theres areas you can go for nice walks in, i know lets just pick the most popular. What was offered at the time was that the most popular places could be locked up and that communicated which wasnt seen as necessary.

But for the most part no not jammed everywhere

JRant

growleaves wrote: »

I'm aware of that.

In fact local authorities in Stockholm had to forcibly close down cafes, bars and restaurants who weren't observing social distancing. Human nature is the same everywhere.

The cliche that Irish people naturally misbehave unlike Europeans/Northern Europeans/Germans/Swedes (delete as appropriate) is now the justification for turning Ireland into a halting site of ever-impoverished people.

I didn't counsel doing nothing.

I object to the sensational claims made on behalf of the lockdown which are unproven. The response is always lame excuses about Swedish culture.

It's almost like those countries treat their citizens like adults. Instead of blank bans because of a few naughty people they punish those responsible. Imagine that.

Rodin

GazzaL wrote: »

Not only have I put forward suggestions and ideas, I've taken action too. There are loads of businesses out there who are ready to open up, they've got hand sanitiser, PPE, social distancing plans etc. We need to be pragmatic and safe.

My local Aldi has hand sanitiser at the front door.
How many hands that have touched it before me is acceptable ?

hmmm

SusieBlue wrote: »

Very little human contact is needed to operate these kinds of facilities so there is no reason why they should not be allowed reopen on Tuesday. They absolutely are an essential service and they should never have had to close in the first place.

I agree with you that if something requires little contact it should remain open (essential or not, this isn't a penance). In fairness I don't think we had time with the speed the virus moved to get into the nitty gritty of which businesses should remain open or not, it was a fairly broad brush approach ("health and food stay open, rest close if you can't work from home").

You'd hope that for the next stage we will have good guidelines and a looser approach for businesses which can sensibly remain open with little contact - and I expect we will get those guidelines.

JRant

the kelt wrote: »

As someone who works in an area that would have control over a lot of these car parks everywhere certainly wasnt jammed.

Glendalough was an issue along with a few others but the biggest issue was a bit of education for people to look past google and picking out area number 1,2 and 3 and going with those.

It seemed like people had just discovered wow theres areas you can go for nice walks in, i know lets just pick the most popular. What was offered at the time was that the most popular places could be locked up and that communicated which wasnt seen as necessary.

But for the most part no not jammed everywhere

Exactly, before the lockdown we visited a few lovely Forrest walks in and around Laois. Met probably 10 people in the 3 hours we were there.

[Deleted User]

easypazz wrote: »

That's because Ireland is the place that matters, how or why other countries handled things is not relevant.

From what I can see, if it hadn't been allowed spread through nursing homes then we would have largely missed this and be comparable to New Zealand.

I won't praise Holohan or the HSE for how they handled this.

It wasn't allowed spread. It spread like wildfire from the hundred's of thousands of people who came in and out of this country from areas of infection from beginning of February to mid March. In comparison to a trickle to New Zealand where they did not take any action any earlier than we did. By the time we and multiple other countries took action some nursing homes were riddled. New Zealand were seeded at a much lower level and reacted at the same pace as comparable countries including Ireland. They subsequently had a excellent campaign to almost eliminate new cases, but it is nothing like to situation that Europe faced.

boring accountant

Penfailed wrote: »

It wasn't though. Everywhere was jammed.

Even if it were true it’s likely that the numbers out visiting these spots would have normalised if people had been allowed visit them the entire time. Much like the numbers queuing to get into Tesco have normalised and the availability of certain food items has normalised too.

This was a knee jerk response to mass hysteria and we’re all suffering unnecessarily because of it.

road_high

Penfailed wrote: »

Donegal was rammed.

Donegal has one large town that no tourists even go to. The rest has a very low population density- it wasn't "rammed". It's not Singapore.

JRant

Rodin wrote: »

My local Aldi has hand sanitiser at the front door.
How many hands that have touched it before me is acceptable ?

Who cares, the trick is to sanitize your hands after you touch it. Basic stuff really.

thegetawaycar

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

COVID-19 has only killed about 1,200 in Ireland - over half of which were people in nursing homes on borrowed time anyway.

Compared to lockdown impact:

- people not going to ER/doctors
- people not being let into hospitals for required treatments e.g. cancer
- childline call volume +20%
- violence against women call volume +25%
- suicides due to social isolation and economic recession
- people dropping healthcare due to economic recession
- cuts in health service budgets next year and year after due to economic recession

Think it's pretty obvious.

Holy ****, whatever about the rest of your post, the part in bold is striking.

Also, just to counteract, how much down are traffic accidents, assaults (a huge portion happen after nights out), shoplifting etc...
I also believe (and know of more than one) people are still attending cancer treatments.
Doctors are still open, I was at one recently. People are making a choice not to go, due to fear of the virus as opposed to due to lockdown.
The call volumes are shocking and is a harrowing result of the lockdown agreed.
The last 3 are future issues that remain to be seen and can't be quantified yet.

showpony1

Will we get an update on gyms and barbers this weekend?

SNNUS

Rodin wrote: »

My local Aldi has hand sanitiser at the front door.
How many hands that have touched it before me is acceptable ?

It does not matter how many hands touch it, you touch it and sanitize your hands! Unless you stick your finger up your nose after touching it before sanitizing your hands you should be safe..

road_high

showpony1 wrote: »

Will we get an update on gyms and barbers this weekend?

The update will be no but lots of generic uplifting soundbites to cover over the inaction. A pat on the head from the Taoiseach for those that want one.

Thelonious Monk

showpony1 wrote: »

Will we get an update on gyms and barbers this weekend?

Gyms will surely be one of the last things to open. Don't worry about it, everyone else is terribly out of shape too.

Rodin

JRant wrote: »

Who cares, the trick is to sanitize your hands after you touch it. Basic stuff really.

I don't believe in a communal hand sanitiser that needs to be touched by fingers.

I don't even think it's the right concentration of alcohol.

kwestfan08

SusieBlue wrote: »

I see a few TD’s are pleading with Leo & Simon to allow animal grooming facilities open on the 5th.

My own dog has a coat that requires grooming every 6 weeks, he was booked in for mid March but the appointment was cancelled because animal groomers were not considered to be an essential service & they had to close.
My poor fella is so overdue a grooming at this stage that he’s absolutely miserable, I can’t even take him for long walks on warm days any more because he’s overheating from the weight of his fur.
He can barely see, his eyes are so overgrown in long hair. I already tried to get at him with a razor but he wouldn’t let me near him. We have taken to tying the fur on top of his head into a ponytail to keep it out of his eyes and face.
He’s very uncomfortable and needs to be seen to asap.

Very little human contact is needed to operate these kinds of facilities so there is no reason why they should not be allowed reopen on Tuesday. They absolutely are an essential service and they should never have had to close in the first place.

Ahhh jaysus. Dog groomers an essential service? Would ya stop.

Penfailed

easypazz wrote: »

"Everywhere" was jammed

Not so, plenty of places were fine.

Don't be making claims if they are not true.

Did you visit them all yourself and do an audit?

How do you know plenty of places were fine?

I don't really want an answer to those questions by the way. I know you didn't do an audit as you also know that I didn't. We're going around in circles and will have to agree to disagree. Anecdotally, places were jammed. You can also say that anecdotally, they weren't. It wasn't just social media hysteria though. It was on the news and in the papers.

easypazz

the kelt wrote: »

As someone who works in an area that would have control over a lot of these car parks everywhere certainly wasnt jammed.

Glendalough was an issue along with a few others but the biggest issue was a bit of education for people to look past google and picking out area number 1,2 and 3 and going with those.

It seemed like people had just discovered wow theres areas you can go for nice walks in, i know lets just pick the most popular. What was offered at the time was that the most popular places could be locked up and that communicated which wasnt seen as necessary.

But for the most part no not jammed everywhere

Its the same when there is a belting sunny Sunday in summer. The people who go to the sea once or twice a year, all head to the same places, and they are rammed.

Plenty of other places where there is never overcrowding, the plebs just don't know where to go.

After over running Glendalough they were the same type that all jammed McDonalds drive thru when they heard it was closing, panic bought all around them in supermarkets etc.

Infini

Honestly I'm not expecting any changes bar maybe some construction sites coming back online this weekend the new case numbers are still triple digits, until they fall into the low 20's or single digits I can only see this lasting another 2 weeks at least, it sucks for people I know it's that feeling of "cabin fever" getting some they want some normalacy again or at least some progress but it would be better to keep going 2 more weeks to choke the life outta this thing than reopen too soon and see a repeat of the whole thing. Better to do it right the first time and endure it.

Also doesn't help we've been getting the good weather we deserve at the worst possible time, I really wish it had been pissing rain most days it would've helped alot to discourage people going out.

Breezin

thegetawaycar wrote: »

I just want to question 2 points 1. What do you believe "Let the rest of us get on with out lives responsibly, and free of this childish naughty step politics." means to you?

It means that our authorities take more trouble than simply applying a hammer to the entire population, accompanied by patronising rhetoric about it being our own fault. Right now it's not about fault, but if it is, we should be looking at what they are trying to compensate for in the extreme measures currently in place. We will be looking back at this in years to come and the extremity of the government's actions will be at issue.

The old "normal" is gone and we aren't going back to it for a long time, the travel abroad we are used to is unlikely to reappear in the near future, attending sporting events too, pubs and restaurants (unless they can adhere to social distancing (including the number of staff in the kitchen preparing it) will remain closed for a long time.

Most people know and understand that a return to complete normality in the short term is not an option. It doesn't mean we shouldn't question every measure in the context of its social and economic cost. Very few here are arguing for a total lifting of restrictions, something largely overlooked by lockdowners looking to debate at the extremes. We should look to the Swedish response, which has its own thread, and which addresses the issue of personal and public responsibility.

2. "Police the hot spots, and those blatantly flouting the key restrictions." What are the Key restrictions and if the lockdown laws aren't in place as we are letting people "get on with" our lives, then what exactly are they enforcing?

This also addresses the notion that we all are culpable when in fact there have been a relatively modest number of incidents in predictable places. The key restrictions are those concerned with physical distancing. Instead of focusing on the offenders, we are treated to collective punishment, in line with the official rhetoric, with blanket restrictions on reasonable movement outside 2km, on who people can meet, and on who can work and trade.

Everyone suffers hugely because a few groups can't bring themselves to comply with simple precautions and even seem determined to flout them.

SNNUS

Rodin wrote: »

I don't believe in a communal hand sanitiser that needs to be touched by fingers.

I don't even think it's the right concentration of alcohol.

Bring your own then, this is very basic stuff, you will never get past the baby steps without common sense.

alwald

easypazz wrote: »

Why are you asking me to explain what happened in foreign countries?

How on earth would I know?

Let me get this straight, when you blame Holohan/government you like to compare Ireland to other countries for which you can't explain what's happening.

I am not having a go at you I just want to understand the credibility of your posts here

easypazz

Penfailed wrote: »

Did you visit them all yourself and do an audit?

How do you know plenty of places were fine?

I don't really want an answer to those questions by the way. I know you didn't do an audit as you also know that I didn't. We're going around in circles and will have to agree to disagree. Anecdotally, places were jammed. You can also say that anecdotally, they weren't. It wasn't just social media hysteria though. It was on the news and in the papers.

You made a sweeping statement everywhere was jammed.

Not true.

Long_Wave

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Gyms will surely be one of the last things to open. Don't worry about it, everyone else is terribly out of shape too.

Gyms are being opened up in America

road_high

Penfailed wrote: »

Did you visit them all yourself and do an audit?

How do you know plenty of places were fine?

I don't really want an answer to those questions by the way. I know you didn't do an audit as you also know that I didn't. We're going around in circles and will have to agree to disagree. Anecdotally, places were jammed. You can also say that anecdotally, they weren't. It wasn't just social media hysteria though. It was on the news and in the papers.

With a “#stayatthefcukathome” on their social media. Usually classy educated birds